Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[miz3]

“Christ might commission the angels of

heaven to pour out the vials of His wrath on

our world, to destroy those who are filled with

hatred of God. He might wipe this dark spot

from His universe. But He does not do this.

He is today standing at the altar of

incense, presenting before God the prayers

of those who desire His help. {DA 568.4}

This was written I believe around 1898 some 54 years after 1844 when according to Ellen White and the SDA Church Jesus Christ had already entered the "MOST HOLY PLACE".

As the Desire Ages quote above states Jesus Christ was still in the "Holy Place" ministering.

HOW CAN THIS BE?

[Sonny]

I believe the evidence shows that Pastor Jack Sequiera is wrong on a number of key issues.

[miz3]

To all,

No one wants to answer my question from post #437263.

Also, we looked at what Daniel chapter 7 said about the Judgment. Yet everyone states that the text does not mean what it actually says but instead it means what we want to "imply" "conceptually" what it means. We don't care what the actual words say because we want to read it as are sure what the author, in this Daniel, meant by inference and "thought" meant to say.

By such a "thought" or "inference" interpretations we make almost any text say anything we want it to say depending on what we want the Doctrine to be.

I am amazed that SDA Church takes such a position on "Inspiration".

Of course this is not new to SDA. Early in SDA history the "brethren (for those who don't know what this means it is a reference to the movers and shakers within the SDA Church) began to us this "thought inspiration" and "inference concept" to play hanky-panky with the Spirit of Prophecy. It continues from then on to this day when you and I exist. This why the SDA church does not prosper as it should. Maybe this is the reason that Ellen White stated that the SDA Church should have been in the Kingdom "ere this".

Hopefully, someone will step up and honestly answer the question from the post delineated above.

[ClubV12]

"By such a "thought" or "inference" interpretations we make almost any text say anything we want it to say depending on what we want the Doctrine to be."

Thats an interesting point, for me, it illustrates the importance of EGW insights as to the meaning of various texts, thoughts and doctrinal points. But like the bible, it is at times difficult to come to an exact conclusion on her position, due to interpretation issues. Comparing text to text, principles, verse to verse, the picture becomes more clear. A true heart seeking guidance in understanding the written word is whats really needed, but it is not enough by itself. Why? Because God has ordained certain methods by which we grow and learn, to ignore them, is to ignore Him and how He works.

The Holy Spirit, the bible, the writings of Ellen White, the counsel of brethren, the leadership of the General Conference, we need them all. When properly understood, there will be harmony. Leave one out and your at risk of "strong delusion" being the end result.

[miz3]

ClubV12,

I have only one answer:

1Corinthians 2:6-12.

Match that with what you said?

[ClubV12]

miz3, you still miss my primary point in all this.

HOW does the Holy Spirit accomplish the work?

Apparently you believe you have a special connection, a direct channel, that supercedes all other possible avenues of enlightment. Of all the possible channels of "light" you reject, by far the most troubling is, the counsel of the prophet herself.

Rejecting Ellen Whites view point on this issue isn't just a "red flag", a "warning", it is decisive proof that your counsel cannot be from God. It is the coup de gras of the whole matter at hand. Sometimes error is more skillfully clothed, carefully hidden, making it tough to ferret out the truth from the error. Not so here, by applying the principles upon which "new light" must come, your counsel utterly fails the most basic of tests.

[miz3]

ClubV12,

How does the Holy Spirit accomplish what is stated in

1Corinthians 2:6-12.

The answer to that is found in:

Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

John 3:5-8.

So ClubV12 you just wouldn't understand unless you meet both tests as stated in these two passages.

You don't need all that other stuff you named. Such lists come from organizations who claim to have Authority when they don't.

[Sonny]

Rejecting Ellen Whites view point on this issue isn't just a "red flag", a "warning", it is decisive proof that your counsel cannot be from God.

[miz3]

To all,

Hebrews chapter 10 states that Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place long before 1844. Is or is this not true? After all it specifically states that Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place before us. It does not matter who espouses something. What matters is, is it true? The words of the text are unmistakable. It does not matter what the SDA Church claims, the Jews claimed many things that were wrong and they thought that because they were God's "chosen people" that God had to smile on them regardless what they believed or did. Is the SDA Church claiming the same "exemption"? Either Hebrews chapter 10 is (the word Most Holy Place is there) correct, or it is wrong, or is it "Trumped" by something else? Which is it?

Calling me "Des Ford" a name that means "shame" does not change the Truth of the TEXT or the pointedness of the questions!

Besides I thought the SDA Church's FOUNDATION was Jesus Christ NOT THE SANCTUARY DOCTRINE OR THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT! Was I wrong?

Second, does it take 167 years to cleanse the Temple?

Third, I can see the Day of Atonement to Cleanse the Earthly Temple. Are you saying that SIN resides in the Heavenly Temple thus polluting Heaven itself and Jesus Christ is cleaning this mess up?

