The Koran - have you read it?

[LifeHiscost]

Just to encourage you, Gerry...

I've read the Qur'an through 5 times at least. It was about midway through my second reading that I realized the Prophet Muhammad had spread the Gospel to Arabia in an amazing way, and that, indeed, he was as true a disciple of Jesus as Paul or Peter.

Casey

You've read it that many times and yet have missed the most basic premise that makes the rest of the Quran without any plea for proper understanding of the Word of God within the Holy Bible.

Give us any evidence that any Islamic believer sees Jesus to be the self existent Eternal God, One with the Father, without beginning or end.

"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6 NKJV

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"John 14:9 KJV

"All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."Matthew 11:27 NKJV

Blessings!!

[CaseyButler]

5 times is maybe overkill, but that's what I did. Every time another little gem would appear, like:

"And those whom they invoke besides God have no power of intercession; only he who bears witness to the Truth, and they know him." [Chapter 43:86]

I've read the Bible over and over too, I love these books. So... Just so you know, I've read the book of Revelation through maybe more than a million times. And the Gospels and Epistles hundreds of times...

You said it yourself... "Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." - Matthew 11:27 NKJV

Jesus led me to the Father. I know Him almost as Jesus did, and I suffer the consequences every time I open my mouth.

Blasphemer!

Maybe we could all just keep in mind, every time a Muslim or Christian or Jew dies in this war without end, that perhaps our Father is trying to teach us something about the extent of His Love for what He has created... or something.

Something we've maybe had a hard time seeing for a very, very long time.

Or... Maybe we should just all go to Wal-Mart and shop.

I think He's got it covered regardless of what we do. At least He has up to now.

Nice talking with you all again... I'll return to my forest now. I am a Monk among the animals and birds there, sensitive and easily hurt though they be. :-)

Casey

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

if you can't compair the Qu'ran to the Bible and what is written in both, then what good is debating it?

By all means compare the Qu'ran to the Bible. First we need to know what both of those sources say.

But if you can't do that without debating the issue of whether 2/3 of the New Testament is genuine Scripture, it would be best to debate that issue elsewhere. Otherwise it gets this discussion off into a different topic, which we've seen happen many times before.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

So tell me John, how would you know IF what is written in the Qu'ran is true or not IF you could not compair it with words found in the bible or any other religious document?

No one has said you shouldn't compare the Koran with the words found in the Bible. But comapre it to the Bible, not to your theories about Paul.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Yes, I agree with you that this is NOT about Paul, but he is the ONLY writer we have to compare with Mohammed as both are self perported to be chosen by God to be His servant. If you can find another like this please tell me.

This is not a discussion about whether Paul and 3/4 of the NT was chosen of God. That's a separate topic.

Amen

[Guest]

And the 28th you might be speaking of was added in the 1950's, to keep the Seventh Day Adventist Church from being identified as a non-Christian "cult", same as the Latter Day Saints (the Mormons) were and still are considered a non-Christian cult by the mainstream... Though the other day I heard Mormons referred to more gently as the "Fourth Abrahamic Faith".

Phew, the General Conference saved us from that fate.

All that aside... Do you get the sense in this world gone crazy that something is unfolding? Something wonderful? :-)

But unfolding excrutiatingly slowly... (gripe, gripe, gripe).

Casey

Which of the 28 are you referring to?

[CaseyButler]

I wonder which of the 28 I meant - All 28 that we must swear an oath to upon Baptism (Didn't Jesus mention something about not swearing oaths...) or we won't be allowed into the fold.

Assuming you are an Adventist, for your own good I won't tell you. But I'll give you a hint. "Noah loaded the clean animals into the ark ___ by ___."

It might be a good exercise for every Adventist to compare the various forms of Seventh Day Adventist "Fundemental Beliefs" as they have been modified over our history. "Present Truth", indeed, but which present.

I'll bet it will jump out at you like it did at me when I bothered to look.

