The Koran - have you read it?

[John317]

....I will listen to Jesus. :-)

Here's Jesus:

Who did Jesus say would destroy "this temple," His body?

John 2:18-21

So the Jews said to him, "What sign do you show us for doing these things?" [19] Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." [20] The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" [21] But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

Or this:

Mark 10:33-34

[Jesus said], "See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the Gentiles. [34] And they will mock him and spit on him, and flog him and kill him. And after three days he will rise."

Did Jesus deny here that humans would kill Him? Did Jesus deny that the Jews were responsible for His death?

If Jesus did, He would have been a liar, for the facts are very clear. Judas delivered Jesus over the chief priests and the scribes, and they condemned him to death and then delivered him over the Romans. Pilate would have released Jesus because he found him innocent, but the Jews would not allow Jesus to be freed. Instead they demanded that Jesus be executed. This is according to the Gospels.

Of the man who betrayed Him, Jesus said:

Mark 14:21

For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

Matthew 27:20-26

Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. [21] The governor again said to them, "Which of the two do you want me to release for you?" And they said, "Barabbas." [22] Pilate said to them, "Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" They all said, "Let him be crucified!" [23] And he said, "Why, what evil has he done?" But they shouted all the more, "Let him be crucified!"

[24] So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood; see to it yourselves." [25] And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!" [26] Then he released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.

[Rondo]

This may not respond directly to the last post of this thread, but a question I have had about Obama being born Muslim, since his Father was Muslim, what is the punishment within Islam of one that apostazies to another religion? Is this the reason it taking so long for he and Michelle to be seen in a Christian church or on the grounds of Camp David (who was a Jewish King)???

Quote:

Apostasy in Islam is commonly defined as the rejection in word or deed of their former religion (apostasy) by a person who was previously a follower of Islam. The traditional schools of Islamic jurisprudence are unanimous in holding that apostasy by a male Muslim is punishable by death. They differ on whether to execute the apostate immediately or grant the apostate a temporary reprieve in order to allow him to repent and avoid the penalty. The schools also differ on whether a female apostate is to be killed, or only imprisoned until she re-embraces the faith.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

[John317]

...2. Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. No Jew laid a hand on him except the Jews who followed him and placed him in the cave.

Mark 14:46

And they [the Jews] laid hands on him and seized him.

The inspired record is that the Jews condemned Jesus and delivered Him over to the Romans to be killed. The NT is clear that the Romans wouldn't have executed Jesus except for the desire of the Jews to have Him dead.

It's important to keep straight what the Bible teaches. We don't want to avoid the truth just because of political correctness or because we want to protect the Jews. I don't blame the Jews for Jesus' death. There's a real sense in which all humanity is to blame. But let's be straight with what the Bible actually teaches about how Christ died. Both Peter and the rest of the Gospel writers say that Jesus died because of a plot by the Jewish leaders.

If you have Bible evidence that I'm wrong, please show it.

[John317]

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." [2 Timothy 4:8]

Nobody prays more for Jesus' return than Muslims I'd wager - if I were a wagering man.

I, of course, have no authority other than the Holy Spirit through which God teaches me.

I'd be interested in knowing your understanding of what Muslims think of Jesus. Who do they believe He is and why do they pray for His return?

[CaseyButler]

Are you serious... The Jews killed Jesus? As a people? I mean, the whole bunch of 'em?

Not the Romans? You won't even limit the antagonism towards Jesus to Jews whose jobs were threatened by Jesus?

Like maybe saying, "The Jewish Authorities" rather than "The Jews"?

Was it Gentiles that followed him in their multitudes?

You say Jesus was a liar if he said "the Jews" didn't kill him, even though he did say that in John 10:17-18?

And you moderate this section?

Is it a paying job?

Stan... I could do better! :-)

Casey

[John317]

Are you serious... The Jews killed Jesus? As a people? I mean, the whole bunch of 'em?

No, not the "whole bunch of 'em." But clearly the leadership was responsible, and they persuaded the common people-- the "crowd"-- to call for His execution.

Matthew 27:20 Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus.

Can you show texts which say the Jews did not kill Jesus? Where does it say the Romans killed Him?

Matt. 27: 21, 22, 24 says that Pilate would have released Jesus except for the Jewish leaders and the crowd demanding Jesus's execution. The Jewish people said, "His blood be on us and on our children" (v. 25).

Isn't this all true?

[John317]

....You say Jesus was a liar if he said "the Jews" didn't kill him, even though he did say that in John 10:17-18?

Here's John 10: 17-18:

"For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. [18] No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."

Jesus isn't saying the Jews didn't kill Him. He is saying that if He wanted to-- and if the Father wanted it-- Jesus could avoid dying. But it was part of God's plan for Jesus to die for the sins of the world. However, that does not change the fact that certain men killed him and are responsible for His death. For instance, Judas is responsible for his actions in determining to betray Christ. The same goes for the Jewish leaders and the crowd who demanded His crucifixion.

Rev. 1: 7 says,

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

This text clearly says that those who killed Jesus will see Him come in the clouds. In order for this to happen, there must be humans who killed Him.

