Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[miz3]

Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment?

I have never seen this term used in the Bible?

Is this a concept? If so where is the Biblical backing for this concept?

When does the BIBLE say such an investigation takes place? What does the Bible say is its purpose? Who gets investigated? Who does the investigating?

[Kevin H]

It Starts in Gen 1:4 "And God saw the light, that it was good" and other similar verses in the chapter. Genesis 3:9 does not read "I know where you are and what you did!!!" but "Where art thou?" and 3:11 is God kindly asking questions. Genesis 4:9 "Where is Able thy brother?" Genesis 11:5 "And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower"

Some may want my head for this, but Psalm 82 has God standing among a heavenly host threatening them for how things are going on the earth in the areas they are in charge of. Some scholars and commentaries related this to Genesis 18 and 19 that the angels incharge of Sodom and Gamorah wanted God to investigate to see if they were guilty of the charges in Psalm 82 or if it is that the people in these cities had become unmanageable to them. If these scholars are correct then these angels are replying to the charges of Psalm 82 with a request that God performed an investigative judgment on them (it is not the cities that are having an investigative judgment, they are the evidence for the investigative judgment on the angels.)

Exodus 2:25 And God looked upon the children of Israel and had respect unto them.

In the Bible, every time before God does something major, especially if it is in a way of working for his people and doing something special for someone he holds an investigative judgment.

The investigative judgment was a part of ancient judicial systems in the near east and also played a part in their religion. The Canaanites would call for the gods to perform an investigative judgment on them so see if they should receive what they are asking for.

As for our Adventist Investigative Judgment, I may fill this in detail later, but althought not all Adventists agree on the nature of what Hell Fire is. For those of us who believe that heaven and hell are two responses to physically seeing God in all God's brightness, glory and love, there needs to be something sometime that fits the investigative judgment idea, so for some of us this point is the first point in our study of the investigative judgment. For those who see a literal fire hell where God roasts and toasts people in a shortened version of the Baptist-Catholic hell this would not be a point that needs to be related to the investagative judgment.

Another point is that humans have degraded over the 2,000 years since the apostels lived, and Satan and the demons have gained 2,000 years more knowlege in how to tempt us and it is only fair for God to do something for us to help with this gap. If Satan is going to be allowed to do more, then God should also be allowed to do more.

Another point is in the universal issue and implications of the Great Controversy the angels and the unfallen worlds better understand their own salvation and relationship to God in how God has united justice and mercy in saving sinners. It is only fair for them to have a chance to review the lives of those who claimed to be Christians and to either see just how they allowed Jesus to save them, or if they only gave lipservice and how they refused.

Related to this, it would be good for you to either get the (sadly out of print) book "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others, 1946 university of Chicago press, or read other books or articles about the ancient word's view of the universe and cycles and relationship to the sacred mountains. The ancients believed that events on heaven and earth reflected each other. Armies could have a battle of champions because since they were reflections of the gods, the god who won would be the god who would win in the war whether it was the whole army or just 2 people. The investigative judgment will make a lot more sense to you if you can read Frankfort's book or even some good scholarly articles in say commentaries or Biblical histories etc.

Anyway, with the reflection of so in heaven as on earth, if God was going to do something major for us on earth, there would be a counter event in heaven. And if we were to look at religion starting in the mid-1800s we would discover that we are in a whole new situation from how it was before the mid 1800s. Before the mid 1800s you tended to have people who for the most part believed in God, but may not have followed him, there were good people and bad people but they both tended to believe in God Higher criticism was started in the 1700s but by believers who were just looking at different writing styles and editings of the texts. In the mid 1800s we had the rise of evolution, people becoming athestic, higher criticism being taken over by athiests who saw editing as a sign of evolution and believed that the Bible was just a collection of myths that followed human evolution, and a conservative backlash to that of fundamentalism, and since traditional historisism (which until Adventists came along and placed it in stone) was flexable as new things were discovered about the Bible, the Fundamentalists choose Dispensationalism with their more set in stone interpetation of the prophecies.