Has anyone any idea of what the Spirit of God has in store for His best Bible scholars (Adventists) when they open themselves to His true nature as God of the Universe, Lord of all the Worlds, Creator of Everything?

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed (them) unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." [1 Corinthians 2:9-10]

This is why I'm a forest Monk, I believe. My patience does not even come close the Patience of God... I have no real concept of how to communicate good things except to blurt them out.

Of course, my time here is limited to a rather short period... so I think a certain impatience on my part is to be expected, and, hopefully, tolerated.

Casey

[Neil D]

has anyone found a passage in the koran that says something about the seventh day being a sabbath? I am told that it does....

[LifeHiscost]

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”"John 8:32 NKJV

"Jesus said to him, "I am...the Truth...."

John 14:6 NASB

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

John 6:37 KJV

Blessings to you, CaseyButler!

[John317]

If you have the Koran, look at the following:

Sura 2: 65; 4: 47, 154; 7: 163; 16: 124.

The Islamic day of worship is found in Sura 62: 9.

Chapter 2: The Cow, verse 65 says, "And indeed you know those among you who violated the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated."

The Koran teaches that the Sabbath is the holy day that Allah commanded the Jews to keep, but there is nothing in the Koran which instructs non-Jews to keep it. In fact, the Koran says that Muslims are to have their special prayer, Jumu'ah, on Friday.

"O you who believe, when the call is sounded for prayer on Friday, hasten to the remembrance of Allah and leave off traffic. That is better for you, if you know."

Islam doesn't have a Sabbath as such because the Koran permits them to work on Friday before or after the Jumu'ah prayer.

[John317]

Muslims, like Christians, believe many different things. Even as there are many varying forms of Judaism, and not one Seventh-Day Adventist who believes exactly the same as another.

I would say all these eclectic beliefs are Intentional, and part of the Plan of Salvation, and that Plan is from God...

Do you believe it was God who told Muhammad that Jesus did not die on the cross?

If not, who spoke the following words to Muhammad? According to Muslim beliefs, these words are the very words of Allah.

Sura 4: 157: "And for their saying: We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah, and they killed him not, nor did they cause his death on the cross, but he was made to appear to them as such. And certainly those who differ therein are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge about it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for certain."

The note written by a Muslim commentator says, "The statements made in the Qu'ran corroborate the above statements quoted from the Gospels. Jesus did not die on the cross, nor was he killed as were the two thieves, but to the Jews he appeared af if he were dead."

From The Holy Qur'an with English Translation and Commentary, Maulana Muhammad Ali.

[CaseyButler]

I'm sorry, John... I missed the part in that verse where it says Jesus did not die on the cross.

Can you post that part please?

Casey

[CaseyButler]

Actually, there is quite a bit of evidence that Muhammad, a great proponent of the Ten Commandments, kept the Sabbath. The Friday call to prayer takes place on what we would call the Day of Preparation, which makes perfect sense.

Friday was never intended to replace the Sabbath, as is indicated by the chapter that mourns believers who left prayers early to seek bargains in the markets.

How could the restorer of the Law to Arabia ignore the Sabbath?

Casey

[John317]

Sure, gladly:

Sura 4: 157: "And for their saying: We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah, and they killed him not, nor did they cause his death on the cross, but he was made to appear to them as such. And certainly those who differ therein are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge about it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for certain."

It says here that they did not kill Jesus nor did they crucify him. The next verse, v. 158, says that the reason Christ did not die is that Allah took Christ to Himself.

V. 159 says that Christ's death and resurrection are yet future.

The following is a translation by M.H. Shakir:

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

[4.158] Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

[4.159] And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

NOTE: If you beleive these verses teach that Christ died on the cross, please explain how you get such teaching out of those words. Where does the Koran teach that Christ really did die on the cross?

[John317]

Actually, there is quite a bit of evidence that Muhammad, a great proponent of the Ten Commandments, kept the Sabbath.

