Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[miz3]

Gerry,

Bible Study Number Eight:

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:11-15.

1. The dead are not judged until after the 1000 years. Thus on this fact alone this passage cannot be talking about the Investigative Judgment!

2. This text is reference to the Final Judgment only!

3. There are no allusions or inference even that an Investigative Judgment took place sometime in the past.

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here!

"As I looked,

“thrones were set in place,

and the Ancient of Days took his seat.

His clothing was as white as snow;

the hair of his head was white like wool.

His throne was flaming with fire,

and its wheels were all ablaze.

10 A river of fire was flowing,

coming out from before him.

Thousands upon thousands attended him;

ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.

The court was seated,

and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9-11.

1. This sounds eerily like passages in Revelation that refer to the Final Judgment. It is called "Final" not because other judgments have gone before but because it is last Judgment and from it there is no appeal.

2. I suggest you read my earlier response to Richard Holbrook on the Daniel chapter 7 reference as a Biblical proof of an Investigative Judgment.

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here!

[miz3]

Richard Holbrook,

I am sorry you feel the way you do. However, I do not mind giving Bible Studies to anyone in need. You are in need so I will give you a Bible Study.

Our topic today will be the "interpretation portion" of Daniel chapter 7. This is where the angel tells Daniel the interpretation of what Daniel saw in his vision.

Daniel chapter 7 is a continuation of visions. In this vision Daniel sees the same four(4) beasts that he has seen before in previous chapters of Daniel. These four Kingdoms are indeed Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. It is this fourth beast (Rome) that intrigues Daniel the most. So Daniel inquires about this fourth beast and what it means.

The angel tells Daniel:

“He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.” Daniel 7:23-25.

Rome indeed did devour more of earth’s territory than any of the other of named kingdoms. Rome indeed had 10 Emperors (look at the list of Roman Emperors there actually is more than 10) that ruled with autocratic power. One of these Emperors will take out two other kings. Also under Rome Israel was subdued.

I am not going into any more detail concerning history for this is not a lesson in history. The main fact is that God through this Angel messenger is telling Daniel what is to come for his people (the Children of Israel no one else!).

“But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.” Daniel 7:26-27.

Did you notice the words “the court will sit”? In other words the court will sit and pass judgment on the fourth beast. It is not saying that judgment is made on anything but the fourth beast.

This is like in other Old Testament passages when God passed judgment on Moab, Assyria, Israel (the northern kingdom), etc. This judgment of God is not some pervasive all-consuming judgment on a worldwide basis. It does not say this is a "judgment of the God's people" which you assert is what the "Investigative Judgment" is all about. You are reading into the Bible stuff that is not in evidence.

You are clearly wrong in your applications Richard Holbrook. You are making applications that are not supported by the passages of Daniel chapter 7.

No “Investigative Judgment here!

I give you above Gerry so that you will not have to hunt for what I wrote earlier on Daniel chapter 7.

[ClubV12]

...though one rose from the dead you would not believe, miz3.

You have placed yourself above the prophet as one having "new light". As one now ready to "instruct" God's people and God's church. By what authority do you speak?

[miz3]

Gerry,

Yes, Gerry it is so easy!

If:

1. SDA and you will admit that this Doctrine of Investigative Judgment is based ONLY on Ellen White.

2. That the Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is not based on the Bible.

3. That SDA have be duplicitous in asserting that ALL THEIR DOCTRINES are based on the Bible and the Bible only.

Are you now willing to say that you agree with all three of the above facts?

Or, does pride keep you from admitting the Truth!

[miz3]

Gerry,

My authority comes from the Bible! I do not speak my own words but I speak only the words given me in the Bible as the only Word of God.

Your authority is Ellen White, whom you blaspheme by asserting that her communications are above that of the Word of God. She never claimed to do that and always, I mean always pointed others away from her to the Bible and the Bible only.

You espouse the thoughts and words of humans (and Denomination, SDA) over the Words of Almighty God in the Bible. You attribute things in the Bible that are not there. Thus, you blaspheme the Bible by putting in Words and concepts that are not there.

If you want to assert that the Doctrine of Investigative Judgment comes only from Ellen White because she was shown so by God------GOOD! That is a defensible position.

