Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

To throw out her writings in favor of the bible and the bible alone would be a huge mistake, in my opinion.

"God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms....Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support." GC 595

"Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light [the Bible]."

As long as we are quoting what Ellen White said, we might as well recall that Ellen White was very clear that her books should be in all Adventist homes and that people should be studying them.

There's no contradiction between studying the Bible and studying the writings of Ellen White. We can and should do both.

Her advice to HMS Richards was first to study the Bible and then turn to her books to find what she wrote on any particular verse or topic. If we don't do this, we are only hurting ourselves. You can be sure it's what Jack Sequiera does. His books frequently quote her.

[John317]

Maybe I stated my question wrongly and/or badly.

A better title of the thread would be, "Is the Concept of the Investigative Judgment Found in the Bible?"

I will change it to that title if you are OK with it.

[John317]

Please show you proof that the Holy Spirit spoke to Paul and and Ellen White....

What proof do you have that the Holy Spirit spoke to John the Beloved or to the author of First John? What "proof" that God spoke to Matthew?

There is no "proof" that the Holy Spirit inspired any of the prophets, but there is very good evidence. I would say the same about Paul and Ellen White.

The evidence is in their ministry and in their writings.

Each person must make up his own mind, the same with regards to Christ. Some people read the Bible and aren't persuaded that Christ is God and alive in heaven. But others are.

[John317]

To blaspheme the Spirit is to say She spoke to someone that She did not speak to and taught someone something that was a lie.

Can you show where Jesus (or any other part of the Scriptures)referred to the Holy Spirit as "she"?

[ClubV12]

John, what did anybody know of the doctrine of the investigative judgment prior to 1844,or the meaning of 1844 itself?

Any book, worthy of consideration, on the subject of 1844 or the investigative judgement could not have been written prior to 1844 because God hid the knowledge. Of course it's in the bible, but we couldn't see it, because He had His hand over it!

That is why my position is:

Remove EGW from the picture and you remove the source through which God communicated this important knowledge to mankind.

My position should not be confused with miz3's opinion. Miz3 denies the investigative judgement can be found in the bible at all, I do not believe that. I believe it took a special revelation before we could find it in the bible.

[miz3]

Richard Holbrook,

I am sorry you feel the way you do. However, I do not mind giving Bible Studies to anyone in need. You are in need so I will give you a Bible Study.

Our topic today will be the "interpretation portion" of Daniel chapter 7. This is where the angel tells Daniel the interpretation of what Daniel saw in his vision.

Daniel chapter 7 is a continuation of visions. In this vision Daniel sees the same four(4) beasts that he has seen before in previous chapters of Daniel. These four Kingdoms are indeed Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. It is this fourth beast (Rome) that intrigues Daniel the most. So Daniel inquires about this fourth beast and what it means.

The angel tells Daniel:

“He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.” Daniel 7:23-25.

Rome indeed did devour more of earth’s territory than any of the other of named kingdoms. Rome indeed had 10 Emperors (look at the list of Roman Emperors there actually is more than 10) that ruled with autocratic power. One of these Emperors will take out two other kings. Also under Rome Israel was subdued.

I am not going into any more detail concerning history for this is not a lesson in history. The main fact is that God through this Angel messenger is telling Daniel what is to come for his people (the Children of Israel no one else!).

“But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.” Daniel 7:26-27.

Did you notice the words “the court will sit”? In other words the court will sit and pass judgment on the fourth beast. It is not saying that judgment is made on anything but the fourth beast.

This is like in other Old Testament passages when God passed judgment on Moab, Assyria, Israel (the northern kingdom), etc. This judgment of God is not some pervasive all-consuming judgment on a worldwide basis. It does not say this is a "judgment of the God's people" which you assert is what the "Investigative Judgment" is all about. You are reading into the Bible stuff that is not in evidence.

You are clearly wrong in your applications Richard Holbrook. You are making applications that are not supported by the passages of Daniel chapter 7.

No “Investigative Judgment here!

[Gerr]

If you admit that the "Investigative Judgment" is:

1. Not in the Bible.

2. This Doctrine is only found in Ellen White.

3. That SDA have gotten this Doctrine from only Ellen White and thus are not being honest when the say they get all their Doctrines from the Bible and the Bible only.

4. That SDA need to be clear and honest as to what the role of Ellen White is, not only in the formation of the SDA Church, but her continuing role in the SDA Church today.

