Massive 8.9 quake hits Japan, then Tsunami

[Dr. Shane]

Bravus, when was the last time you said, "I was wrong. I must have been misinformed. The claim that I made so confidently is factually incorrect. Now I know the truth about it."?

I can tell you when the last time I said that was. It was the week before last. It was in a disagreement I was having with my children's principal.

[Bravus]

I've said it a number of times here. Whenever someone has shown something I've said to be incorrect, I have corrected myself and apologised.

I'm not holding myself up as any paragon of virtue - I'm probably wrong about almost everything - but not bearing false witness *is* one of the commandments.

It would be nice to see those who are so concerned about doctrinal correctness be at least a little bit concerned with bearing true witness.

[Dr. Shane]

Let's look at Matthew 24 and assume the Bible is inspired, Jesus is who He claimed to be and this passage means something.

4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray.

5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.

6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled: for these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet.

7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places.

8. But all these things are the beginning of travail.

9. Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake.

10. And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.

11. And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.

12. And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.

13. But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.

Don't verses 4-12 seem to describe the world as it has been for the last 2,000 years? Must these things become more frequent in order for Christ's words to be seen as being fulfilled?

I don't expect earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, wars and political strife to increase in frequency. My goodness, let's look at World War 2. Does anyone expect war to exceed that before Jesus will come? Let's look at the tribulation of the Dark Ages and the communist nations. I expect these things to be reported and sensationalized more and more as we draw closer to the coming of Christ.

Perception is reality. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a noise? A scientist may argue that it does but really... If no one hears it,,, no one hears it. If the noise from every tree that ever falls was broadcast across the world we would all be up in arms about our forests falling down.

[Bravus]

The claims made were not about perception, they were about reality. I'm off to a tute now and don't have time to dig up the exact quote, but John317 said something to the effect 'No-one can deny that earthquakes are becoming more frequent'.

You're explaining your view, not deflecting for others, Shane, but it's a deflection nonetheless.

As comedian Dara O'Briain says 'Incidence of zombies is at an all time low, but fear of zombies is increasing'. All it means is that the perception is irrational.

[Bravus]

Here's that quote:

They know the Bible talks about more earthquakes happening toward the end of time, and who can deny they are not happening more often and with greater intensity these days?

There's a bit of a maze of double negatives, but it's clear what he was trying to say.

Note that I'm not having a go at John317 personally, and avoided naming names as long as possible. Others have participated in the same behaviour - just re-read the last 3-4 pages of this thread.

I really just feel we bring the gospel into disrepute when we use untruths or inaccuracies to promote it. The Truth is better served by truth.

[Woody]

Quote:

So are we looking for signs or looking for Christ? The time of the end started a long time ago, when A & E left the garden I believe.

Excellent point there CoA

[Woody]

Here's that quote:

Originally Posted By: John317

They know the Bible talks about more earthquakes happening toward the end of time, and who can deny they are not happening more often and with greater intensity these days?

There's a bit of a maze of double negatives, but it's clear what he was trying to say.

Note that I'm not having a go at John317 personally, and avoided naming names as long as possible. Others have participated in the same behaviour - just re-read the last 3-4 pages of this thread.

I really just feel we bring the gospel into disrepute when we use untruths or inaccuracies to promote it. The Truth is better served by truth.

Point well taken Bravus.

[Woody]

I keep on hoping, but it never happens: one day, in my dreams, someone here will say "I was wrong. I must have been misinformed. The claim that I made so confidently is factually incorrect. Know I know the truth about it."

Never happens, though. The ground gets shifted or the issue dropped.

The truth is important.

Bravus ... I have to admit that I was right that you were right. The others must be misinformed. The claims they have made are factually incorrect.

[Igakusei]

I've been thinking lately that life on this earth is not worth much anyways.

Considering that life on this Earth is almost certainly all that we have, I consider mentalities like this extremely harmful. I mean after all, why bother to fix society's problems when letting the Earth rot is just going to speed up the (glorious) end of the world?