Fourth, concerning your answer to my inquiry on Ellen White's 1898 statement that Jesus is in the Holy Place, does Jesus Christ shuttle back and forth between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place in order to do His work as both "intersessor" and "Cleanser of the Sanctuary" and "Investigator" during this 167 year investigation?

Fifth, has Jesus Christ been confined to the Heavenly Sanctuary since his ascension?

Thanks for answering my questions.

[ClubV12]

Sonny, do you also reject what Ellen White has to say on this subject in favor of the "new light" miz3 offers on the matter?

[miz3]

ClubV12,

I am not claiming "new light".

Just answer the questions I posted this morning.

[ClubV12]

It is not information and instruction that is consistent and builds on that which has previously been revealed by the Lords messenger. Therefore, it fails the test and must be considered "darkness".

If they speak not according to the law and the TESTIMONY it is because there is no light in them.

You can call it new, old or modern, that doesn't change what your saying.

[miz3]

ClubV12,

Just answer the questions.

[skyblue888]

aren't Sonny and miz3 the same user?

[skyblue888]

To all,

Hebrews chapter 10 states that Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place long before 1844. Is or is this not true? After all it specifically states that Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place before us. It does not matter who espouses something. What matters is, is it true? The words of the text are unmistakable. It does not matter what the SDA Church claims, the Jews claimed many things that were wrong and they thought that because they were God's "chosen people" that God had to smile on them regardless what they believed or did. Is the SDA Church claiming the same "exemption"? Either Hebrews chapter 10 is (the word Most Holy Place is there) correct, or it is wrong, or is it "Trumped" by something else? Which is it?

Calling me "Des Ford" a name that means "shame" does not change the Truth of the TEXT or the pointedness of the questions!

Besides I thought the SDA Church's FOUNDATION was Jesus Christ NOT THE SANCTUARY DOCTRINE OR THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT! Was I wrong?

Second, does it take 167 years to cleanse the Temple?

Third, I can see the Day of Atonement to Cleanse the Earthly Temple. Are you saying that SIN resides in the Heavenly Temple thus polluting Heaven itself and Jesus Christ is cleaning this mess up?

Fourth, concerning your answer to my inquiry on Ellen White's 1898 statement that Jesus is in the Holy Place, does Jesus Christ shuttle back and forth between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place in order to do His work as both "intersessor" and "Cleanser of the Sanctuary" and "Investigator" during this 167 year investigation?

Fifth, has Jesus Christ been confined to the Heavenly Sanctuary since his ascension?

Thanks for answering my questions.

Jesus, at His ascension, entered the holy place of the sanctuary in Heaven. He ascended up on High to begin the work of atonement for our transgressions, pleading the merits of His shed blood before the Father in behalf of sinners but especially for those who desire His help. He did not enter the Holiest of all until His work in the holy place was finished. It could have been finished shortly after but the mystery of iniquity was already at work in the Early Church and this mystery of iniquity led to thirteen centuries of spiritual darkness until the rise of the Advent Movement. Again because of unbelief on the part of the advent people (G.C.457,458) that work had to be delayed.

In the type, the High Priest entered the most holy place, not at the beginning but at the end of the year to cleanse the sanctuary.

"For there was a tabernacle made; the first, in which was the lampstand, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle, which is called the Holiest of all." Heb.9:2,3.

"But into the the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people." Heb.9:7.

"Which was a figure for the time then present..."

"But Christ being come an High Priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building, neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Heb.9:9,11,12.

So He entered the holy place of the sanctuary in Heaven at His ascension to begin the work of atonement.

"It was, therefore, necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Heb.9:23.

This last verse shows beyond any shadow of doubt that the heavenly sanctuary needs cleansing and this is what the prophet Daniel had in mind when he wrote: "Unto two thousand and three hundred days and then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14.

This brings us to Oct.22, 1844 when the work of investigative judgment began and would have been followed by the cleansing of the sanctuary in Heaven if the people of God had labored unitedly in 1844 and had received the third angel's message and proclaimed it in the power of the Holy Spirit and the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts. A flood of light would be been shed upon the world and years ago the inhabitants of the earth would have been warned, the closing work completed, and Christ would have come for the redemption of His people. See G.C.457,458.

sky

[miz3]

To Sky and everyone,

Quote:

"Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,"

Hebrews 10:19-21.

This passage clearly states that back when Hebrews was written that Jesus opened for us a new way to God (the Father) by going into the Most Holy Place ahead of us because the Father is in the Most Holy Place.

This passage was written long before 1844.

So my brothers and sisters, what's up?

[Sonny]

No....

[miz3]

OK, lets see if I got this right?

1. Jesus Christ has gone into the Most Holy Place before 1844 for reasons other than the Investigative Judgment.

2. Jesus Christ went into the Most Holy Place in 1844 for the sole purpose of inaugurating the Investigative Judgment.

3. The Investigative Judgment was put on hold because the people who were supposed be God's People were not ready.

4. The people who were supposed to be God's People are at present still not ready.

5. We don't know when the people who are supposed to be God's people will be ready.

Do I have it correct now?

