Good Morning + Happy 9-11 to all of U

[fccool]

Quote:

Not true. First there would have had to be a group of people that set it all up. The people that created the disaster. That alone would have been more than a handful. Someone would have had to set explosives throughout the buildings in NY, the Pentagon and field in Pennsylvania. That would have involved a lot of people. And something happened to the planes. Something happened to the people on the planes.

You are correct, that would have to have involved a lot of people. Now, if these people believed that making this type of sacrifice is eventually for good and strength of America... on top of being paid large sums of cash (see 2 trillions are unaccounted for in Pentagon), then I don't think this operation would be impossible to swing.

Many clandestine agencies, such as CIA are compartmentalized and don't release the full info on what they are doing even to Congress. Some of the compartments have little to no oversight from Congress. So, Congress does not have to be involved.

Quote:

Then there is the cover-up. There wasn't just a few organizations that investigated this. There was local, state and federal organizations. Then there was media groups from all over the world. There are thousands involved there. Then we had the 9/11 commission investigating it. So that means Congress itself had to be part of the cover up.

Cover up is not very hard when you have official story channeled through news organizations, and President making a statement about any other possible versions of the account to be "conspiracy theories" that we should not believe.

The planes could be switched with people disposed elsewhere. Then the evidence could be planted on the crash scenes (such as black boxes that were never revealed to public scrutiny).

You make statements as though with technology, compartmentalization and resources that modern clandestine agencies have... and you say that they could not pull something of the sort of.

Quote:

Then, to top it all off, we have Osama bin Laden taking credit for it! There is no mystery - no conspiracy.

Osama actually denied any involvement to the attacks on Sep. 12.

http://www.rediff.com/us/2001/sep/12ny15.htm

Then the "confession tape" came out with the guy that looks like Osama, yet there are many problems with the tape. You can do your research.

Even if Osama did plan these events, I don't believe that intelligent agencies would permit something of the sorts happening. There were numerous warnings from multiple intelligence agencies worldwide about the hijacking plot... yet none were taken into account?????

There are multiple plausible scenarios of how it could be done.

1) Prepare the patsies. Give them US student Visas and set them up at the US air schools. Make them believe that their plot will succeed.

If you really believe that you can go from flying Sesna to flying a commercial air-liner with military precisions... be my guest. I find it hard to believe that people can just do that.

2) Rig the explosive into towers

Quote:

Scott Forbes, an IT specialist in a firm that had leased space in the South Tower since its erection, reported an unprecedented “power down” in his building for almost the whole weekend prior to 9/11.

Scott Forbes: “We were notified three weeks in advance of the power down by the Port Authority. That was relatively short notice to plan to shut down all of our banking systems. It was a big deal. It was unprecedented. We had a data center on the 97th floor, so our originating servers were all there. During that weekend, the power down meant there was no security. The doors were all open, basically. And also, the security video cameras were all off. But, there were guys in overalls carrying huge toolboxes and reels of cable ... walking around the building on that weekend.”

Just another co-incidence, right? Should not be investigated.

3) Set up the Pentagon

Doesn't it bother you a bit that the part of the Pentagon that was hit was also virtually unoccupied due to renovation?

4) Prepare elaborate stories and intelligence about the hijackers (how do you think they got it so fast?).

5) Intercept the flights in mid air and land them at remote facility. Tell the passengers that they are a part of elaborate military exercise. Clone their voice with latest voice morphing technology. Have them loaded up in different set of planes that are remote controlled.

6) Fabricate the calls that are made.

There can actually be two possibilities here.

- Using synthesized morphing

- Using clandestine agents who are going under full time

7) Stage several training military exercises to confuse the military and delay the response.

8) Carry out the theatrics and provide the media with fabricated causes of the collapse.

9) Use the attacks as pretext for get more money and power.

This is actually just one of such scenarios, and could be quite possible without many people involved.

[Gordon1]

Numerous sources say the cell phone network in 2001 could not reach aircraft at cruising altitude.

[fccool]

Numerous sources say the cell phone network in 2001 could not reach aircraft at cruising altitude.

While it's certainly true, the claims are that people made calls from satellite capable phones, and from air-phones.

Again, I don't merely dismiss the official theory. I'm simply questioning it, providing that government involvement is not impossible, and actually quite doable. By "government" I don't really mean "people of congress". By government I mean "military-industrial complex" that would benefit from unlimited war on terror.

If Shane can admit that clandestine organizations with unlimited funding could pull such operation off, then perhaps he should not state the official story as a fact, while many of the questions yet to be answered, and some evidence is still on lock down.