However, to assert that the Bible also says so is blasphemy because it does not-----BAD! This is not a defensible position.

[Gerr]

You admit that God is Judge and does judge people, He just doesn't bother to with the facts for the benefit of wondering and suspicious people, eh?

You say it's not there, because the words "investigative judgment" are not mentioned verbatim in the Scriptures? Just like you say there is no such thing as a "free moral agent" because those words are not mentioned in Scripture?

Only an arbitrary god would render a verdict without checking the facts for all to see that such a judgment is just.

The idea of an IJ is NOT from EGW; she got it by studying the Scriptures and by revelation.

You can deny it all you want; it's there!

[wayfinder]

Matthew 24 and 25 is not a parable it is a prophecy in which symbols or representations are used, ie beasts, horns, metals. I do not have time or space to write a thesis on the end-time apocalyptic prophecies, so here is an abreviated version.

The prophecy in Daniel 8 and Matthew 25 are linked by the expected event, the appearence and establishment of the kingdom of the heavens. The key event of Daniel 8 is the restoration of temple service on behalf of the kingdom of the heavens.

Daniel 8:14 NAS

He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."

The temple of God operates on behalf of His kingdom, without a kingdom the temple has no purpose. At the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings we are told that the Holy Place (temple) would be restored. This restoration would occur only if there was a kingdom, on who's behalf, it would operate. Matthew 25:1 Jesus told His disciples that the kingdom of heaven would go out to meet the Bridegroom, but the Bridegroom would not come as expected. The end of the 2300 evenings and mornings came in 1844 when a large group of people, because of the prophecy in Daniel 8, went out to meet the Bridegroom and He did not come. That group is where the SDA denomination came from, every element of the prophecies was fulfilled.

[miz3]

wayfinder,

Amazing!

I can see clearly how all the facts link together because you stated it so perfectly and so cogently?????????

Is this how you witness to non SDA on this issue?

They really buy this stuff?

No wonder we are a joke to many!

[ClubV12]

Before 1844 God hid from man's understanding the meaning of 1844. When He was ready to reveal this "old light" with "new understanding". He granted Hiram Edson a vision on the subject.

Hiram received his vision in a cornfield. A few months later Ellen White received a similiar vision on the same subject. Thus making EGW the SECOND, not the first, to receive a "new understanding" of "old light".

In both cases their claim on authority is a vision from God.

Anyone can claim to have authority from the bible, and lot's of people do, it doesn't carry much weight one way or the other.

BUT, the minute you claim to have had a VISION, from God, that is significant. Such a statement demands a decision and testing! It instantly puts you on the hot seat.

miz3, if you have not had a vision and do not believe in the prophets (Ellen White) you have no more authority on this subject than anyone else.

[miz3]

Before 1844 God hid from man's understanding the meaning of 1844. When He was ready to reveal this "old light" with "new understanding". He granted Hiram Edson a vision on the subject.

Hiram received his vision in a cornfield. A few months later Ellen White received a similiar vision on the same subject. Thus making EGW the SECOND, not the first, to receive a "new understanding" of "old light".

In both cases their claim on authority is a vision from God.

Anyone can claim to have authority from the bible, and lot's of people do, it doesn't carry much weight one way or the other.

BUT, the minute you claim to have had a VISION, from God, that is significant. Such a statement demands a decision and testing! It instantly puts you on the hot seat.

miz3, if you have not had a vision and do not believe in the prophets (Ellen White) you have no more authority on this subject than anyone else.

1. How do you know that before 1844 God hid the "new light" with His hand?

2. How do you know Hiram Edson had a "vision" just because he said so? That's solid ground!

3. You appear to be claiming that those who "claim" to have had visions from God actually "Trump" what the Bible teaches? Is this indeed what you are saying? Is this the "official" SDA position or is this ClubV12's position?

[miz3]

ClubV12,

Because of your position on Authority, I can only conclude that the Bible is no longer relevant and that all we have to do is,

READ ELLEN WHITE ONLY!

After all she covers everything the Bible does and more (see Conflict Volumes).

Are you indeed asserting that the Bible is "obsolete"?

