Good Morning + Happy 9-11 to all of U

[Dr. Shane]

When you are buying into a conspiracy, you have to really check your sources' sources and often times their sources. Those that tout conspiracy theories are not known for their honesty. The buildings were not designed for a 707 to crash into them with a full load of fuel and burn.

Those not familiar with the construction and design process may not understand the processes that take place during design. Calculations are run on everything. The number of downspouts installed on a house are determined by calculations. The calculations on the WTC indicated that it could survive the impact of a 707. Those calculations were correct, it did survive the impact. Calculations also were shown that it could survive a fire caused by a bomb or even aviation fuel. However what was not calculated is the combination of both. The impact of a large jet crash would knock the fireproofing off the steel. That is kind of like stripping a knight of his armor and sending him out to battle. Without the firepoofing, the buildings would not stand up to the fire - and they didn't.

The design of the building would have stood up to a small plane crashing into it. A small plane would not have knocked off as much fireproofing and would not have had as much fuel and thus the fire would have been much smaller, perhaps even put out with the building's fire sprinkler system. So the design was good for a small plane - not a large jet.

WTC 7 collapsed primarily because the firefighters pulled off it and let it burn. The heat caused one column to fail which in turn had a domino effect on the rest of the building. The NYFD expected it to fall because they pulled away. No mystery.

[Paula]

Quote:

If it was a conspiracy by the government or by some government agency, it seems to me we're talking about thousands of people who would have to be in on it.

Also, what about all the people on those planes who were killed and made the phone calls beforehand? Didn't they retrieve any bodies of the passengers who died in the crash at the Pentagon?

I don't think thousands would have to be in on it. Only a few people would have to know about it. Everyone else would just be along for the ride. This is easy to see by how, on the day of the events several broadcasters described the fall as a "controlled demolition", they interviewed many people who said that they heard explosions, and even some reporters described hearing explosions on the ground floor prior to the towers falling. As time went on information became more controlled, however...

But peoplw don't realy doubt what they hear on tv, and what their government tells them, especially in times of panic.

Quote:

If we think the government has reason to lie, we need to remember that there are many other people who have reason to lie, people who have their own ulterior motives for wanting to keep the conspiracy theories flying.

Agreed. But why won't the government look into the explosions heard on the ground floor levels, the thermite found on the grounds, the lava pools, etc..... why are the black boxes not revealed, why do they not show the video of the pentagon being hit by an airplane, etc... etc... It's hard not to question the governments motives when they are hiding so much.

[Gordon1]

Hmm. What company provided the fuel? I think that's important. And who fueled the plane? Was the person salaried or paid by the hour? How long did the person work at that job? What did he/she do before landing that job? Does he have children? What are their names? Any pets at home? Is he/she a member of PETA? Are all PETA members provided legal assistance? Who is their attorney? From what University did he/she get a legal degree? Is the University accredited? Who did the accreditation? How many other Universities are accredited to offer an LLD? Are they also offering doctorates in other fields? How many fields, and does this include foreign languages? Is Arabic one of the languages offered? What about Spanish? Do students receive Federal scholarships? Do students receiving Federal scholarships do internships at the Capitol in Washington, DC? Have any of the students met the POTUS and other members of Congress?

There. I've just shown how sound deductive reasoning demonstrates that the US President and Congress had a definite link to the towers being destroyed.

Well yes Pam, but you've chosen a rather circuitous route.

You could just report that the youngest brother of George, Marvin P. Bush, was on the board of Securacom, providing security for the WTC (and United Airlines and Dulles Airport) until at least 2000 if not later.

[bonnie]

Hmm. What company provided the fuel? I think that's important. And who fueled the plane? Was the person salaried or paid by the hour? How long did the person work at that job? What did he/she do before landing that job? Does he have children? What are their names? Any pets at home? Is he/she a member of PETA? Are all PETA members provided legal assistance? Who is their attorney? From what University did he/she get a legal degree? Is the University accredited? Who did the accreditation? How many other Universities are accredited to offer an LLD? Are they also offering doctorates in other fields? How many fields, and does this include foreign languages? Is Arabic one of the languages offered? What about Spanish? Do students receive Federal scholarships? Do students receiving Federal scholarships do internships at the Capitol in Washington, DC? Have any of the students met the POTUS and other members of Congress?