Please give us this evidence from Muslim sources. Is there any evidence in the Koran itself that Allah wants non-Jews to keep the Sabbath?

[CaseyButler]

I understand that it says the Jews did not kill Jesus.

But I don't see where it says Jesus did not die.

Did the Jews kill Jesus, John?

Casey

[John317]

I understand that it says the Jews did not kill Jesus.

But I don't see where it says Jesus did not die.

Did the Jews kill Jesus, John?

Let's not play games with words.

Here is the testimony of Scripture. It says clearly that the Jews "crucified and killed" Jesus. He was "crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

Acts 2:23

this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you [Jews] crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36

Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you [Jews] crucified."

Acts 3:17

"And now, brothers, I know that you [Jews] acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers."

Luke 24:20

and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him.

NOTE: Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who did Peter say killed and crucified Christ?

[John317]

I understand that it says the Jews did not kill Jesus.

But I don't see where it says Jesus did not die.

Is there any evidence in the Koran that Jesus died on the cross?

Do Muslims teach and believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross and was resurrected?

[John317]

Actually, there is quite a bit of evidence that Muhammad, a great proponent of the Ten Commandments, kept the Sabbath.

Where does the Koran say Muslims or all people should keep the Ten Commandments?

I know it says Allah intended for the Jews to keep the Sabbath, but where does it say non-Jews should keep it? If it did say this, perhaps Muslims would keep it. But how do you persuade Muslims that Allah wants them to keep the seventh day Sabbath if their own "holy book" doesn't say it?

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

Is there any evidence in the Koran itself that Allah wants non-Jews to keep the Sabbath?

The entire Qur'an is about the Law passed down on Sinai. Including all Ten Commandments.

Ishmael was a participant in the physical circumcision that bound him to the First Covenant of the Law, as attested to by Genesis and the Apostle Paul. Jews and Arabs are Semitic peoples descended from Abraham.

Presumably you also claim membership in Spiritual Israel as Paul defined it? Aren't you a Jew in God's Eyes?

Doesn't an Arabic Muslim, directly descended from Abraham, circumcized according to the First Covenant with Abraham, stand as a Jew in God's Eyes as well?

We are told by Peter that indeed God is no respecter of persons, did Peter err?

BTW, what does that word "Allah", that you keep using, actually mean?

Casey

[CaseyButler]

I'm not playing games with words. Read what the text actually says - in context with other passages about Mary and Jesus, John the Baptist, Moses, and all the others.

Did Jesus say the Jews killed Him?

1. Jesus told us that no man took his life, rather he offered it up himself. No one was to be blamed - an extremely important concept.

The Prophet Muhammad understood this, and built protections in Islam against persecuting the Jews as much as he could.

If other Christians had done so, the Jews as a people, of whom "salvation is" according to Jesus, would not have suffered as much as Jesus did - but again and again - over the last 2000 years.

2. Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. No Jew laid a hand on him except the Jews who followed him and placed him in the cave.

The Prophet Muhammad was as expert at wielding the metaphorical two-edged sword as Jesus was in the Gospels.

Take what you want from what you read, I will listen to Jesus. :-)

Casey

[John317]

BTW, what does that word "Allah", that you keep using, actually mean?

It's the Arabic word for "God." Its' a word that pre-dated Muhammad.

[John317]

Is there any evidence in the Koran itself that Allah wants non-Jews to keep the Sabbath?

Originally Posted By: CaseyButler

The entire Qur'an is about the Law passed down on Sinai. Including all Ten Commandments.

I've read the entire Qur'an at least 3 times and I wouldn't say the entire book is about the Law passed down on Sinai.

Where does the Koran quote the Ten Commandments? Does the Koran give evidence that Exodus 20: 8-11 is for non-Jews as well as Jews? If so, where?