What is the matter with you? Do you accept that something is the Bible ONLY if the exact term/words are found in it? In your OP, you also asked if the CONCEPT is found in it. I have already shown you a few verses that the concept is definitely found in Scriptures. I can provide more to back up that concept if you want. What kind of a Judge would render a verdict without investigating the facts?

[miz3]

Richard Holbrook,

This is your second Bible Study,

“Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

8 A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’[a] which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.” Revelation 12:6-13.

This entire passage has been called (correctly I might add) the “Three Angels Message”.

Let us look at the “first Angel” because this is where the issue is joined. The first Angel has the “gospel” and it was his job to proclaim that “gospel” to those who live on the earth.

Just what is that “gospel”? Paul always stated that the “gospel” was Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. In the Book of Romans Paul lays the most comprehensive treatise on the “Gospel” ever written. In that Book of Romans Paul states that it is God and God alone who through Jesus Christ’s life and death accomplished the Salvation for humans apart from anything humans could do or actually do. Thus, the “Gospel” is about God and Jesus Christ and what they do, not what humans do!

This is the “gospel” of the First Angel here in Revelation. Because of the “Gospel” the First Angel states that humans are thus commanded to do the following:

1. Fear God and give Him glory.

2. Worship the Creator.

The First Angel tells us why we humans are to Fear God and give Him Glory. That reason is because that God will judge you as to whether you have indeed “Feared Him and given Him Glory”!

I know, I know, it says the “hour” of his judgment has come. Well, exactly what “hour” is that? The First Angel does not give us a specific “hour” or time. The only two possible conclusion we can come to:

1.That each human as they come on to the earth will be judged about what they do during their lifetime.

2.That this passage is not talking about some investigation of the “righteous” near the end of time. The end of time is not even mentioned. An investigation is not mentioned nor is it inferred in any way, shape, or form!

Sorry, once again no “Investigative Judgment” here.

[miz3]

Richard Holbrook,

Third Bible Study:

The text Revelation 22:12 has been given as demonstrating that there is an "Investigative Judgment". Here is the text;

"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Revelation 22:12-13.

It is obvious that this text neither states that such and "investigative judgment" takes place nor is nary an inference of any kind, shape, or form in this text. It merely states the fact that God brings rewards with Him when He comes. It also states that He is coming "soon".

The question of "soon" is for another day.

Suffice it to say, there is no "Investigative Judgment" here.

[wayfinder]

miz3,

You need to get your facts straight before you try to convince Richard. I have tried to convience Richard for almost two years now without success.

You are correct in your understanding that these visions given to Daniel concern the two kingdoms on earth, the kingdom/kingdoms of the world and the kingdom of the heavens/God. The point to these visions is that the kingdom of God is victorious over the kingdom of the world. Daniel chp 9 is the only vision pertaining to "literal Israel" The other prophicies pertain to the kingdom of God that appears at the "appointed time" (see Daniel 2:44 "the stone cut-out without hands")

Here are the details of the prophecy of Daniel 7. You are correct that the fourth beast represents the Roman empire, but that is where your understanding becomes convoluted. The ten horns are ten kings/kingdoms that come from this empire.

Daniel 7:24 'As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise ; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

Notice that the eleventh horn arises after the ten and has eyes and a mouth. This horn subdues three of the ten, not two as you said. These three kingdoms were the Ostogoths, Visigoths, and Heruli. The eleventh horn subdues/uproots these three kingdoms and now there are eight horns. This horn with eyes and a mouth is representitive of the kingdom of universal christianity or also known as the Catholic church, with the papacy as it's ruling authority.

Daniel 7:9,10 ...thrones were set up and the Ancient of Days took His seat... The court sat and the books were opened.

It is my understanding that the "thrones" were occupied by the 24 elders (see Revelation 4 and 5...). The opening of "books" would imply and investigation or note taking, as a court stenographer. The first decision rendered by this court is against the "body" of the fourth beast, not the horns.

Daniel 7:11 "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking ; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.

12 "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.

Only the fourth beast was slain, body distroyed and thrown into the blazing fire(second death). The other beasts were granted an extention of life until an "appointed time", they reapear in the composite beast of Revelation 13.

Verse 13 appears to be describing the same scene as that in Revelation 5, although John sees a Lamb, as if it had been slain. Notice that "One like a Son of Man"... this event could only take place after the Son of God/Son of Man had finishen His work and returned to His Father to receive...kingdom.