There. I've just shown how sound deductive reasoning demonstrates that the US President and Congress had a definite link to the towers being destroyed.

Maybe this is the same group involved with the concentration camps FEMA is getting ready in "secret" in MN.

It is so secret that those that have spent a great deal of time at Camp Ripley don't see what is going on.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't think thousands would have to be in on it. Only a few people would have to know about it.

There would have been thousands - not a few. We have detailed reports done by NYFD and NYPD that were put together by the cooperative work of hundreds alone. Then we have the flight recorder boxes recovered from the planes. We also have the investigative reports done by the DCFD and DCPD. We have FBI investigations that were done. We have CIA investigations. The FAA investigations. We have the port authority investigations. Then we have all the various forms of media that would have had to gone along and not done investigative work. We are talking about thousands of people not only that would have had to been involved in causing the disaster but then involved in covering it up.

[Paula]

When you are buying into a conspiracy, you have to really check your sources' sources and often times their sources. Those that tout conspiracy theories are not known for their honesty. The buildings were not designed for a 707 to crash into them with a full load of fuel and burn.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

4) There's little to NO EVIDENCE that a plane crushed at Shankesville.

I wonder whatever happened to my cousin, then?

[Paula]

Originally Posted By: Paula

I don't think thousands would have to be in on it. Only a few people would have to know about it.

There would have been thousands - not a few. We have detailed reports done by NYFD and NYPD that were put together by the cooperative work of hundreds alone. Then we have the flight recorder boxes recovered from the planes. We also have the investigative reports done by the DCFD and DCPD. We have FBI investigations that were done. We have CIA investigations. The FAA investigations. We have the port authority investigations. Then we have all the various forms of media that would have had to gone along and not done investigative work. We are talking about thousands of people not only that would have had to been involved in causing the disaster but then involved in covering it up.

All you would need, Shane would be for the head of each one of these organiztions to set the tone that the investigation was going to take, and to have final authority over what was printed. Thats a hand full of people. You can have people on the ground come to one conclusion in their investigations. But the minute the higher ups type it up, they get to rewrite history. Thats all.

[Gordon1]

Paula - choose Edit, then Delete Post.

[Paula]

thanks gordon!!!!!

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

A general tag on.....

There has been much printed, storied, TV, about the reasons for the Tower structers problems, not designed for such an event and how it was possible for a plane to bring them down.

Well, actually the Twin Towers WERE built to withstand a plane impact...

Here is an aticle from the pulitzer prize winning Seattle Times:

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930227&slug=1687698

Saturday, February 27, 1993 - Page updated at 12:00 AM

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Twin Towers Engineered To Withstand Jet Collision

By Eric Nalder

Engineers had to consider every peril they could imagine when they designed the World Trade Center three decades ago because, at the time, the twin towers were of unprecedented size for structures made of steel and glass.

"We looked at every possible thing we could think of that could happen to the buildings, even to the extent of an airplane hitting the side," said John Skilling, head structural engineer. "However, back in those days people didn't think about terrorists very much."

Skilling, based in Seattle, is among the world's top structural engineers. He is responsible for much of Seattle's downtown skyline and for several of the world's tallest structures, including the Trade Center.

Concerned because of a case where an airplane hit the Empire State Building, Skilling's people did an analysis that showed the towers would withstand the impact of a Boeing 707.

"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

This is fine and well, but to actually know if your tests are correct, you'd have to actually do it on something real not just say in theory we know this is what will happen. So now that it happen you can now see that there theory was wrong.

[Paula]

I need to make a correction.

A 757 crashed into the pentagon. It was two 767's that crashed into the towers. Here are the specks between a 767 and a 707... still very similar in size as well as in fuel load:

The maximum takeoff weight for a Boeing 707-320B is 336,000 pounds.

The maximum takeoff weight for a Boeing 767-200ER is 395,000 pounds.

The wingspan of a Boeing 707 is 146 feet.

The wingspan of a Boeing 767 is 156 feet.

