The Koran - have you read it?

[MariaS]

So Richard, in other words, the Qur'an teaches that Jesus was just a human decendant of David? Isn't this the same thing that Paul's words teach? Perhaps the only difference here is that Paul said that Jesus became the Son of God when he was reserected by God.

The Qur'an as a Muslim bible came into existance after the New Testament so Muslims do not believe in Paul's words--such as Jesus was the Atonement for the sins of everyone.

I do find it interesting that the Qur'an teaches that Jesus as a true prophet, but herein is the problem--how can they say Jesus is a true prophet and then not believe in the very words of Jesus given to us by the eyewitnesses?

The writer of the Qur'an was not an eyewitness and neither was Paul. It therefore is amazing that two major religions were started from people claiming to be sent by God, but neither one has anyone to verify if this was true and neither one ever knew Jesus.

Daniel's prophecy about the King of the North and the King of the South sure fit both of these.

The way Quran sees Jesus and Paul taught are not the same.

Muslim believe that Muhammad was the last prophet, they were taught that the teaching of the previous prophet including Jesus were incomplete, therfore Allah (God) raise another last prophet to show the way for his people.

An SDA pastor who have studied the Quran extensively said that the containt of the Quran, about 75% were actually directing/pointing the followers to Isah Al Maseh (Jesus Christ) and only 25% were directing to Muhammad. They even believe that Jesus is the coming Judge in the end of the world.

I have the Quran translated into english in my home library but did not finish reading it.

I learn Muslim teaching when I was in Hight school as this made compulsory to all Malaysian students in those days. Believe it or not, I always got distinction as to compare with the Muslim students..haha

I am in agreement to much of what Gerry and Richard said regarding Muslim teaching. As far as what I knew being in the country that Muslim as its official religion, they have the closest to what I knew from Fellow Muslim friends.

[LifeHiscost]

We are talking about one of the largest religions in the world here. If they wanted Christians dead we would be.

I take it you don't believe the Holy Bible. King James Version.

"Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness,

Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.

A thousand may fall at your side,

And ten thousand at your right hand;

But it shall not come near you.

Only with your eyes shall you look,

And see the reward of the wicked. "Psalm 91:6-8 NKJV

I realize the context is centered around pestilence, but;

"Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more (take care) clothe you, O you of little faith?"Matthew 6:30 NKJV

Blessings!!

[Gerr]

Victorious Charles Martel in the battle of Tours checked the northward forcible European expansion of Islam from North Africa and Spain.

[Gerr]

I am far from reading the Koran all the way through. So far I haven't come across that it is ok to lie. Do you know where that reference is?

Also where did Paul say it's ok to lie?

[MariaS]

Believe it or not, in the 80s, the goverment in Malaysia were trying to convert all Malaysian into Muslim by giving them some sort of fund with the agreement that they will take an oat to be a Muslim.

I was very young at that time, my parents and many more in the village took the oat for the sake of the fund. Many Mix marriages between the native and new convert of Muslim produces lots of problem with the welfare of their children.

The one that I know very well, many SDA wives raise their kids as an SDA though they carries a Muslim identities.This produces inconvenience later when the children are grown up and attended college and courting an SDA man. They need to go to court with many after discussion with long processes just to get rid of their Muslim Identity. But a born Muslim actually were not allowed to make an apeal to any court, over here once comes to Muslim even the high court are not allowed to question the syariah law. Muslim who leave their faith is considered heretic and they deserve death.

Thank God my family's name were clear from the record of Malaysia goverment and all of my family members were not registered as Muslim. I am not sure what happen back than when my parents accepted the goverment fund.

The funny things were, the villages who took the oat to take Muslim teaching were only aiming for the goverment fund I guess. I said so becuase they attended church as usual and never leave their Christian belief. I learn from few trustable source that many Muslim actually practices Christianity and even me myself have given some Bible study to some Muslim..of course its a secret Bible study.

We got to be companionate, as what SOP said there are from other flock who are save into the kingdom of God, I do believe that some Muslim will be save too.

[MariaS]

I am far from reading the Koran all the way through. So far I haven't come across that it is ok to lie. Do you know where that reference is?

Also where did Paul say it's ok to lie?

I also never come accrost to both in my reading. Dr Rich, do you mind to share where did you got the idea?

But bare in mind though, Muslim's teaching is, its ok to kill for the sake of their religion. They were instructed not to distroy children and women but to kill in "Jihad" and believe they will be rewarded in Heaven..that is the reason there are lots of suicidal bombing. Jesus must be very sad looking at all the suicidal bombing that had kill many. Sad Sad Sad..

[Mom E]

This is an interesting thread to me! I haven't read through the Quran myself, but I've read many passages in it, especially some of the controversial ones...

I have also lived in a number of countries where I've gotten to know Muslims from quite a variety of other countries on a personal basis.