[Sonny]

Read this and tell me what you think. I have no axe to grind....

Read me

[ClubV12]

It was Hiram Edson that God spoke through to introduce the Investigative Judgement doctrine to the church. Ellen White was secondary to Hiram in that regard.

In either case, once God revealed it, you can understand it from the bible alone. Well, I shouldn't say "you" can miz3, but many people can. Apparently you, like Desmond Ford, cannot understand it.

Hirams and Ellens authority was the same by which Abraham spoke. The same by which Paul edified the early church. The same authority by which the bible authors wrote as they were inspired to do so. The same authority by which ALL light and ALL scripture is given.

The neat thing about bible truth is that it ALWAYS builds on previous truth. It NEVER supplants or replaces what God has revealed in the past. It ALWAYS upholds that which is true. It never tears down the previous work, but builds it up. There is no conflict with Hiram's or Ellen's testimony in this regard. It builds on a solid biblical foundation and is in harmony with testimony previously given and the bible as a whole.

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

miz3's testimony is NOT in harmony with Hiram's or Ellen's testimony. He wants to tear them down, dismiss their counsel as irrelevant. He is trying supplant their understanding with his "new light". He claims his authority is the bible alone. I also make that claim, as do many others.

It is simply impossible for all three to be correct on this issue. One or more of the three are sincerely,,, mistaken. At some point you will have to choose whom to believe. Will it be: Hiram, Ellen or miz3?

[ClubV12]

Sonny, thats an interesting link you posted. My favorite part of that article was the last line.

"There was a time the investigative judgment put fear into my life. But today I am anxious that my name comes up soon in the judgment."

I feel the same way, come soon Lord Jesus!

[miz3]

ClubV12,

Was Hiram Edson a "Prophet" the same as Ellen White?

Should we look at all that Hiram Edson communicated in order to gather more light?

Does this mean that SDA have TWO PROPHETS?

[Gerr]

Gerry,

Bible Study Number Five:

"The LORD reigns forever;

he has established his throne for judgment.

8 He rules the world in righteousness

and judges the peoples with equity."

Psalm 9:7-8.

You cited this text. Look at the context. It makes a simple statement that God "Judges". It does not in any way, shape, or form refer to what you call the "Investigative Judgment". In fact it seems to be stating that God is in a "constant" state of "Judgment".

Sorry not Investigative Judgment here!

"But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead." 1Peter 4:5.

It just simply states that humans will have to be judged by God for what they have been. It states also that God is "ready" to judge them. No investigation, no pouring over records, etc. God is always "ready"!

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here!

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done." Romans 2:1-6.

I include the surrounding texts in this case so you can get the flavor of the passage you cited. This passage again merely states that God is the Judge and that "a Judgment" will come. It does not say there will more than "one" Judgment or that this reference is an "Investigative Judgment". You need to be more careful in choosing your texts and what they say. No inference either!

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here!

Uh, because the words "investigative judgment" are not found in them?

[Gerr]

Gerry,

Bible Study Number Six:

"If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things[c] are to be found in your hands. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors— 18 because you obey the LORD your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes." Deuteronomy 13:12-18.

This text is no way, shape, or form talking about God, His Judgment, or God's methods He uses Himself. It is abundantly clear that God is instructing humans in how they(humans) are to determine guilt or innocence! This passage is about humans and the way they are to conduct their business because "UNLIKE AN ALL KNOWING GOD WHO NEEDS NO RECORDS TO DETERMINE GUILT OF INNOCENCE", humans do need records and do need to investigate. Again this text says nothing nor infers anything about an Investigative Judgment.

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here.

"One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse someone of a crime, 17 the two people involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against a fellow Israelite, 19 then do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party. You must purge the evil from among you. 20 The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. 21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." Deuteronomy 19:15-21.

Same analysis as the previous Deuteronomy text (Deuteronomy 13:12-18). This is just repetitive.

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here.

"Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." Genesis 18:20-21.

Are asserting here that the Lord God Almighty was "ignorant" about what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah? If you are, then I believe you are out of step with rest of the Bible. Then why did God pose His question the way He did. After all God does not need an "investigation" to know what is going on!