The length of a Boeing 707 is 153 feet.

The length of a Boeing 767 is 159 feet.

The Boeing 707 could carry 23,000 gallons of fuel.

The Boeing 767 could carry 23,980 gallons of fuel.

The cruise speed of a Boeing 707 is 607 mph = 890 ft/s,

The cruise speed of a Boeing 767 is 530 mph = 777 ft/s.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Shane the person responsible for the design of the building stated that the towers were designed to withstand the impact of a 707 WITHOUT structural damage. This was in the Seattle Times.

Provide me the person's name, the exact quote of what he said and the date when he said it. I expect that was all in the Seattle Times. Of course, I am sure you will be providing the date of the issue, the article's author and the section of the paper it was in.

Quote:

I think I'll stick with his statement on this one.

I would like to see that statement.

Originally Posted By: Shane

So the design was good for a small plane - not a large jet.

this is your opinion.

[Paula]

Shane.. I gave the link to the article and the copy of the article a few posts back. Here it is again, though:

Here is an aticle from the pulitzer prize winning Seattle Times:

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930227&slug=1687698

Saturday, February 27, 1993 - Page updated at 12:00 AM

E-mail article Print view

Twin Towers Engineered To Withstand Jet Collision

By Eric Nalder

Engineers had to consider every peril they could imagine when they designed the World Trade Center three decades ago because, at the time, the twin towers were of unprecedented size for structures made of steel and glass.

"We looked at every possible thing we could think of that could happen to the buildings, even to the extent of an airplane hitting the side," said John Skilling, head structural engineer. "However, back in those days people didn't think about terrorists very much."

Skilling, based in Seattle, is among the world's top structural engineers. He is responsible for much of Seattle's downtown skyline and for several of the world's tallest structures, including the Trade Center.

Concerned because of a case where an airplane hit the Empire State Building, Skilling's people did an analysis that showed the towers would withstand the impact of a Boeing 707.

"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

[Dr. Shane]

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930227&slug=1687698

Saturday, February 27, 1993 - Page updated at 12:00 AM

E-mail article Print view

Twin Towers Engineered To Withstand Jet Collision

By Eric Nalder

"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

Note: Skilling does not address the issue of the fireproofing falling off the steel due to the impact. They never calculated for that. The original design was only good for a small plane - not a large one.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: fccool

4) There's little to NO EVIDENCE that a plane crushed at Shankesville.

I wonder whatever happened to my cousin, then?

They found the cockpit voice recorder.

[Dr. Shane]

All you would need, Shane would be for the head of each one of these organiztions to set the tone that the investigation was going to take, and to have final authority over what was printed.

Not true. First there would have had to be a group of people that set it all up. The people that created the disaster. That alone would have been more than a handful. Someone would have had to set explosives throughout the buildings in NY, the Pentagon and field in Pennsylvania. That would have involved a lot of people. And something happened to the planes. Something happened to the people on the planes.

Then there is the cover-up. There wasn't just a few organizations that investigated this. There was local, state and federal organizations. Then there was media groups from all over the world. There are thousands involved there. Then we had the 9/11 commission investigating it. So that means Congress itself had to be part of the cover up.

Then, to top it all off, we have Osama bin Laden taking credit for it! There is no mystery - no conspiracy.

[Dr. Shane]

This is fine and well, but to actually know if your tests are correct, you'd have to actually do it on something real not just say in theory we know this is what will happen. So now that it happen you can now see that there theory was wrong.

The calculations were all fine. However they didn't take into account the impact would knock off the fireproofing. That is one of those "oops".

[Gordon1]

....Also, I would like to verify his theory about what took place at Oklahoma City.

If the US government and the American president were responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing and 9/11, Americans would have reason to overthrow the current government and execute the people responsible. The government doing such a thing would be the greatest act of betrayal to the nation.

I don't believe it happened. If I believed it did, I wouldn't be sitting here talking about it.

What do you know about Bill Hughes? I know he's a former SDA pastor. I believe I saw a video of him last year saying that Roy Allen Anderson and LeRoy Froom were Catholic priests. Do you know anything about this?