I really enjoy the original poster's sharing - simply what he has found from his own personal study of the Quran.

What I don't understand is why many people expect that Muslims would all believe/obey just what the Quran says any more than Christians believe/obey just what the Bible says... I find there is a great inconsistency in both situations - so why do we point the finger at them, when maybe (as a Christian whole), the log is in our own eye...

I also have found it very interesting to find several following posters quoting what they've heard from others about Islam's beliefs. In the current climate, a lot of what you hear about Islam is what the extremists believe, not mainstream Islam...

And at first glance, some passages in the Quran do seem to say some of those things - but not in the context of the whole book - just as some things in the Bible can/are stretched out of context and misused/misquoted...

Just a few thoughts at the moment...

[Gail]

Thank you for your thoughts! It's always great to hear from someone who has "been there".

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks for your great post on this issue MS. It has been over 4 years since I read the whole Qu'ran and at the time I never discovered a place where it came right out and said it was ok to lie in order to gain respect for their religion. However, one might take "Surah 16:106" as permission to lie or testify falsely if in ones heart they know it is a lie and if it was done to protect oneself from others or unbelievers.

There are a couple of Islam doctrines that go into detail about this, but from the qu'ran itself I have not found a place where it simply states the same as what Paul said in 1Cor.9.19-23 and 2Cor.12.16. Those doctrines are "Kithman" under the Shia' doctrine and "Taqiya", both of which explain it is ok to lie for the sake of furthering Islam itself.

And Shane, are you serious? Attempting to use the words of Paul to prove he met Jesus is outrageous and circular reasoning. Mohammed’s words that he was needed to give the gospel after Jesus’ ministry is also circular reasoning and just as outrageous.

In my humble opinion, IF God needed ANY self professed or appointed prophet or apostle after Jesus’ ministry on this earth to provide further information needed to understand salvation, then Jesus failed miserably. I know that He didn’t!

Furthermore, just saying that the words of a self appointed prophet or apostle are the words of God (the Qu’ran and the whole bible being holy) or the inspired words of God are clearly blasphemy. It is no wonder God prophesied about this problem as found in Revelation 13.1-6.

Look folks, the Qu'ran and the Bible (as with any organized religious documents), are just paper with words on them. Why get upset with anyone who buys them and then burns their own property? Its their loss, not yours or mine!

[John317]

From the moderator:

This is a discussion about the Qu'ran, not the writings of the Apostle Paul. Let's keep it on the Qu'ran.

[John317]

It might be good to talk a little bit about how the Muslims believe the Koran came to be written:

They believe the Koran is word-for-word the way that the angel Gabriel dictated them and that they are the very words of Allah himself. They see it as the only perfect revelation from God. But Muhammad at first thought that it was an evil spirit who came to him in the cave. This caused him great distress of mind. But his wife and friends convinced him that it had to be an angel from God who spoke to him. His wife, Khadijah, tested the spirit and proved it to be good, and finally Muhammad accepted it as from God. His wife hoped that he would be a prophet to his people.

This information is according to Muslim sources.

[Tallmark]

No prophecy from Mohammed....ever! Don't forget that Jews and Christians are infidels worthy of death. And that Muslims can lie to and deceive them.

[cmiquel]

As you read the Koran, remember, its not a Historical account like the Bible. In the Koran, you can have Issac, Moses, Abraham, Matthew, Paul, Peter, etc. all rowing the same both at the same time on the same river.

Additionally, one suggested approach is categories. Allah and God of the Bible; Jesus and Mohammed, the Koran and he Bible. They are all substantially different.

Although, the core doctrine is different from SDA Theology, here is one site that makes a comprehensive comparison:

http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html

[Dr. Rich]

Sorry about that chief, but if you can't compair the Qu'ran to the Bible and what is written in both, then what good is debating it? Go fish? Just like the bible where most people who call themselves a 'Christian' and have NOT read it and don't even know what is in it, so goes most muslims with the Qu'ran. People forget that there are many different sects of Muslims just like Christians who are split into many denominations because of the different opinions found in the writings of the bible.

So tell me John, how would you know IF what is written in the Qu'ran is true or not IF you could not compair it with words found in the bible or any other religious document?

Yes, I agree with you that this is NOT about Paul, but he is the ONLY writer we have to compare with Mohammed as both are self perported to be chosen by God to be His servant. If you can find another like this please tell me.

[Dr. Rich]

And by the way John, all I did was answer someone elses question. So is there something wrong with answering a question?

[CaseyButler]

Just to encourage you, Gerry...

I've read the Qur'an through 5 times at least. It was about midway through my second reading that I realized the Prophet Muhammad had spread the Gospel to Arabia in an amazing way, and that, indeed, he was as true a disciple of Jesus as Paul or Peter.