[John317]

Quote:

"Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,"

Hebrews 10:19-21.

This passage clearly states that back when Hebrews was written that Jesus opened for us a new way to God (the Father) by going into the Most Holy Place ahead of us because the Father is in the Most Holy Place.

This passage was written long before 1844.

So my brothers and sisters, what's up?

Here's what's up:

As I wrote on another post in a different discussion just a few minutes ago, the heavenly sanctuary was inaugurated, or consecrated, shortly after Christ ascended to heaven. Jesus would have entered the Most Holy Place at that time. Jesus was then anointed as our Great High Priest and as King.

So wherever the Father was at the time of the ascension, that is where Christ went. The issue here, then, is not whether Christ was ever inside the Most Holy Place, but rather the purpose of His being there. The antitypical Day of Atonement did not begin until Oct. 22, 1844, at which time Christ entered into the Most Holy Place for the purpose of beginning the final disposition of sin. It is a work of judgment that leads up the second coming of Christ.

"Most Holy Place" is an incorrect translation of Heb. 10: 19-21.

The Greek word is "ton hagion," which is best translated as "sanctuary." It may also be translated as "holies," or "the holy places," another name for the sanctuary as a whole. "Ton hagion" is always translated as "the sanctuary" in the LXX, never as "the Most Holy Place."

The Greek for "the Most Holy Place" is found in Hebrews 9: 8, and is written hagia hagion.

As for Heb. 10: 19-21, the ESV and RSV give it correctly:

ESV---Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, [20] by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, [21] and since we have a great priest over the house of God,

RSV--"Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."

[John317]

You asked these very same questions on the discussion, Did Willie White Influence His Mother?" Please go to that discusion board to find the answers.

[John317]

Besides I thought the SDA Church's FOUNDATION was Jesus Christ NOT THE SANCTUARY DOCTRINE OR THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT! Was I wrong?

No, you are right. Since Christ is our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, and since all that is done in the heavenly sanctuary is Christ, there is no contradiction in saying that the Church's FOUNDATION is both Christ and the Sanctuary.

[John317]

If interested, see Beyond Belief Reviewed by Kevin Paulson. Jack Sequeira's book, Beyond Belief, examined in the light of the Bible and Spirit of prophecy.

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Many years ago I read Kevin's review.

Has it been so many years ago, you hardly remember what it says?

I still have it. I would be willing to leave it up to readers to decide if Kevin has it right. But in any case people need to know both sides of the issues.

[Sonny]

Sonny, do you also reject what Ellen White has to say on this subject in favor of the "new light" miz3 offers on the matter?

Here's what I have on Ellen White concerning new light:

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

“A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, ‘We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God.’ But we are not safe when we take a position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God's word for truth. ‘Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.’ Some have asked me if I thought there was any more light for the people of God. Our minds have become so narrow that we do not seem to understand that the Lord has a mighty work to do for us. Increasing light is to shine upon us; for ‘the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.’ --Review and Herald, June 18, 1889. CW 34, 35

[miz3]

Thank you Sonny!

RIGHT ON! RIGHT ON!

SDA so often quote Ellen White to support their view and leave off other quotes that don't support their view.

Part of that problem is because the "brethren" have tampered with Ellen White's stuff in order to support their views and their ambitions.

Such a thing makes it hard to "trust" what you are reading.

[miz3]

"Most Holy Place" is an incorrect translation of Heb. 10: 19-21.

The Greek word is "ton hagion," which is best translated as "sanctuary." It may also be translated as "holies," or "the holy places," another name for the sanctuary as a whole. "Ton hagion" is always translated as "the sanctuary" in the LXX, never as "the Most Holy Place."

The Greek for "the Most Holy Place" is found in Hebrews 9: 8, and is written hagia hagion.

To John317 and others,

Below is some interesting facts about the use of the Greek in Hebrews chapter 10.

Commentaries on Hebrews 10:19-20

SDA Commentary uses “ta Hagia” and translates the passage as “Holiest” and says that this refers to the “Most Holy Place”.

Strongs states that “hagia” can be translated as both “Holy Place” and “Most Holy Place”.

Matthew Henry translates the passage as the “Most Holy Place”

Wesley’s Notes on the passage says “Holy of Holies” or “Most Holy Place”.

Geneva says the Greek term may be both “Holy Place” or “Most Place”.

John Gill says this passage is the “Most Holy Place”.

James Faucett Brown says “Holiest Place”.

Johnson says “Most Holy Place”.

My friend did you not notice the SDA Church's own Bible Commentary states the it is the "Most Holy Place". That means that it is the "official" SDA position!

In addition the clear context of Hebrews chapter 10 is that we are talking about the "Most Holy Place".

Most Greek Scholars don't agree with "your" assessment of the Greek in regards to Hebrews chapter 10!