Hi John,

On Oklahoma City, you could track down ret. Brig. General (USAF) Benton Partin's report. Bombs were his thing. Fertilizer truck bombs are a bit of an urban myth. Good for fear-mongering. They make every cash crop farmer a potential terrorist - but just having sacks of 22-0-0 in the barn does not imply danger.

Yes if the government even allowed such events to occur, this would be treason and would Constitutionally justify a revolution. But Jesus saw the same corruption and political fraud in His day and yet He led no armed revolt. Since I believe you are a Christian John, I don't think you'd grab your gun either, for this is the way of the world, and we have a much higher calling - to cooperate with God in the conversion of evil minds. Not by force but by influence of the Spirit of Christ living within us and shining without. So we should not hesitate to protest injustice, especially ecclesiastical error and heresy, but our words are to warn and witness.

I believe all these things happened and maybe worse. The world is full of celebrated leaders who are in fact war criminals. But time is short and whether or not they convert to Catholicism (à la Tony Blair) in return for their fame & glory, their records stand.

I've spoken with Bill Hughes and he graciously hosted some of my non-SDA relatives who dropped in to see him. I believe he pastors an independant SDA Church in N. Florida. I think he'd be happy to talk with you by phone about book details. Let me know if you want his number.

I can't verify the Anderson/Froom Catholic Priest story, but yes I believe this was presented by Hughes. It may sound sensational, but would harmonize with the B.G. Wilkinson, James Arrabito, Alberto Rivera, M.L Andreasen, & H.H. Meyers testimony. Meyers wrote With Cloak and Dagger (Hartland Publications) detailing the meetings of the evangelicals (cult crusher Walter Martin and editor of Eternity magazine Donald Barnhouse) with the SDA hierarchy in the late 1950s. When M.L. Andreasen protested apostasy, he was put out of service and possibly pension as well. His concerns were later made public in Letters to the Churches. I believe Roy Allan Anderson, Froom and others were part of this group which altered EGW works to satisfy the watching world.

Leroy Froom brought error into the Church by going to outside sources in seeking to understand the Spirit for his book research. He admitted as much.

And so it goes.

With Cloak and Dagger by H.H. Meyers

http://books.google.ca/books?id=xNRW-spF...p;q&f=false

[Gordon1]

Originally Posted By: fccool

4) There's little to NO EVIDENCE that a plane crushed at Shankesville.

I wonder whatever happened to my cousin, then?

Yes Pam, I'm sorry.

This is one of the disturbing questions when we realize there was no solid evidence of an airliner crash in Shanksville.

And I believe the same cloud looms over the passenger list for the Pentagon too.

With regrets.

[Gordon1]

John,

I recently heard another theory which deserves consideration. That a small nuclear device brought down each of the Twin Towers. I've not looked at the reasoning, but this possibility always existed. Small nukes are not unknown. The Hariri assasination in Lebanon and perhaps the Bali explosion as well. A larger one for the Boxing Day Tsunami.

As for the many involved, perhaps. But it could be as few as dozens to plan it as Paula maintains. After that everyone just follows orders. Many don't realize till later that they were part of a questionable exercise. (Example: Security guards are directed to let repairman have 24 hour access. Where is their crime here? Why suspect that tradesmen could be placing explosive charges?) But later can they risk their jobs, families, entire careers?

Others would have to be implicitly involved such as those planting explosives. But mercenaries such as Blackwater will do almost anything for a price. And they bill to keep silent too. And security contractors could easily be non-Americans - no patriot angst. (They also stand to gain BIG through wartime contracts in the ensuing Iraq invasion)

It only takes one or two Generals to stand down an aerial response. Even if they're hesitant to follow the Vice President's orders. But they obey anyway and ask questions later. Maybe retire early with a nagging conscience. And everyone in the General's chain of command was only following orders - no crime on their part not to scramble jets.)

As for investigation. When the detectives are told to ignore evidence, their hands are tied, but most follow orders. The proof is that WTC Building 7 was not even mentioned in the Official 9/11 Commission Report. If they can overlook a 47-story skyscraper they could easily choose to overlook smaller details - in fact any detail.