Think of how much human suffering and misery is caused around the world by ideas like this. Your philosophy is extremely prevalent in the Muslim world for instance, which is one major reason why they have a lot of the problems they do socially.

[Woody]

Sounds like you deserve being sad far more than I do with a belief like that. My home is in Heaven ... not here.

So ... here's to U :

[Igakusei]

Sounds like you deserve being sad far more than I do with an attitude like that. My home is in Heaven ... not here.

Just ask yourself what the world would be like if everyone adopted your attitude with respect to life on this planet.

It would really, really suck. All the nice things about modern civilization that you take for granted; it's all going away. I was talking to a friend who lives in Egypt (this was before the recent events), and he said that basically it was an extremely stratified and unfair society, but that nobody cared to do anything about it because they were all just sitting on their butts waiting for the real show to start.

Can you not see how this is a bad thing?

[Woody]

We come from two polar opposites.

I look to a future beyond this life.

You feel earth is all you get.

Kinda hard to relate to each other.

[Bravus]

My take on this has always been to live as though both are true. I think it's a fallacy to believe having our eyes on eternity means (1) we lose out in this life or (2) that we ought to trash the earth.

On (2), people have been waiting for the second coming since Jesus left. It could be tomorrow (OK, probably not on Adventist theology because there's stuff to happen) but it could be in 100 or 1,000 years. It's not good stewardship of the world God made for us and entrusted to us to trash it.

On (1) Jesus came to give us abundant life. That should mean life with Him is *better* than life without, not worse. If there's a heaven, excellent, if there's not, we've still lived the most abundant life available.

[Woody]

I agree with you Bravus.

Of course I didn't read anyone suggesting that we trash the earth.

I did mention that our life here on earth is not worth much in spiritual terms compared to heaven. And I do believe that it is important to put that in it's proper prespective.

[Igakusei]

I agree with you Bravus.

Of course I didn't read anyone suggesting that we trash the earth.

I did mention that our life here on earth is not worth much in spiritual terms compared to heaven. And I do believe that it is important to put that in it's proper prespective.

I agree with Bravus; the problem in my opinion is when people sacrifice the quality of life of the people around them in this life in hopes of a better life later.

When Christians tell people that they're going to go to Hell if they use condoms which results in said people dying of AIDS, it's not a positive thing. This is probably easy for you to agree with since you probably don't accept the Catholic church's stance on either birth control or Hell, but Adventist theology isn't free from its own share of these problems too.

How many families have been destroyed because one spouse thinks the other isn't going to be in Heaven? Mine was.

[cricket]

My apologies. Please take no offense.

[Woody]

I believe He wants us to live an abundant life but not in this life time. This life is for sacrifice.

Those who are having it good might promote the idea that it is meant to be good. But many of us suffer and don't have much good to say about life on Earth.

[Dr. Shane]

You're explaining your view, not deflecting for others, Shane, but it's a deflection nonetheless.

I wasn't trying to defend what others had posted. My point was simply that it is reasonable for a believer to view these natural disasters as a sign of the end.

Let's consider Christ's teaching about wars *increasing*. Nation rising against nation, etc. Well, has there ever been a time of relative world peace that could be contrast with wide-spread war? I think not. The only way I can make sense of that passage is that these things will be reported more frequently. It will be the talk of the town. We will be talking about this disaster and then that. A war here and a war there. That coincides with the increase in knowledge. What happens in Egypt, India, England or Japan is instantly broadcast around the world. That is the only way that passage makes sense to me.

Perception is reality. Those that doubt that, the next time they offend their wife and she starts crying or gets angry, try telling her that she didn't understand you.

[Bravus]

I believe He wants us to live an abundant life but not in this life time. This life is for sacrifice.

Those who are having it good might promote the idea that it is meant to be good. But many of us suffer and don't have much good to say about life on Earth.