With this growth in evolution, it would be natural for God to raise up a people keeping the cultic symbol of creationism, the Sabbath. But also during this time period there were great break throughs in Bible study. In the 1830s Robinson explored the Holy Land finding many of the lost places in the Bible and starting the study of Biblical Geography which opened the door to Biblical Archaeology. Among both liberal and conservative scholars there have been break throughts in studying the linguistic structures of the Bible, Chiasims, parrelism, other poetic forms and other literary forms. Archaeologests found many ancient manuscripts that explain Biblical words. The ancient world has been rediscovered and thus we are able to study the Bible like never before. We can study the Bible in a way that people like Calvin, Luther, Tyndal, Usher etc. could not even dream of. How they would love to live today with these ancient discoveries since the mid 1800s.

With these advances in Bible study, yes some can make it just dry study, but it gives us the chance to learn more about the Bible. As we learn about the Bible more, we can learn more about the God of the Bible and as we behold clearer this God of the Bible, by beholding we become changed into his likeness. And with advances in transportation and technology, it is easier to do things such as short term mission service, to go out on a medical missionary boat, or easier to financially support missionaries.

Thus we have the ancient world's idea of the reflection between heaven and earth. As the angels and unfallen world studies us to see how Jesus saves us it deepens their love for Jesus and helps them to understand their own salvation better. And as we investigate the words of scripture in light of the rediscovery of the ancient world, and use the technology to minister to others around the world, we have tools like never before to love the world as Jesus has loved it, which prepares us for heaven. It prepars us to find it being heaven to be with Jesus instead of making his pressence a consuming fire.

[miz3]

I hope you will answer my questions directly. What you have written so far is very interesting.

Am I correct that the term "Investigative Judgment" is not used in the Bible?

Pleas explain for me my other questions.

Oh, one further question: In your writing Kevin H it seemed to me that God (the good one) has no advantage over the Evil One. Is this a true characterization of your position. Again, please explain. Thank you.

[Gerr]

Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment?

I have never seen this term used in the Bible?

If you are looking for the term "investigative judgment" the way you were looking for "free moral agent", or if you were to look for "Trinity", you won't find it.

Quote:

Is this a concept? If so where is the Biblical backing for this concept?

Plenty of evidence if you are willing to see.

Fact #1. ESV | Ps 9:7 But the LORD sits enthroned forever; he has established his throne for justice, 8 and he judges the world with righteousness; he judges the peoples with uprightness.

ESV | 1 Pe 4:5 but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Fact #2. Judgment is according to works.

ESV | Ro 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will render to each one according to his works:

Fact #3. God does not give a verdict without first checking the evidence.

NASB95 | Dt 13:12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to live in, anyone saying that 13 some worthless men have gone out from among you and have seduced the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom you have not known), 14 then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. crite.If it is true and the matter established that this abomination has been done among you,

then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly- NIV

NASB95 | Dt 19:18 “The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and he has his brother falsely,

Fact #4. Those judged are judged by what is in the records.

ESV | Da 7:10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

ESV | Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Fact #5. Judgment is necessary to separate the good from the bad, the righteous from the wicked, the sincere from the hypocrite.

ESV | Mt 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. 49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous

ESV | Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

[skyblue888]

Try also the parable of Matt.22. At the end of the third call of the parable which is the loud cry, it is said that the king comes into the room to examine the guests. This is a work of judgment, of investigative judgment.

Try the parable of the net. The net is cat into the sea and when the ship is full of fish, good and bad, it goes to shore and the fish are examined, sorted out, and the bad are thrown back into the sea. This is work of investigation. This takes place when the mission of the Gospel is completed prior to the close of probation.

sky

[miz3]

Great we now know that the term is not in the Bible. Of course this does not mean that such a concept does not exist.

I read the texts on Judgment and agree that the Bible indeed states in the clearest of tones without ambiguity that God indeed will Judge everything.

The part I still have a question about is the part below your "Fact#3". These texts seem to deal only with human to human stuff, and not God to human stuff.

Why does God need an "Investigative Judgment" if He already knows everything?

[Kevin H]

I hope you will answer my questions directly. What you have written so far is very interesting.

Am I correct that the term "Investigative Judgment" is not used in the Bible?

Pleas explain for me my other questions.