[Dr. Shane]

It would be honorable at this point to conceed that Paula did indeed supply the source Shane.

Indeed, I had not seen that link. My mistake. However I was familiar with the article in the Seattle Times, only that I hadn't seen it sourced to the Seattle Times before. It has been reprinted in other publications. The point I was making is that the calculations done did not take into consideration the damage to the fireproofing the jet impact would make. Some of that fireproofing is fragile and falls off quite easily. When I first got out of college the stuff use to fall off a lot during construction and we, at times, had to go back and do touch up. The stuff I have used in recent years seems to stick on much better. Without the fireproofing, the steel will fail at lower temperatures, which is obviously what happened with WTC 1 & 2. WTC 7 actually suffered impact damage when the towers collapsed and had large amounts of pressurized diesel tanks which fed a fire leading to its collapse.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Here is an aticle from the pulitzer prize winning Seattle Times:

LOL

The Portland Oregonian is also a Pulitzer prize winner. That doesn't mean that everything that proceeds out of its "mouth" is indeed fact.

[Paula]

Originally Posted By: Paula

Here is an aticle from the pulitzer prize winning Seattle Times:

LOL

The Portland Oregonian is also a Pulitzer prize winner. That doesn't mean that everything that proceeds out of its "mouth" is indeed fact.

Rudy, if you knew anything at all about Journalism you would know that it does mean something.

Secondly, the only reason I mentioned that is because at every turn I am told that the sources I am giving are not serious, reliable sources.

But again, it is to be expected that someone who has no argument would resort to making fun, being sarcastic, and just plain silly as have been all your posts on this subject. If you want to have an honest, open, respectful conversation, I am all for it. But you seem to always want to just stir the pot with venom, and honestly it is quite off putting.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

LOL I know a lot about journalism. In fact, I'm editing a book right now.

it is to be expected that someone who has no argument would restore to making fun, being sarcastic, and just plain silly as have been all your posts on this subject.

Just what am I restoring?

I tend not to think too highly of someone's opinion who states she was a journalist, but who then does not follow journalistic predicates, nor gives her background in journalism and/or research abilities.

I think Shane would know a bit more than many others here on the forum because he has construction background, including education and experience.

[Paula]

Rudy,

I gave my credentials, and I gave the names of the papers I wrote for. Maybe you should read every post before making accusations. As for typos and mistakes, I am not writing an article here. At times I am typing on a cellphone, which means the wrong keys will be pushed. I am due to give birth this week, and half the time am typing while caring for 3 kids, and doing a million other little tasks. Hardly conducive to showing off my journalistic skills.

[Gordon1]

I am due to give birth this week...

Congrats Paula. More Truthers!

[Gordon1]

large amounts of pressurized diesel tanks which fed a fire leading to its collapse.

Please Shane,

Neither diesel nor kerosene combustion will melt iron or steel. Check the diesel pickups on your jobsite.

A diesel fire cannot leave molten metal in the sub-basement for weeks to come. Impossible.

[Paula]

lol...

Thanks Gordon!!!!

[Dr. Shane]

If Shane can admit that clandestine organizations with unlimited funding could pull such operation off...

I cannot conceive that there is any way a conspiracy of this size could have even been put together without leaks happening and a cover up would have been even harder.

This summarizes my thinking:

9/11 Conspiracy = Impossible

9/11 Conspiracy Cover-up = More Than Impossible

Again, look at the Lusitania Conspiracy. That involved less people than a 9/11 conspiracy would have and there was less forms of media in existence to expose it. If the government couldn't pull the Lusitania off then, it certainly couldn't have pulled off 9/11 now.

[Dr. Shane]

Neither diesel nor kerosene combustion will melt iron or steel. Check the diesel pickups on your jobsite.

A diesel fire cannot leave molten metal in the sub-basement for weeks to come. Impossible.

The steel does not need to melt. Heat weakens steel. When the twin towers collapsed, flying debris left a 10-story gash in WTC7. WTC7 was designed in such a way that each steel column supported about 2,000 SF of floor space. Thus when flying debris took out some columns, there was a shift that required the remaining columns to carry more weight then they were designed to carry. There was not enough water preasure for the building's sprinkler system to work. A steady supply of diesel from a pressurized tank created enough heat to cause another column to fail and the entire structure toppled down. The firefighters abandoned the fight when they saw the steel bulging. I suppose those that believe in the conspiracy theories think the firefighters are just being paid off to claim they say the steel bulging.

When this happened this is all we talked about for months. I am literally surrounded with engineers, architects and commercial builders every day. To me, it makes perfect sense. Those not familiar with the subject get sucked into wild conspiracy theories because they think diesel needs to melt steel in order for a building to fail. All it takes enough heat for an extended period of time.