Yeah, I was thinking after I wrote the above, Woody, that I have it a lot easier physically than you do, and I was speaking from my own perspective. For those for whom a full-body makeover is going to be a huge deal, I can definitely see that hunger to get started being much stronger! I pray it happens real soon.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I find it interesting that nobody has included the EGW proclamation that the Lisbon earthquake of 1755 was the fulfillment of the "great earthquake" prophecy in the Bible:

Quote:

Prophecy not only foretells the manner and object of Christ’s coming, but presents tokens by which men are to know when it is near. Said Jesus: “There shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars.” [Luke 21:25.] “The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.” [Mark 13:24-26.] The Revelator thus describes the first of the signs to precede the second advent: “There was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon become as blood.” [Revelation 6:12.] {GC88 304.1}

These signs were witnessed before the opening of the present century. In fulfillment of this prophecy there occurred, in the year 1755, the most terrible earthquake that has ever been recorded. Though commonly known as the earthquake of Lisbon, it extended to the greater part of Europe, Africa, and America. It was felt in Greenland, in the West Indies, in the island of Madeira, in Norway and Sweden, Great Britain and Ireland. It pervaded an extent of not less than four million square miles. In Africa the shock was almost as severe as in Europe. A great part of Algiers was destroyed; and a short distance from Morocco, a village containing eight or ten thousand inhabitants was swallowed up. A vast wave swept over the coast of Spain and Africa, engulfing cities, and causing great destruction. {GC88 304.2}

If the Lisbon earthquake was the fulfillment, and it wasn't even the most powerful earthquake, why would God impose another and another and another earthquake of even greater proportions on a myriad of places around the world? In contrast to Sodom, in which no righteous person could be found, Japan, New Zealand, United States, Australia, etc., have quite a number of righteous people in their midst.

To tell the truth, I'm a bit embarrassed at the idea being promoted that God is punishing Japan because of evil done there.

No....I'm TOTALLY embarrassed at the idea.

[Dr. Shane]

But many of us suffer and don't have much good to say about life on Earth.

"Let not your heart be troubled..." You know the rest of the passage, don't you? John 14:1-3 simply tells believers not to worry about the conditions they have to endure during this life because God is preparing something better for us and will come back and take us there.

This world is not my home. I'm going to upgrade from a trailer house to a mansion.

[Dr. Shane]

If the Lisbon earthquake was the fulfillment, and it wasn't even the most powerful earthquake...

[Stan]

To tell the truth, I'm a bit embarrassed at the idea being promoted that God is punishing Japan because of evil done there.

No....I'm TOTALLY embarrassed at the idea.

My theory radical as it is, is this.... they had an earthquake because there is a fault on the earth beneath them.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Exactly, Stan.

Westboro Baptist Church has no need for branch offices.

[ClubV12]

The biggest earth quake to ever hit Japan, might happen once in a thousand years is the estimate, then a tsunami, close to shore, very fast, no warning. But wait, theres more, the worst is yet to come!

A nuclear accident with no end in sight yet, a half dozen reactors impacted. A week later no one is sure how the nuclear incident will end, how bad it might become. Fear, long lasting fear, men's hearts failing them from fear. Radiation poisoning is one such immense fear, and that fear is spreading across the PLANET. Doctors are unable to assure their patients that "everything will be OK". They don't know if it will be, or not. Medical science does not know enough about radiation poisoning to say for sure who will, and who will not, become a victim over time. Fear that will continue for a life time. It cannot be dismissed by the planets most brilliant scientists. Radiation, an enemy you can't see, can't detect, you can only wait,,, for the cancer. Maybe it will come, maybe not... There is no hope in science, perhaps Buddah will provide their answers? Who else will they turn too? The vast majority don't even recognize His name.

Just another fault zone? Just another earth quake? Just another nuclear melt down? A triple hit! Just a litte fear that will soon be over and they will rebuild and move on? No, they will be living this nightmare for a generation or more, as they wait to see who among them will get sick from the radiation. Wondering every time their child gets sick, is it beginning? Regardless of who does, or doesn't get sick, the fear will remain. Idodine is sold out in the USA, I wonder what the supply is in Japan? I wonder how desperate they will become to obtain it? For themselves, for their children.

No worries, put your faith in science, uh, they do have all the answers, right?