"Gentlemen, we are here for a thorough investigation, but first we will ship all building debris to China and India for recycling. Then we'll cart smaller stuff to the landfill. Finally, ignore the molten steel and dust, but see if there are any Muslim passports wink wink. Muslim paper has special fireproofing unknown to American structural engineers. And don't look down the street. Building 7 is not in the budget. Is that clear?"

[jasd]

QR frame:

Quote:

Do you actually believe the U.S. government did this and that the President was responsible for 9/11?

Maybe not the US Govt. Maybe another?

Dubya?—responsible for 911?—don’t think so, he appeared to have the look of shock, “Sheesh! those ‘&*%@#’ actually did IT!” – meaning other than those 19.

Quote:

...how the public is manipulated by the mass media.

The “mass media”, together with the witless, gave us Obama. I’d say that’s pretty good evidence of manipulation... [/my bad]

Quote:

Who blew themselves up on 9/11!? WOW!!!

“themselves”? Maybe not. Maybe they were finessed aboard – after which the remotes took over the flight (pilotless flight). All indications point to the fact that those Boeings were either autonomously controlled by their flight software – or by remote (both the 757 and the 767 are remote outfitted). Anyway,

6-9 of the supposed hijackers were purportedly alive post-911.

Quote:

Here is a quote by former Secretary of State (and still extremely influential "advisor" to presidents) Henry Kissinger:

Re Kissinger:

“An anti-Communist who infiltrated Polish Communist Intelligence and rose to the equivalent rank of general has now named Henry Kissinger as a Soviet agent, recruited into a special group known as ODRA while he was a sergeant in the U.S. Armed Forces in Germany during World War II.”

“ODRA's principal purpose was the infiltration and penetration of military intelligence services in the West. [...] "Under the code name of "Bor" and described as an agent of ODRA was U.S. Sergeant (and later Captain) Kissinger,” --Col. Goleniewski

Hmm, interesting fellow – let’s not forget that he once headed the 911 Commission.

Quote:

I find it interesting that you ask me to prove that I ever worked as a journalist,

It may be that John317 simply found it incredible that – given the relative present state of journalism – one suspects admittance to such...

Quote:

...the sinking of the Lusitania

...which occurred ‘bout two years before being resurrected to gin up our entrance in the Great War.

Quote:

Otherwise they are loving and making a lie.

Nevertheless, videos of the Muslim street worldwide – celebrating our tragic loss – was no lie.

Quote:

I've heard all the theories about the government causing 9/11, but what I want to know is what is the evidence that any of those theories are true.

I’d say that the masses of molten steel (that’s liquefied steel) found in the rubble – constitute evidence that not all we’ve been led to believe passes the smell test. Thermite (explosive) would account for the molten steel; and, thermite particles were purportedly found in the dust and debris. But that goes by the way should the aircraft have been fueled with thermite, eh? [/kidding] One might suppose, yes?—being that jet fuel burns at estimates of between approximately 450 degrees and 800 degrees – and steel melts at what?—(steel will lose half its strength at 1100 degrees)... No way, José!—especially,

as we have live witnesses (such as Stanley Praimnath) who survived being as little as 20 feet from the burning airplane on their impact floors.

So, the fires melted steel support columns – but not the witnesses... no way, José!

Quote:

What happened to the plane that crashed into the ground?

Didn’t even register on the Richter scale; whereas, the Lockerbie crash registered 1.6.

Quote:

We did find a lot of debris from those planes - including the black boxes.

That may be so, but the NTSB informs that the black boxes retrieved from the WTC were either blank or erased – sorta like portions of the Nixon tapes... Hmmm, that’s just too, too cute.

Quote:

There need to be more SDA whistleblowers who desire to glorify God by speaking truth where they see it.

The .Org can begin by dissolving its ‘Entity (or creature) of the State’ status – and eschew dealing in usury with Banking Corps and/or other entities. Actions ought to speak louder than words...

Quote:

There were quite a few people who saw the plane fly close to the ground near the freeway and then hit the pentagon.

The power of suggestion also caused all parts of the plane to disappear – most significantly, its wings.

Quote:

Conspiracies are born out of fear, lack of undrestanding, delusional thinking, etc.