Daniel 7:24 'As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise ; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.25 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law ; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

We are told that the next case in the judgment was concerning the horn with eyes and a mouth speaking blasphemies. The dominion of this ruler was taken away but his authority was not. Dominion is the territory over which one rules. The dominion of the papacy was the three kingdoms that were uprooted, these were known as the "states of the church". The Italian Parlament annexed these states in 1869/70. The horn continues to have authority but the states no longer are under it's authority.

There is much more to this study, but I will stop here.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Suffice it to say, there is no "Investigative Judgment" here.

If you are looking only for the words "investigative judgment" in the same manner that you would not accept that humans are "free moral agents" because you couldn't find the exact words in Scripture, then it is totally futile to carry on discussion with you.

[miz3]

Richard Holbrook,

Fourth Bible Study:

This time we analyze the parable to the "Wedding Banquet" as found in Matthew chapter 22.

"Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Matthew 22:1-14

It is clear that the King sent invitations "first" to those who were His chosen people. Amazingly these "chosen" people refused to come to the Banquet. Naturally the King was angry. He was so angry that He decided to invite those who were clearly not in the "saved" or "favored" class. Naturally the King wanted everything to look good and to be good so He outfitted all guests with "wedding clothes".

When the came into the Banquet he noticed a person not wearing the "wedding garment". Notice particularly that the King did not come to "investigate" or to "check out who was and was not dressed". That is not what the passage says. It says He came in to "see" the guests. He assumed that everything was in order and He wanted to properly greet those who came. There was no "investigation" or "checking", the King came in to "see" and "greet" His guests.

The poor person who was not wearing the "wedding garment" stuck out like a "sore thumb"! It was obvious that he had disrespected and REJECTED the King and His plans. No investigation needed. It was OBVIOUS!

Three things pop out here:

1. The Kings "chosen" people, the people of God, REJECTED Him and His invitation. In Christ's day that would have been the Jewish Nation. Those listening to Christ tell the story knew that He was talking about them. Christ was not talking about some "group" down in the history of time. If it were our time these would be the SDA. However the parable is not referring to our time at all.

2. Those that finally came were NOT the "chosen people of God" but were instead the unchosen. In Christ's day that would have been the Gentiles. If were to apply to today, which it is not, that would be those who were not SDA.

3. The man seen to not be wearing the wedding garment then would not have been a Jew or if in our day would not have been and SDA. I thought the "Investigative Judgment" was about God's People? Regardless this parable is not a look down in time to our day but it was for the Jews of their day. The parable does not even "infer" in slightest way that it applies to our day or the SDA Church.

Sorry, no "Investigative Judgment" here either.

[miz3]

Gerry,

There is no inference or concept either in any of the texts that you or Richard Holbrook, or anyone else has given.

You all keep adding things to the Word of God that are neither expressed nor are they implied!

You are being guided by your preconceived notions that have come to you either from Ellen White and her writings and interpretations or notions that have come from the SDA Church.

There is a reason that the 27/28 Beliefs and the Church Manuel do not give Biblical References is because they know that such references will not hold up under scrutiny of even the slightest form.

If you read the texts without any pre-conditions of any kind you cannot squeeze out of them even the slightest hint of an "Investigative Judgment".

[miz3]

Wayfinder,

My facts are straight. Check out yours and those of Mr. Holbrook and if you are HONEST you will see that you and others are distorting the Word of God to suit your purpose because you desperately want the Doctrine of Investigative Judgment to be true. If it is not true you believe that you whole world will cave in and be destroyed. You see no reason for the existence of the SDA Church if your Doctrines of:

1. The Sanctuary is destroyed.

2. The Investigative Judgment is destroyed.

3. That humans are Free Moral Agents is destroyed.

Thus, you fight tooth and nail even in the face of overwhelming evidences to the contrary to preserve "your" precious beliefs. Oh, how much like Israel thou art! They did the same thing in Christs day. Despite their best efforts because they clung to their seemingly "unique" Doctrines they were in fact destroyed anyway. In fact it was their clinging that destroyed them. I believe Jesus called them, "blind guides".

Is the SDA Church doomed to the same fate?

[wayfinder]

First of all, your facts are not straight, and if you want to do an element by element exegesis of any of the apocalyptic prophecies I would be happy to ablige. I do not hold to the escatology of my church (Seventh-day Adventist), I have studied for myself over the last twenty years and have developed an understanding that makes sense.