Originally Posted By: CaseyButler

Ishmael was a participant in the physical circumcision that bound him to the First Covenant of the Law, as attested to by Genesis and the Apostle Paul.

Who was the son of Promise, according to the Qu'ran? Does the Qu'ran teach that Isaac was the son of Promise?

[John317]

Is there any evidence in the Koran itself that Allah wants non-Jews to keep the Sabbath?

Originally Posted By: CaseyButler

Presumably you also claim membership in Spiritual Israel as Paul defined it? Aren't you a Jew in God's Eyes?

Yes, through faith in Christ, as Paul says in Romans 4.

Romans 4:16

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all...

Romans 9:7-8

and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." [8] This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Originally Posted By: CaseyButler

Doesn't an Arabic Muslim, directly descended from Abraham, circumcized according to the First Covenant with Abraham, stand as a Jew in God's Eyes as well?

Where does the Bible teach that Muslims are Jews in God's eyes? We are Jews in the eyes of God through faith in Christ. That is the only way we truly become children of Abraham.

The Koran does not teach Muslims to have faith in Christ. They hear that Christ was a mere man and that His life began on this earth, not in heaven before coming to the earth. They hear that Jesus was not the creator and that He did not die on the cross for anyone's sins. The only way they would know these things is from Christians, not from Muslims or from the Koran. If you disagree with me, where do you find these things taught in the Koran?

[John317]

I'm not playing games with words. Read what the text actually says - in context with other passages about Mary and Jesus, John the Baptist, Moses, and all the others.

What do you see in Sura 4: 157 (or anywhere else in the Koran) that signifies Jesus died on the cross?

Show what you understand from those passages that explains the true meaning of Sura 4: 157.

Can you show your reasoning on the basis of those verses?

[John317]

2. Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. No Jew laid a hand on him except the Jews who followed him and placed him in the cave.

Is this why we have the following verses?

Matthew 26:67

Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him with the palms of their hands,

Was it the Romans who did this or the Jews? The Jews, right?

Or this:

Matthew 27:20

Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus.

Notice that it was the Roman governor who tried to release Jesus but the Bible says the Jews put pressure on Pilate to have him executed:

Quote:

Matthew 27:20-26

Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. [21] The governor again said to them, "Which of the two do you want me to release for you?" And they said, "Barabbas." [22] Pilate said to them, "Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" They all said, "Let him be crucified!" [23] And he said, "Why, what evil has he done?" But they shouted all the more, "Let him be crucified!"

[24] So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood; see to it yourselves." [25] And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!" [26] Then he released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.

Does the NT portray the Romans as plotting to kill Jesus during those years of His ministry?

What does it say?

Matthew 26:3-4

Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, [4] and plotted together in order to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him.

[CaseyButler]

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." [2 Timothy 4:8]

Nobody prays more for Jesus' return than Muslims I'd wager - if I were a wagering man.

I, of course, have no authority other than the Holy Spirit through which God teaches me.

I do understand that church members should not have to go through massive changes with every little bugger that claims that Spirit.

And I understand that any understanding of anything "new" (like the Qur'an?) will only come through the authority of the church. After all it is our church authorities who offer the assurance that they teach the "truth".

So I am wasting your time and I apologize for doing so. Nevertheless, I do still offer my encouragement to Gerry and anyone else seeking God and His Plan in this world-turned-upside-down that we live in.

One day, John, the authority that the church has formed itself into will tire of the sacrifices made in that Third Temple Jesus constructed - Ezekiel's Temple. They will tire because of the blood and the hatred and the jealousy and the greed driving this war without end and they will turn to the Bible once more to re-examine prophecy and the plainly spoken words of Jesus in light of 21st Century Present Truth our pioneers could not possibly be expected to have factored into their prophetic interpretations.

Maybe that day you will hear from our church authorities that it's okay to read "God" for "Allah".

Maybe you'll only hear it from Jesus, when he returns.

Meanwhile I have a forest to attend to.

My best to you...

Casey