– and molten (liquid) metal... supposedly caused by burning jet fuel (kerosene). Okaaayyy. I have a kerosene stove. It struggles to boil eggs. Can its fuel melt large steel columns and fuse together cement and steel?—don’t think so. Even were it first atomized and pure oxygen pumped in for more than the 15-20 seconds of maximum heat reported (experienced) by survivors of the one Tower.

Then again, some conspiracies are born of High Strangeness, to wit:

“As the battered World Trade Towers collapsed, the very first suspects arrested, caught cheering as the towers fell, were Israelis, later identified as Mossad agents.”

Quote:

A 757 crashed into the pentagon. It was two 767's that crashed into the towers.

Both the 757 and the 767 were designed to fly autonomously (without pilots) or by remote control. The software on those airliners only permitted turns generating 1-2 Gs. The second plane that flew into the Towers made a turn, which would have generated more than 5 Gs – possible only by a remote override by handler.

Quote:

There is no mystery

That may be so; however, the molten (liquefied) steel, still cooling weeks after 911, must certainly qualify as an enigma – that being – the source of the extremely intense heat that melted steel columns.

[John317]

If the US government and the American president were responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing and 9/11, Americans would have reason to overthrow the current government and execute the people responsible. The government doing such a thing would be the greatest act of betrayal to the nation.

I don't believe it happened. If I believed it did, I wouldn't be sitting here talking about it.

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

Hi John,

...Yes if the government even allowed such events to occur, this would be treason and would Constitutionally justify a revolution. But Jesus saw the same corruption and political fraud in His day and yet He led no armed revolt. Since I believe you are a Christian John, I don't think you'd grab your gun either, for this is the way of the world, and we have a much higher calling - to cooperate with God in the conversion of evil minds. Not by force but by influence of the Spirit of Christ living within us and shining without. So we should not hesitate to protest injustice, especially ecclesiastical error and heresy, but our words are to warn and witness.

We're agreed on this. While I myself wouldn't take up weapons or encourage violent revolution, I know there are millions of other Americans who would if it was proved that the American government caused 9/11 or the Oklahoma City bombing. But during the violence in these "last days," I don't think SDAs have any business becoming embroiled in the political, social or military turmoil by taking sides one against another. I see that as Satan's way of getting people sidetracked from our main work and causing division between people who should be drawing closer together.

[Paula]

Quote:

We're agreed on this. While I myself wouldn't take up weapons or encourage violent revolution, I know there are millions of other Americans who would if it was proved that the American government caused 9/11 or the Oklahoma City bombing. But during the violence in these "last days," I don't think SDAs have any business becoming embroiled in the political, social or military turmoil by taking sides one against another. I see that as Satan's way of getting people sidetracked from our main work and causing division between people who should be drawing closer together.

John,

While I agree with you 100% that as Christians we are NEVER called to take up arms and encourage a violent revolution, we are called to be wise about what is going on around us. As Christians we are called to love the unlovable and above all to love truth. Now I am not saying I know all the truth. You don't know me, but those who do know that I was (and still am) a political science junkie, who truly believed/believes and loves all that America stands for. I always wanted to go into politics, and it would be harder to find someone who defended America, it's government or its actions more devoutly than I did. When a friend suggested that 911 was part of a conspiracy I was horrified. I thought he had lost his mind. But I'm a bit of a research geek, so I decided to look into all the evidence in order to prove him wrong. Boy was I surprised!!! Anyways.. the point is... we are to be peaceful, loving and a light to the world. We are not to encourage violence. But we are to seek out truth!!!

Regards!!

Paula

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Paula

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930227&slug=1687698

Saturday, February 27, 1993 - Page updated at 12:00 AM

E-mail article Print view

Twin Towers Engineered To Withstand Jet Collision

By Eric Nalder

"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

Note: Skilling does not address the issue of the fireproofing falling off the steel due to the impact. They never calculated for that. The original design was only good for a small plane - not a large one.

It would be honorable at this point to conceed that Paula did indeed supply the source Shane.

Your intimation was that her quote was unreliable and needed verifying, which she did and you have not acknowledged.

Mark :-)