The Seventh-day Adventist church is the kingdom of heaven on earth today, they are in the world but not of the world. This is borne out by the prophecy given to the disciples, by the Son of God.

Matthew 25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:5 "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.

Notice that this group of virgins/bridesmaids are called the kingdom of heaven. They go out to meet the Bridegroom (1844) but because He is delaying His return, they become drowsy and fall asleep. When the Bridegroom ends the delay, they are still asleep.

Revelation 10:6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer,

[Gerr]

Gerry,

There is no inference or concept either in any of the texts that you or Richard Holbrook, or anyone else has given.

Plenty of evidence if you are willing to see.

Fact #1. ESV | Ps 9:7 But the LORD sits enthroned forever; he has established his throne for justice, 8 and he judges the world with righteousness; he judges the peoples with uprightness.

ESV | 1 Pe 4:5 but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Fact #2. Judgment is according to works.

ESV | Ro 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will render to each one according to his works:

Fact #3. God does not give a verdict without first checking the evidence.

NASB95 | Dt 13:12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to live in, anyone saying that 13 some worthless men have gone out from among you and have seduced the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom you have not known), 14 then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. crite.If it is true and the matter established that this abomination has been done among you,

then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly- NIV

NASB95 | Dt 19:18 “The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and he has his brother falsely,

Fact #4. Those judged are judged by what is in the records.

ESV | Da 7:10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

ESV | Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Fact #5. Judgment is necessary to separate the good from the bad, the righteous from the wicked, the sincere from the hypocrite.

ESV | Mt 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. 49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous

ESV | Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

2b cont'd.

[Gerr]

Cont'd:

20 Then the LORD said to Abraham, “There are terrible accusations against Sodom and Gomorrah, and their sin is very great. 21 I must go down to find out whether or not the accusations which I have heard are true.

American Bible Society. (1992). The Holy Bible : The Good news Translation (2nd ed.) (Ge 18:20–21). New York: American Bible Society.

“As I looked,

thrones were placed,

and the Ancient of Days took his seat;

his clothing was white as snow,

and the hair of his head like pure wool;

his throne was fiery flames;

its wheels were burning fire.

10 A stream of fire issued

and came out from before him;

a thousand thousands served him,

and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;

the court sat in judgment,

and the books were opened.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Da 7:9–10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

And I saw the dead, great and small alike, standing before the throne. Books were opened, and then another book was opened, the book of the living. The dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13Then the sea gave up its dead. Death and the world of the dead also gave up the dead they held. And all were judged according to what they had done

American Bible Society. (1992). The Holy Bible : The Good news Translation (2nd ed.) (Re 20:11–13). New York: American Bible Society.

2b cont'd

[Gerr]

]ESV | Mt 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Questions for you:

1. How will anyone be judged and justified or condemned about what they have said without checking the records?

2. How will He separate the good from the bad, the foolish from the wise, the genuine from the hypocrite, the chaff from the wheat, the sheep from the goats, without investigating the facts?

3. What's the point of having records?

4. What's the point of consulting the records?

[miz3]

wayfinder,

That is one giant leap to state that the parable of the "ten virgins" is something that happened in 1844.

I don't see SDA Church stated as the "virgins". Where also in this parable does it say that the Kingdom of Heaven is the SDA Church?

It seems to me your "element by element exegesis" is lacking a great deal. You assume so much that is NOT IN EVIDENCE!

This is typical of those who wish to defend SDA interpretations of their non Biblical Doctrines especially when they are explaining them to other SDA who have questions.

I believe your "exegetical" skirt is showing.

Where is Richard Holbrrook who doesn't have time to explain the Word of God to anyone he deems to lowly intellectually from himself. After all he sits on his mighty throne and hands down his analysis and others say, "wow, I never thought of that".

Jesus Christ always had time to explain the Kingdom of Heaven and its Righteousness to anyone and everyone!

[Gerr]

Jesus Christ always had time to explain the Kingdom of Heaven and its Righteousness to anyone and everyone!

To everyone willing to listen!

[miz3]

Gerry,

No Gerry, to everyone and anyone even those who would not and did not listen!

[miz3]

Gerry,

Bible Study Number Five:

"The LORD reigns forever;

he has established his throne for judgment.

8 He rules the world in righteousness

and judges the peoples with equity."

Psalm 9:7-8.

You cited this text. Look at the context. It makes a simple statement that God "Judges". It does not in any way, shape, or form refer to what you call the "Investigative Judgment". In fact it seems to be stating that God is in a "constant" state of "Judgment".