And that realization still brings tears, thanks... :-)

I feel Muhammad is best described by Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan. He attended to the wounded man whom the Priest and Rabbi have repeatedly passed by.

Quote:

#13 really was a shocking statement to me, considering that they use force to either propagate Islam or force renegades to come back to Islam on pain of death if they refuse.

There are more "shocking" statements like that. Keep your faith in the love of Jesus for all humankind, and I think you will hear his voice throughout the Qur'an.

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." [1 Corinthians 1:21]

As the Qur'an says, "Thus have We sent this down, an Arabic Qur'an, and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear God, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him)." [Chapter 20:113]

Godspeed to you from this foolish sinner...

Casey

[Stan]

27 of our 28 are supported by the Koran...

there is a link on the top of the left column, it has one DVD on Muslims and Adventist, one one Buddist and three other groups.

Most interesting for the serious gospel workers

[Stan]

should have said right column, sorry, from Global Missions.

[John317]

I think the most important single difference between the Bible and the Koran is that the Bible teaches that Christ is Diety, the Creator of the universe, and that He was most definitely crucified and died on the cross for the sins of humanity in order to save us. It teaches "there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood." On the other hand, the Koran teaches that Christ's existence began on this earth, that he never died on the cross and that Allah forgives all sins without the shedding of any blood.

[CaseyButler]

And the 28th you might be speaking of was added in the 1950's, to keep the Seventh Day Adventist Church from being identified as a non-Christian "cult", same as the Latter Day Saints (the Mormons) were and still are considered a non-Christian cult by the mainstream... Though the other day I heard Mormons referred to more gently as the "Fourth Abrahamic Faith".

Phew, the General Conference saved us from that fate.

All that aside... Do you get the sense in this world gone crazy that something is unfolding? Something wonderful? :-)

But unfolding excrutiatingly slowly... (gripe, gripe, gripe).

Casey

[John317]

if you can't compair the Qu'ran to the Bible and what is written in both, then what good is debating it?

By all means compare the Qu'ran to the Bible. First we need to know what both of those sources say.

But if you can't do that without debating the issue of whether 2/3 of the New Testament is genuine Scripture, it would be best to debate that issue elsewhere. Otherwise it gets this discussion off into a different topic, which we've seen happen many times before.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

So tell me John, how would you know IF what is written in the Qu'ran is true or not IF you could not compair it with words found in the bible or any other religious document?

No one has said you shouldn't compare the Koran with the words found in the Bible. But comapre it to the Bible, not to your theories about Paul.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Yes, I agree with you that this is NOT about Paul, but he is the ONLY writer we have to compare with Mohammed as both are self perported to be chosen by God to be His servant. If you can find another like this please tell me.

This is not a discussion about whether Paul and 3/4 of the NT was chosen of God. That's a separate topic.

[John317]

I've read the Qur'an through 5 times at least. It was about midway through my second reading that I realized the Prophet Muhammad had spread the Gospel to Arabia in an amazing way, and that, indeed, he was as true a disciple of Jesus as Paul or Peter.

The Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the pure words of Allah. What is your understanding of how the Koran came to be written? Do you believe it was inspired by the same God who inspired the Bible? If so, do you believe all of the Qur'an was inspired?

[CaseyButler]

Muslims, like Christians, believe many different things. Even as there are many varying forms of Judaism, and not one Seventh-Day Adventist who believes exactly the same as another.

I would say all these eclectic beliefs are Intentional, and part of the Plan of Salvation, and that Plan is from God...

As far as what is and is not "inspired" in the Qur'an... Jesus taught us the following about God:

Quote:

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, (art) in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" - John 17:17-22

The little Group Jesus created here includes the Prophet Muhammad, and you and I.

Which parts of the Qur'an would you say are not pure words from God?

I see pure words from God all around me, the Qur'an included, all spoken through, and because of, the Holy Spirit.

But who cares what I see? Better we kill and die for a few more years before it finally sinks in, I guess... But I could be wrong... What's on your mind... would YOU burn a Qur'an? Would you have burnt one 9 years ago? What's changed? Yada yada..

Casey

[LifeHiscost]

We got to be companionate, as what SOP said there are from other flock who are save into the kingdom of God, I do believe that some Muslim will be save too.

Amen!!

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16 NKJV

The common denominator appears to be listening for and heeding the voice of the Great Shepherd.

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

And Shane, are you serious? Attempting to use the words of Paul to prove he met Jesus is outrageous and circular reasoning.

And this is especially true if the statement is made so plain as to be incontrovertible and we don't want to accept it unless it agrees with our preconceived ideas of the hidden meanings behind all the plain statements that need theological explanations that

will help the poor simple people that believe the simple gospel message is meant for them.

Shades of the inquisition!!

Regards!!