[Paula]

Quote:

I suppose those that believe in the conspiracy theories think the firefighters are just being paid off to claim they say the steel bulging.

When this happened this is all we talked about for months. I am literally surrounded with engineers, architects and commercial builders every day. To me, it makes perfect sense. Those not familiar with the subject get sucked into wild conspiracy theories because they think diesel needs to melt steel in order for a building to fail. All it takes enough heat for an extended period of time.

So Shane,

How do you explain the thousands of Architects, Engineers and Physicists who do not believe in the official version of events? What about all the firefighters who do not believe the official version. Why are the opinions of your architect/engineer/builder friends of more worth than that of all the architects/engineers/builders who state that the official version of events is a lie?

You said that ONLY people not familiar with the subject (of architecture/building/engineering) believe in the conspiracy theories. This is not true.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: fccool

If Shane can admit that clandestine organizations with unlimited funding could pull such operation off...

I cannot conceive that there is any way a conspiracy of this size could have even been put together without leaks happening and a cover up would have been even harder.

This summarizes my thinking:

9/11 Conspiracy = Impossible

9/11 Conspiracy Cover-up = More Than Impossible

Again, look at the Lusitania Conspiracy. That involved less people than a 9/11 conspiracy would have and there was less forms of media in existence to expose it. If the government couldn't pull the Lusitania off then, it certainly couldn't have pulled off 9/11 now.

Which media would you expect to expose it anyways? I can tell you it wouldn't come from America. This is what you see in America lol....

[Dr. Shane]

So Shane,

How do you explain the thousands of Architects, Engineers and Physicists who do not believe in the official version of events?

They are crackpots. They think too highly of their own opinion. There are people born like this every day. They have the same problem Lucifer had which is why there was war in heaven. The science is not advanced nor hard to understand. It if very simple and basic.

[Dr. Shane]

Why are the opinions of your architect/engineer/builder friends of more worth than that of all the architects/engineers/builders who state that the official version of events is a lie?

Not just my friends. If it were just my group of friends disagreeing with another handful of people it would be simply anecdotal. Scores of organizations examined the evidence and made reports. I am not just talking about government and media organizations. I am including academic, scientific and trade organizations. I am referring to organizations like the American Society of Civil Engineers, National Institute of Standards and Technology, Society of Fire Protection Engineers, National Fire Protection Association, American Institute of Steel Construction, Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat and National Council of Structural Engineers. All these organizations examining the evidence come to the very similar conclusions. It is important for our industry to understand what went wrong so we can build better buildings. And we are building better buildings as a result of things we learned from 9/11.

[Dr. Shane]

You said that ONLY people not familiar with the subject (of architecture/building/engineering) believe in the conspiracy theories. This is not true.

[Paula]

Quote:

They are crackpots. They think too highly of their own opinion. There are people born like this every day. They have the same problem Lucifer had which is why there was war in heaven. The science is not advanced nor hard to understand. It if very simple and basic.

Wow!!! I can't even reply to that! lol...

Here are some credible sources that DISBELIEVE:

9/11 COMMISSIONERS

The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission (Thomas Keane and Lee Hamilton) said that the CIA (and likely the White House) “obstructed our investigation”.

The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission also said that the 9/11 Commissioners knew that military officials misrepresented the facts to the Commission, and the Commission considered recommending criminal charges for such false statements, yet didn’t bother to tell the American people.

Indeed, the co-chairs of the Commission now admit that the Commission largely operated based upon political considerations.

9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says “I don’t believe for a minute we got everything right”, that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only “the first draft” of history.

9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that “There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn’t have access . . . .”

9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said “We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting”

Former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: “It is a national scandal”; “This investigation is now compromised”; and “One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up”.

9/11 Commissioner John Lehman said that “We purposely put together a staff that had – in a way – conflicts of interest“.

The Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer) who led the 9/11 staff’s inquiry, said “I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described …. The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years…. This is not spin. This is not true.”

[Paula]

CONGRESS

According to the Co-Chair of the Congressional Inquiry into 9/11 and former Head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Bob Graham, a U.S. government informant was the landlord to two of the hijackers for over a year (but the White House refused to let the 9/11 inquiry interview him).

Current U.S. Senator (Patrick Leahy) states “The two questions that the congress will not ask . . . is why did 9/11 happen on George Bush’s watch when he had clear warnings that it was going to happen? Why did they allow it to happen?”