Sorry not Investigative Judgment here!

"But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead." 1Peter 4:5.

It just simply states that humans will have to be judged by God for what they have been. It states also that God is "ready" to judge them. No investigation, no pouring over records, etc. God is always "ready"!

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here!

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done." Romans 2:1-6.

I include the surrounding texts in this case so you can get the flavor of the passage you cited. This passage again merely states that God is the Judge and that "a Judgment" will come. It does not say there will more than "one" Judgment or that this reference is an "Investigative Judgment". You need to be more careful in choosing your texts and what they say. No inference either!

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here!

[miz3]

Gerry,

Bible Study Number Six:

"If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things[c] are to be found in your hands. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors— 18 because you obey the LORD your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes." Deuteronomy 13:12-18.

This text is no way, shape, or form talking about God, His Judgment, or God's methods He uses Himself. It is abundantly clear that God is instructing humans in how they(humans) are to determine guilt or innocence! This passage is about humans and the way they are to conduct their business because "UNLIKE AN ALL KNOWING GOD WHO NEEDS NO RECORDS TO DETERMINE GUILT OF INNOCENCE", humans do need records and do need to investigate. Again this text says nothing nor infers anything about an Investigative Judgment.

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here.

"One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse someone of a crime, 17 the two people involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against a fellow Israelite, 19 then do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party. You must purge the evil from among you. 20 The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. 21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." Deuteronomy 19:15-21.

Same analysis as the previous Deuteronomy text (Deuteronomy 13:12-18). This is just repetitive.

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here.

"Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." Genesis 18:20-21.

Are asserting here that the Lord God Almighty was "ignorant" about what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah? If you are, then I believe you are out of step with rest of the Bible. Then why did God pose His question the way He did. After all God does not need an "investigation" to know what is going on!

It is clear from the context that God was goading Abraham into a dialogue with Him about Sodom and Gomorrah. It was not to discuss whether there was guilt or not because Abraham never challenges God on that point. It is obvious that God is revealing Abraham's character in regard to Lot and Lot's family and in regard to any other righteous who might be caught in the fallout of God's destruction. There was no intention of an investigation. In fact as you read the story the Angels went right to Lot's house to "save" them. The Angels and God did "zero" investigation! Judgment had already been made even before God came to Abraham's tent! No inferences at all here either.

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here!

[ClubV12]

Amazing, this whole discussion is so easily resolved by simply consulting what the prophet has to say. But for those who insist on "going it alone" you are left to beat upon the rocks of confusion.

...these beatings will continue until moral improves... :)

[miz3]

Gerry,

Bible Study Number Seven:

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" Matthew 7:21-23.

Read the context of the passage: God has already made the Judgment that these people are lost! When they then try and plead their case God does not argue with them, He simply dismisses them because His verdict has already been made. There is no investigation here either directly or by inference. It is plane and simple. In fact this is a text that proves my point, not your point. Thank you.

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here!

"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

51 “Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked.

“Yes,” they replied.

52 He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.” Matthew 13:47-52.

Notice that the Angels carry out the Judgment that has already been made. God has already decided who is saved and who is lost. It does not say that God needs to investigate first then decide. Again, no inference of investigation just carrying out the judgment that has already been made. Besides you cannot be serious that Jesus purpose in telling this parable was to inform us that there would be an Investigative Judgment? You are stretching a great deal beyond anything credible.

Oh, and don't hand me the line that the fisherman had to inspect the fish or "investigate" the fish. Experienced fisherman don't need to "investigate" they know without some long drawn out process like you are suggesting the Investigative Judgment is. If you believe in an Investigative Judgment you believe it began in 1844. That is 167 years ago. Are you suggesting that God needs that much time to Judge. If we parallel that with the fishermen based on SDA year-day principles then the fisherman would be 167 days in determining the nature of the fish in one catch. This is how convoluted SDA thinking is in defense of this Doctrine. Surely you can see the absurdity of this?

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here!

"But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." Matthew 12:36-37.

It says "day" of Judgment. It does not say a long process of Investigation and back and forth. Again if we take the year-day concept that would be one year and as we have already pointed out it has been 167 years since 1844. No one said that there wouldn't be any Judgment Day. What I am saying is the Bible does not support the Investigative Judgment and a Final Judgment too. See the analysis for Matthew 7 for any further comments. Nothing direct and no inferences either.

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here!