It is clear from the context that God was goading Abraham into a dialogue with Him about Sodom and Gomorrah. It was not to discuss whether there was guilt or not because Abraham never challenges God on that point. It is obvious that God is revealing Abraham's character in regard to Lot and Lot's family and in regard to any other righteous who might be caught in the fallout of God's destruction. There was no intention of an investigation. In fact as you read the story the Angels went right to Lot's house to "save" them. The Angels and God did "zero" investigation! Judgment had already been made even before God came to Abraham's tent! No inferences at all here either.

Sorry no Investigative Judgment here!

Because the words "investigative judgment" are not found in them?

[miz3]

To all,

Your invoking your SDA big heavy hitters, Jack Sequeira, does not make your case more True!

Your fundamental problem is:

1. You start from a false premise. That is you now have to defend SDA's long standing Doctrine or feel you are not relevant.

2. Next you twist the Word of God trying to use it to fit your Doctrine of Investigative Judgment into all these texts that when read without your preconceived ideas say nothing at all either explicitly or implicitly about the Doctrine.

3. Your hatred of all who do not buy your contrived Biblical twisting is very reminiscent of the Jews of Christ's day.

4. You disrespect the Prophet Ellen White.

5. You create a new Prophet in Hiram Edson. Ellen White does not say one word about Hiram Edson being a Prophet on a par with the Biblical Writers. Surely his vision puts Him on a par with Bible Characters such as Stephen the Deacon of Acts. Yet Hiram Edson, himself claims nothing like Stephen, nor is Hiram Edson corroborated in his as of Divine origin by Ellen White.

[Woody]

Pastor Jack Sequeira is one of our church's best scholars. I would not knock him.

[miz3]

Woody,

I know that. It was precisely my point that ClubV12 is invoking him as if because he is such a "BIG" scholar that we all need to give in because he could never be wrong.

Pastor Sequeira is not so high up that he knows everything. He is the same as the rest of us trying to learn from God what is God's Truth. As such he can know nothing apart from the Holy Spirit (1Corinthians 2:6-16)!

I am afraid that Pastor Sequeira is viewing this subject from the wrong assumptions. He is a loyal company man and as such needs to avoid what happens to those who 'cross the brethren'. Our Church history is littered with many such stories.

Some of our critics have indeed deserved the punishing actions of the Church but many have not. It seems if you look cross-eyed and not tow the party line you are gone.

I am glad here at the forum that is not the case. I really mean that because I would not want those who disagree with me to be banished or disciplined merely because they do not accept my views and the same for those who might agree with me.

I do think there are some who on this site who would indeed like to banish me and my views from the Church!

I hope however that I am pressing others to reassess the foundations of their beliefs and to test them not simply accept them as true just because the Church says so or some big time theologian tells them what the Truth is.

Other religious entities have evolved into dead and dried bones by just thinking they all ready have it all locked up. I do not want this to happen to the SDA Church. I am afraid we are headed this way and I am pained by our direction.

[Woody]

The church will survive till the end.

[miz3]

Woody,

Do you mean the SDA Church?

OR

Do you mean God's Spiritual Church which has always existed.

[ClubV12]

Sonny posted that link to Jack Sequeira. It was an interesting read, I like the guys style.

Just to be clear:

When I say God's church I mean to say specifically the Seventh Day Adventist church, which will endure unto the end.

I was not raised an Adventist. I haven't been an Adventist very long in fact. But being retired I am able to spend many hours a day or even all day studying, reading, cross checking and building a solid foundation for my new found faith. I never heard of this Jack Sequeira guy until this thread.

But I know a lot about our founders, my key interest is in the early history of the church, warts and all. My "heavy hitters" are folks like Hiram, Uriah, James White, A. G. Daniels, even A.T. Jones and Dr. Kellog. Where they went right, or wrong. What the disputes were, how the foundation was built, what the foundation is.

miz3, you have a loosing argument, based on history. It's the same old tired rhetoric the church has heard before. Dressed up, like lip stick on a pig, but it remains the same. There is nothing new here...

[miz3]

I read it.

[Sonny]

The Parable of the Wedding Banquet

Matt 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. 4 "Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' 5 "But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. 13 "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."