Current Republican Congressman (Ron Paul) calls for a new 9/11 investigation and states that “we see the [9/11] investigations that have been done so far as more or less cover-up and no real explanation of what went on”

Current Democratic Congressman (Dennis Kucinich) hints that we aren’t being told the truth about 9/11

Former Democratic Senator (Mike Gravel) states that he supports a new 9/11 investigation and that we don’t know the truth about 9/11

Former Republican Senator (Lincoln Chaffee) endorses a new 9/11 investigation

Former U.S. Democratic Congressman (Dan Hamburg) says that the U.S. government “assisted” in the 9/11 attacks, stating that “I think there was a lot of help from the inside”

Former U.S. Republican Congressman and senior member of the House Armed Services Committee, and who served six years as the Chairman of the Military Research and Development Subcommittee (Curt Weldon) has shown that the U.S. tracked hijackers before 9/11, is open to hearing information about explosives in the Twin Towers, and is open to the possibility that 9/11 was an inside job

[Paula]

MILITARY LEADERS

Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense under President Ronald Reagan (Col. Ronald D. Ray) said that the official story of 9/11 is “the dog that doesn’t hunt” (bio)

Director of the U.S. “Star Wars” space defense program in both Republican and Democratic administrations, who was a senior air force colonel who flew 101 combat missions (Col. Robert Bowman) stated that 9/11 was an inside job. He also said:

“If our government had merely [done] nothing, and I say that as an old interceptor pilot-I know the drill, I know what it takes, I know how long it takes, I know what the procedures are, I know what they were, and I know what they’ve changed them to-if our government had merely done nothing, and allowed normal procedures to happen on that morning of 9/11, the Twin Towers would still be standing and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive. [T]hat is treason!“

U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director, decorated with the Purple Heart, the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal (Capt. Daniel Davis) stated:

“there is no way that an aircraft . . . would not be intercepted when they deviate from their flight plan, turn off their transponders, or stop communication with Air Traffic Control … Attempts to obscure facts by calling them a ‘conspiracy Theory’ does not change the truth. It seems, ‘Something is rotten in the State.’ “

President of the U.S. Air Force Accident Investigation Board, who also served as Pentagon Weapons Requirement Officer and as a member of the Pentagon’s Quadrennial Defense Review, and who was awarded Distinguished Flying Crosses for Heroism, four Air Medals, four Meritorious Service Medals, and nine Aerial Achievement Medals (Lt. Col. Jeff Latas) is a member of a group which doubts the government’s version of 9/11

U.S. General, Commanding General of U.S. European Command and Supreme Allied Commander Europe, decorated with the Bronze Star, Silver Star, and Purple Heart (General Wesley Clark) said “We’ve never finished the investigation of 9/11 and whether the administration actually misused the intelligence information it had. The evidence seems pretty clear to me. I’ve seen that for a long time.”

Air Force Colonel and key Pentagon official (Lt. Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski) finds various aspects of 9/11 suspicious

Lieutenant colonel, 24-year Air Force career, Vice Chancellor for Student Affairs at the Defense Language Institute (Lt. Colonel Steve Butler) said “Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism.”

Two-Star general (Major General Albert Stubbelbine) questions the attack on the Pentagon

U.S. Air Force fighter pilot, former instructor at the USAF Fighter Weapons School and NATO’s Tactical Leadership Program, with a 20-year Air Force career (Lt. Colonel Guy S. Razer) said the following:

“I am 100% convinced that the attacks of September 11, 2001 were planned, organized, and committed by treasonous perpetrators that have infiltrated the highest levels of our government ….

Those of us in the military took an oath to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic”. Just because we have retired does not make that oath invalid, so it is not just our responsibility, it is our duty to expose the real perpetrators of 9/11 and bring them to justice, no matter how hard it is, how long it takes, or how much we have to suffer to do it.

We owe it to those who have gone before us who executed that same oath, and who are doing the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now. Those of us who joined the military and faithfully executed orders that were given us had to trust our leaders. The violation and abuse of that trust is not only heinous, but ultimately the most accurate definition of treason!”

U.S. Marine Corps lieutenant colonel, a fighter pilot with over 300 combat missions flown and a 21-year Marine Corps career (Lt. Colonel Shelton F. Lankford) believes that 9/11 was an inside job, and said:

“This isn’t about party, it isn’t about Bush Bashing. It’s about our country, our constitution, and our future. …

Your countrymen have been murdered and the more you delve into it the more it looks as though they were murdered by our government, who used it as an excuse to murder other people thousands of miles away.

If you ridicule others who have sincere doubts and who know factual information that directly contradicts the official report and who want explanations from those who hold the keys to our government, and have motive, means, and opportunity to pull off a 9/11, but you are too lazy or fearful, or … to check into the facts yourself, what does that make you? ….