Oh, one further question: In your writing Kevin H it seemed to me that God (the good one) has no advantage over the Evil One. Is this a true characterization of your position. Again, please explain. Thank you.

As Gery and Sky pointed out, while you don't find the term "Investagative Judgment" you do find the consept. Apperently James White came up with the term to explain what they were starting to see, however I've also heard it mentioned in lectures about ancient court system language in the Bible.

What do you mean about the infinite creator not having any advantage over a mere creature?

[miz3]

KevinH,

You stated: "Another point is that humans have degraded over the 2,000 years since the apostels lived, and Satan and the demons have gained 2,000 years more knowlege in how to tempt us and it is only fair for God to do something for us to help with this gap. If Satan is going to be allowed to do more, then God should also be allowed to do more."------KevinH author of this statement.

This statement you made (as quoted directly above) puzzles me. Maybe I stated my question wrongly and/or badly. It appeared to me you were putting God's work on an even basis with Satan's work as if the Two Great Powers have to work things out evenly with neither having an advantage.

[Kevin H]

Great we now know that the term is not in the Bible. Of course this does not mean that such a concept does not exist.

I read the texts on Judgment and agree that the Bible indeed states in the clearest of tones without ambiguity that God indeed will Judge everything.

The part I still have a question about is the part below your "Fact#3". These texts seem to deal only with human to human stuff, and not God to human stuff.

Why does God need an "Investigative Judgment" if He already knows everything?

Because God is in love with us. If a husband knows what flowers are, why should he buy some to share with his wife? God did not need to ask Adam and Eve where they were. God did not need to look down to see the tower. God did not need to investigate the angel's claims that they were unable to manage Sodom and Gamorah. These are all God to human stuff, and it is things that people need.

There is some confusion on our Western definations compaired to the Eastern thought and definations. Which is why I was encouraging you to read Frankfort's book.

In the west we take the word Judgment as something negative. And the Reformers limited the defination of the word "Atonement" only to Jesus' death on the cross. When discussion the reformer's thought it is correct to know this is what they meant when using the word. However like our word "Mouse" where we may be discussing a rodent, a part of a computer, or an entertainment/recreation complex, we have to find out not only the word and have a one size fits all defination. So the Hebrew Word "Kipper" from which we translate as either atonment or judgment, simply means anything that God does out of the ordnary to reveal himself and can deepen his relationship with his people that is a blessing to those who accept it, and a disadvantage to those who reject it.

The very first kipper was when the first created being opened his eyes and saw his creator. Kippers were around before sin was, and they will occure long after sin is gone, because there is always more we can learn about God and we have a God who loves us and loves to do special things for us to deepen our relationship with him.

A fantastic example of a Hebrew kipper is the birth of Jesus, A blessing to the shepherds and wise men, and a horror to Herod.

The idea of the Investiagative Judgment is based on a Hebrew Kipper, that we are living in a special time where the increased work of Satan is ballanced by God not being passive, but being active in an action to deepen our relationship.

[Kevin H]

KevinH,

You stated: "Another point is that humans have degraded over the 2,000 years since the apostels lived, and Satan and the demons have gained 2,000 years more knowlege in how to tempt us and it is only fair for God to do something for us to help with this gap. If Satan is going to be allowed to do more, then God should also be allowed to do more."------KevinH author of this statement.

This statement you made (as quoted directly above) puzzles me. Maybe I stated my question wrongly and/or badly. It appeared to me you were putting God's work on an even basis with Satan's work as if the Two Great Powers have to work things out evenly with neither having an advantage.

That is reading a lot more into my words than the words are saying. God does not need to help us in our disadvantaged position as Satan gains more of an advantage, but why wouldn't he?

[miz3]

Any translation of the word "kipper" I ever saw translated the word to "smoked fish".

Where do you get "atonement" and "judgment"?

[Sonny]

Why does God need an "Investigative Judgment" if He already knows everything?