[CaseyButler]

See, what I'm trying to get across here is that there is a way now different from the spiritual destruction and division some of you folks engage in here.

Now it's not my fault that this way exists, so you don't need to kill the messenger, so to speak.

You know how it says:

"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, (and) there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." [isaiah 28:13]

Well, that's now past, and, believe it or not, there is a line upon line, precept upon precept path out of that snare.

It is strong, it is unbreakable, and it is time for it.

Everybody knows the ship is sinking, but nobody knows where to swim for safety.

Is it really necessary to continue witholding that knowledge.

I say no, it's time to shout it from the rooftops, and God is with me.

I don't care what Nightengales say. :-)

(Of course, God is with you too, but I'm "firing all my guns at once", as it were, for effect).

Casey

[John317]

See, what I'm trying to get across here is that there is a way now different from the spiritual destruction and division some of you folks engage in here.

Do you think I've engaged in this? If so, please show where.

[John317]

You know how it says:

"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, (and) there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." [isaiah 28:13]

Well, that's now past, and, believe it or not, there is a line upon line, precept upon precept path out of that snare.

It is strong, it is unbreakable, and it is time for it.

Everybody knows the ship is sinking, but nobody knows where to swim for safety.

Is it really necessary to continue witholding that knowledge.

I say no, it's time to shout it from the rooftops, and God is with me.

I don't care what Nightengales say. :-)

(Of course, God is with you too, but I'm "firing all my guns at once", as it were, for effect).

Could you explain clearly what you mean here? What does this have to do with the present discussion on reading the Koran?

[John317]

You say Jesus was a liar if he said "the Jews" didn't kill him, even though he did say that in John 10:17-18?

And you moderate this section?

Is it a paying job?

Stan... I could do better! :-)

Casey, where did I go wrong? Do you mean by saying Jesus didn't deny that the Jews killed him?

You may not agree with me, and that's OK, but moderators aren't required to be right in their opinions all the time. That's not part of the job. And no, it is NOT a paying job, I'm afraid. All voluntary, and I love it. Really. :-)

But getting back to topic of discussion, what translation of the Qur'an do you use most often?

[CaseyButler]

I'd rather not... My "duty" for God here is done for now, John, I think Jesus would agree. I've overstayed my welcome and my own departure notifications.

Sorry,

Peace...

Casey

[John317]

My "duty" for God here is done for now, John, I think Jesus would agree. I've overstayed my welcome and my own departure notifications.

I'm sincerely sorry to see you go, Casey. I had hoped you'd tell more about what you understand from your study of the Koran.

Could you explain what you mean your own "departure notifications"? What are they?

[Gerr]

has anyone found a passage in the koran that says something about the seventh day being a sabbath? I am told that it does....

Here is what the Koran says in ch 4:154: "We (God) said to them (Israelites), 'Transgress not the Sabbath'; and We took from them a solemn compact. So, for their breaking the compact, and disbelieving in the signs of God, and slaying the Prophets without right......

It is interesting to me that "We" is used instead of "I" in referring to God when speaking. I wonder if this is a royal "we" or a tacit admission of the Trinity since 4:169 it talks about "a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, "Three.'Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him - that He should have a son!" , which I interpret it to mean from Jesus

[Gerr]

The Koran forbids eating: carrion, blood, the flesh of swine, beast that has been strangled or beaten down, or fallen to death, or gored or devoured by beast of prey.

Muslim believers are not to take unbelievers as friends instead of believers. This includes Jews & Christians. Sounds like the - "do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers" injunction in the Bible.

Hand of a thief - male or female - is to be cut off.

[Gail]

Muslim believers are not to take unbelievers as friends instead of believers. This includes Jews & Christians. Sounds like the - "do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers" injunction in the Bible.

But they do- my son and I can both attest to that through experience.

[John317]

It is interesting to me that "We" is used instead of "I" in referring to God when speaking. I wonder if this is a royal "we" or a tacit admission of the Trinity since 4:169 it talks about "a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, "Three.'Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him - that He should have a son!" , which I interpret it to mean from Jesus

The Qur'an opposes any concept like the Trinity. For instance, Sura 5: 73 says, "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying, a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve... [75] The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him."

The translation "a Spirit" in Sura 4: 171 is often translated as "mercy from Him." One translator (Rodwell) says it means "a Being possessing a Spirit."

The Islamic commentary in one of my translations says, "Rauh and ruh both mean mercy of Allah, this being the proper significance of the word in the passage under discussion. Ruh also signifies inspiration or Divine revelation... The passage would thus mean that the advent of Jesus was in accordance with a prophecy and an inspiration from the Divine Being." The Holy Qur'an by Maulana Muhammad Ali.

Sura 2: 253 says, "We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit."

The footnote of the translation (as well as in others) says that "the holy Spirit" is a reference to "the angel Gabriel." Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall.

Other translations of the above verse has "divine grace" in place of "the holy Spirit." It's safe to say that Muslims don't understand these words to refer to a member of the Godhead.