Are you afraid that you will learn the truth and you can’t handle it? …”

U.S. Navy ‘Top Gun’ pilot (Commander Ralph Kolstad) who questions the official account of 9/11 and is calling for a new investigation, says “When one starts using his own mind, and not what one was told, there is very little to believe in the official story”.

The Group Director on matters of national security in the U.S. Government Accountability Office said that President Bush did not respond to unprecedented warnings of the 9/11 disaster and conducted a massive cover-up instead of accepting responsibility

Additionally, numerous military leaders from allied governments have questioned 9/11, such as:

Canadian Minister of Defense, the top military leader of Canada (Paul Hellyer)

Assistant German Defense Minister (Andreas Von Bulow)

Commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy (Anatoli Kornukov)

Chief of staff of the Russian armed forces (General Leonid Ivashov)

[Paula]

more to come....

[Paula]

INTELLIGENCE PROFESSIONALS

Former military analyst and famed whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg recently said that the case of a certain 9/11 whistleblower is “far more explosive than the Pentagon Papers“. He also said that the government is ordering the media to cover up her allegations about 9/11. And he said that some of the claims concerning government involvement in 9/11 are credible, that “very serious questions have been raised about what they [u.S. government officials] knew beforehand and how much involvement there might have been”, that engineering 9/11 would not be humanly or psychologically beyond the scope of the current administration, and that there’s enough evidence to justify a new, “hard-hitting” investigation into 9/11 with subpoenas and testimony taken under oath.

A 27-year CIA veteran, who chaired National Intelligence Estimates and personally delivered intelligence briefings to Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, their Vice Presidents, Secretaries of State, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and many other senior government officials (Raymond McGovern) said “I think at simplest terms, there’s a cover-up. The 9/11 Report is a joke”, and is open to the possibility that 9/11 was an inside job.

A 29-year CIA veteran, former National Intelligence Officer (NIO) and former Director of the CIA’s Office of Regional and Political Analysis (William Bill Christison) said “I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe. … All three [buildings that were destroyed in the World Trade Center] were most probably destroyed by controlled demolition charges placed in the buildings before 9/11.” (and see this).

20-year Marine Corps infantry and intelligence officer, the second-ranking civilian in U.S. Marine Corps Intelligence, and former CIA clandestine services case officer (David Steele) stated that “9/11 was at a minimum allowed to happen as a pretext for war”, and it was probably an inside job (see Customer Review dated October 7, 2006).

A decorated 20-year CIA veteran, who Pulitzer-Prize winning investigative reporter Seymour Hersh called “perhaps the best on-the-ground field officer in the Middle East”, and whose astounding career formed the script for the Academy Award winning motion picture Syriana (Robert Baer) said that“the evidence points at” 9/11 having had aspects of being an inside job .

The Division Chief of the CIA’s Office of Soviet Affairs, who served as Senior Analyst from 1966 – 1990. He also served as Professor of International Security at the National War College from 1986 – 2004 (Melvin Goodman) said “The final [9/11 Commission] report is ultimately a coverup.”

Professor of History and International Relations, University of Maryland. Former Executive Assistant to the Director of the National Security Agency, former military attaché in China, with a 21-year career in U.S. Army Intelligence (Major John M. Newman, PhD, U.S. Army) questions the government’s version of the events of 9/11.

The head of all U.S. intelligence, the Director of National Intelligence (Mike McConnel) said “9/11 should have and could have been prevented”

A number of intelligence officials, including a CIA Operations Officer who co-chaired a CIA multi-agency task force coordinating intelligence efforts among many intelligence and law enforcement agencies (Lynne Larkin) sent a joint letter to Congress expressing their concerns about “serious shortcomings,” “omissions,” and “major flaws” in the 9/11 Commission Report and offering their services for a new investigation (they were ignored).

[Dr. Shane]

Here are some credible sources that DISBELIEVE:

Wrong. I have not seen one Congressional source state that they believe in one of the conspiracy theories. Saying that not all the witnesses were not honest with them is a far cry from saying they believe in a conspiracy theory.

Have those on this forum actually read the 9/11 Commission Report? I bought it as soon as it came out. It is a fascinating report. It is a bit long but worth the reading, especially if you find yourself in airport terminals or places with time on your hands.

[Dr. Shane]

Of interest to some may be the the WTC were designed to stand up to a hurricane. The wind places more of a tensile load on the structure than a jet impact. So any high-rise that can handle hurricane-force winds can handle the impact of a jet crash. What brought down the buildings was the 1-2 punch. The impact, knocking off the fireproofing, followed by the blaze.