Because there is an accuser, Satan. He persistently insists that God can not legally allow you, Miz3, into heaven. Why? You are a sinner and even after conversion you still fall short of God's agape as found in the life of Christ. So in the judgment God defends you in Himself against the claims of Satan. In Christ you stand perfect, but if you present your own self-righteousness, as did Job, then God can't defend you. You will have to convince God's law you are righteous. Do you know what will happen. The law will condemn you and Satan will have his way.

[phkrause]

Any translation of the word "kipper" I ever saw translated the word to "smoked fish".

Where do you get "atonement" and "judgment"?

Here read this

http://www.koinoniablog.net/2008/12/hebrew-corner-14-atonement-kipper.html

[ClubV12]

"Fact #3. God does not give a verdict without first checking the evidence."

That reminds me of how God made a personal visit to Sodom to verify the cities condition prior to it's destruction.

[Gail]

I have heard also Rev.14:7 interpreted like this:

Quote:

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

This person understood the verse saying that HIS judgment has come, as if God was the one being judged.

That might not be that far off... how many times have you heard someone blaming God for some bad event or death? An investigation of the books in heaven (the verifiable information) would vindicate God AND people before Satan the father of all liars and the accuser.

[John317]

Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment?

It ain't. James White was the first one to use the expression. There are other terms not found in the Bible, such as "incarnation," "Trinity," "omnicient," and "omnipresent." The main thing is that the Bible contains the concepts. In the case of the IJ, the Bible does teach a pre-Advent Judgment, which is the same thing.

[John317]

Why does God need an "Investigative Judgment" if He already knows everything?

The Bible itself says that God tests and examines and investigates people's hearts and minds.

Romans 8:27

And he who searches [or investigates]hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Rev. 2:23

and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches [investigates] mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.

Look up eueunao in Arndt and Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon.

The Greek word used is the same one that is used today in Greece for what the police do when they investigate a crime.

You ought to get the book, The Silencing of Satan the Gospel of The Investigative Judgment, by Bradley R. Williams. He shows the Bible evidence for the Investigative judgment. There's another excellent book that does this, called, The Case for the Investigative Judgment, by Marvin Moore.

[John317]

Why does God need an "Investigative Judgment" if He already knows everything?

Of course the investigation is not for God's benefit. It is for the benefit of the whole universe. There are more intelligent beings involved in learning about how God deals with sin than merely people. The Bible says even the angels have an interest at stake in this.

Don't you think they are interrested to see how God deals with their former friends and neighbors who rebelled against God?

There are also the other beings on other planets that God made before He made the earth. They also are watching. The earth is indeed like a theater. Think of how God allowed the universe watch Job being tested. Was Job serving God for what he could get out of God? That was Satan's accusation. God knew better but God allowed Job to demonstrate his faithfulness. That was better than God merely pronouncing that Job wasn't doing what Satan accused him of doing.

So in the Investigative Judgment, God allows the universe to look clsely at the facts and see if God is being fair and loving. God is not doing these things in a dark corner. God wants the whole universe to see. He allows the creaturely universe to participate as part of the jury and render its verdict. God could impose a verdict, but he refuses to do it. The entire process is open for the eyes of all to see. That is how our God is.

[miz3]

Ok I see, that is fascinating info. However, I still have a further question.

If the "books of heaven" are the "verifiable evidence" how do we know that God didn't "cook" the books to say what He wants it to say? I would think Satan would bring that up. Its called in today's parlance as a "conflict of interest". If God (and His Kingdom) as well as you and I are investigated in this pre-Advent Judgment as well as in the "FINAL JUDGMENT" who will be the "independent arbiter"? If God investigates Himself how can we or Satan ever be sure that God in His awesomeness and infinite power is being fair and truthful? It seems to me that the "fix" is in!

We would never, ever let this take place in a free society. Such investigations and court trials on those lines above take place in dictatorships, Nazi Germany, old Soviet Union, and Sadaam's Iraq, etc. Is this the kind of picture we want to be associated with?

Of course it is Ok if you are one of the cronies! Ir is not Ok if you believe your getting shafted. Unless you are so intimidated that you won't even dare say "I was shafted". God could do that and make it look like He's not doing it.

[Kevin H]

First, how do we know that the Bible was not cooked? We trust the Bible based on the evidence that the Bible is trustworthy.

Second, for the angels and unfallen words, this is a review and a closer looking at what they had already seen, God can't cook the books too much otherwise Gabriel would say "Wait a minute, I was there, this happened and you have it recorded as that happening"

Third, we are talking about heavenly technology in recording what happened, which the lost will see in a panorama at the end of the thousand years, the crude idea of books is so that John and his readers could have some reference to their technology

[Gerr]

The part I still have a question about is the part below your "Fact#3". These texts seem to deal only with human to human stuff, and not God to human stuff.

Why does God need an "Investigative Judgment" if He already knows everything?

There has already been several responses to this, so I'll just add to it. If EGW or HMS Richards were to wind up in hell, most SDAs will wonder why. If Hitler or Stalin were to wind up in heaven, ALL their victims will wonder why. How will God show that they belong where they are?

[Gerr]

When does the BIBLE say such an investigation takes place?

1. ESV | Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

2. ESV Re 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

From these two verses, there are some conclusions I can make:

1. For most people their judgment come after death.

2. Since not all people are dead when Jesus comes, those living must have their judgment before He comes.

If you believe in SDA eschatology, we are now in the antitypical day of Atonement. It started at the end of the 2300 days of Dan 8:14. That scene by the prophet in Dan 7:9-10 is now taking place.

Quote:

What does the Bible say is its purpose?

Some answers have already been given:

1. To separate the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the chaff, the foolish from the wise virgins, the bad from the good fish, those that have Christ's robe from those that have THEIR OWN robe.

2. Satan charged God of lying about the nature of sin (see Gen 3). The judgment will vindicate His character. It will clear all questions about the way He has managed His creation.

3. It will clear all questions about why one is saved or lost.

Quote:

Who gets investigated? Who does the investigating?

The Bible is clear as to who is the judge and who is being judged. My opening post showed all that. I reject the interpretation of some that God is being judged in Rev 14:6. If God is the one being investigated, then why are we commanded to "Fear God?" However, there is a sense in which God is being judged. Judges are judged in the court of public opinion as to HOW they conduct themselves in the courtroom.

[Gerr]

Ok I see, that is fascinating info. However, I still have a further question.

If the "books of heaven" are the "verifiable evidence" how do we know that God didn't "cook" the books to say what He wants it to say? I would think Satan would bring that up.

That's why God requires 2 or 3 witnessess to establish fact. He followed His own requirement when He visited Sodom & Gomorrah with 2 angels with Him. Even Satan will bow the knee in the end, that God was just after all.

[John317]

By the time it's all over, you will find that it's all been "recorded"-- all of our lives, our words, motives, actions,etc. Also, as Kevin mentioned, there will be witnesses-- the angels recorded everything, good as well as bad, acts of kindness and mercy, our sins, our confessions of sin and repentence, our love for Christ and our love for others, etc.

Why would God "cook the books" in order to keep people out of heaven? He has already proved that He wants people saved more than we ourselves want to be saved. God has already proved that He loves people infinitely.

As Gerry said, too, before it's all over, every single human being will declare FREELY that God is right. Satan and the evil angels will agree that God is just and merciful.

The tragedy is that it will be too late to save them, because they won't change. God won't make them change and they have already decided their character. God accepts their choices. At that time everyone will acknowledge that they were free to decide to either serve God or serve themselves and the devil.

[Kevin H]

By the time it's all over, you will find that it's all been "recorded"-- all of our lives, our words, motives, actions,etc. Also, as Kevin mentioned, there will be witnesses-- the angels recorded everything, good as well as bad, acts of kindness and mercy, our sins, our confessions of sin and repentence, our love for Christ and our love for others, etc.

Why would God "cook the books" in order to keep people out of heaven? He has already proved that He wants people saved more than we ourselves want to be saved. God has already proved that He loves people infinitely.

As Gerry said, too, before it's all over, every single human being will declare FREELY that God is right. Satan and the evil angels will agree that God is just and merciful.

The tragedy is that it will be too late to save them, because they won't change. God won't make them change and they have already decided their character. God accepts their choices. At that time everyone will acknowledge that they were free to decide to either serve God or serve themselves and the devil.

Amen!!!