Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[Sonny]

To throw out her writings in favor of the bible and the bible alone would be a huge mistake, in my opinion.

"God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms....Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support." GC 595

"Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light [the Bible]."

[ClubV12]

Is it not obvious how much light EGW has shed on the bible to increase our understanding of it?

The very reason we have so many different religious faiths is because they lack a clear understanding of the bible, they lack a prophet to bring clairity to the issues. To deny EGW does such is to deny her roll as a messenger from God for our time. You cannot separate the two, EGW and the bible for our time. There is no doubt we stand on the bible and the bible alone, but you WILL come to a confused understanding of the bible, just like every other denomination out there, without the prophet or a prophet.

[Guest]

Is it not obvious how much light EGW has shed on the bible to increase our understanding of it?

The very reason we have so many different religious faiths is because they lack a clear understanding of the bible, they lack a prophet to bring clairity to the issues. To deny EGW does such is to deny her roll as a messenger from God for our time. You cannot separate the two, EGW and the bible for our time. There is no doubt we stand on the bible and the bible alone, but you WILL come to a confused understanding of the bible, just like every other denomination out there, without the prophet or a prophet.

You are absolutely right CV.

[miz3]

ClubV12 and Richard Holbrook,

The Bible needs no human interpreter like Ellen White. The Bible itself states that the Holy Spirit will interpret the Truth itself and that this is the only way to know the Truth!!!!!

"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:

'What no eye has seen,

what no ear has heard,

and what no human mind has conceived'—

the things God has prepared for those who love him—

these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for,

'Who has known the mind of the Lord

so as to instruct him?'

But we have the mind of Christ." 1Corinthians 2:6-16.

This is the ONLY WAY for humans to know the Truth. If we have the "mind of Christ" we need no interpreter!!!!!! In addition Ellen White never said that she was sent to "interpret" the Bible. (now I will get a whole slew of Ellen White quotes about this).

Can we know the Truth from Ellen White without the Holy Spirit?

Can we? Why the middle person if in both cases we need the Holy Spirit to know anything?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sonny]

There is no doubt we stand on the bible and the bible alone, but you WILL come to a confused understanding of the bible, just like every other denomination out there, without the prophet or a prophet.

This is total non-sense.

Here's two of my favorite Ellen White statements:

[Ellen is asking the following] Do not think that, because we [the church and Ellen White] have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all? [Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3]

The question has been asked me [Ellen White], "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We [Ellen White and the church] have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

[miz3]

ClubV12,

I am afraid I have to agree with Sonny on this one.

[ClubV12]

Sonny, so the Jehovan Witness' got it right? The Mormon's are correct? The Baptist's have it all figured out? What other denomination has clairity on the bible principles?

Is it being suggested that that Holy Spirit will enlighten us personally without using any other person so that we come to a correct biblical interpretation of all things without the need of ANY other human? How presumptious that is!

The Holy Spirit works with mankind to help us understand. That could be the janitor in your church or a prophet. But He will send someone when the need arises for further specific instruction. EGW was one such person, given to us by the Holy Spirit for our edification.

[ClubV12]

How does the Holy Spirit instruct us? If we can receive the knowledge by Him alone, to us personally, why do we need a prophet or an instructor at all?

Why did God need to send Phillip to the Unich to edify him? Why did God need to send EGW to edify us?

Because He works through and with "people", often through his prophets, for our edificiation. Without which, we are left to beat upon the rocks of misunderstanding what we read in the bible because our minds are to dull to grasp it.

[miz3]

ClubV12,

Your saying that the Holy Spirit will help us understand through Ellen White but will not help us understand through the Bible?

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or are you saying that the Holy Spirit sends us people and then the Holy Spirit sits back and does nothing after that?

Again, Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Guest]

I don't see where he said any of those things miz3. You are putting words in his mouth that he did not use.

[miz3]

clubV12 and Richard Holbrook,

Did Mary the sister of Martha when she sat at the feet of Jesus need an interpreter (ie. prophet) to interpret and put into plain language what Jesus was saying to her? How about Jesus disciples did they need a prophet to help them understand what Jesus was saying either while He was with them or after Christ went to heaven?

Was Scripture too hard for their dull uneducated brains to understand that they needed a "prophet" interpreter to make it plain to them?

How absurd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is this what you are saying? If not then make it plain in language that all can understand.

[Sonny]

Sonny, so the Jehovan Witness' got it right? The Mormon's are correct? The Baptist's have it all figured out? What other denomination has clairity on the bible principles?

[Sonny]

To all,

Look, there are many wonderful EGW statements & there are confusing, legalistic statements also. I know the same can be said of the Bible, but the Bible is where we are to make our take beliefs from.

[miz3]

To all,

When Peter replied to Jesus question Peter did not consult a "prophet" or go to some other source to give his answer.

He spoke right up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus then said that Peter's answer was given to Peter by God the Father!!!!!!!

No intermediaries, no priests, no pope, no prophets, no Phd. consultants, no Bible scholars, etc.

Peter got is answer direct from God. So it may be with us.

God is His own interpreter!!!!!!! God and God alone will give us the Holy Spirit so that we can understand His Word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does God use other humans as He did with Philip and the Ethiopian? Sure. Even then the Holy Spirit must give the listener the ability to understand what the other human is saying. However, it is not necessary for that Ethiopian to have Philip in his chariot 24/7 like SDA do with Ellen White. In the Life of Jesus Christ the people who interacted with Him did not have any such interpreter or explainer of what Jesus Christ meant when He spoke. If people did not understand they asked Jesus Christ, Himself, to explain what He meant. There were no in between entities to explain or translate what Jesus meant. All they had to give them understanding was God the Father, Jesus Christ, Himself, and the Holy Spirit!!!!!!!!!

That is all we need today!!!!!!!!! The Bible says so. 1Corinthians 2:6-16!!!!!

In putting Ellen White in this role is to misuse the messenger of God in her person. She was constantly referring everyone to "study the Bible". She wanted her writings and her words to move people away from her to the Bible and the Bible only!!!!!

Yet the SDA Church is still stuck on her. This is the reason we are so pitiful in our understanding of what the Bible is stating. We use Ellen White as a crutch because we are too lazy to study God's Word ourselves. We want to be spoon fed!!!!!

This is why in general we have so many wild assertions about the Bible in our own ranks. God is trying to goad us into studying His Word so that we can give such ones a "thus saith the Lord"!!!! Instead we are so ignorant of the Bible that we cannot even give the simplest of responses from it. We have to rely on reams and reams of Ellen White quotes in the hope of bludgeoning our questioner to death. Then without so much as batting an eye we with a straight face state that we are a Bible and Bible only Church.

Amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is what we do when confronted with the question on the "Investigative Judgment" or "pre-Advent Judgment" or whatever label you want to make it. We are filled with so much Denominational Pride that we cannot see straight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ClubV12]

"Was Scripture too hard for their dull uneducated brains to understand that they needed a "prophet" interpreter to make it plain to them?"

Why yes, as a matter of fact it was! Jesus did not tell his disciples and apostles everything. It was not until after His death that it slowly began to dawn on them just who He was. It was through additional revelations, visions, prophets that further truth came to His church. Slowly and through time. The journey continues today. Truth is revealed that is applicable for the time and the circumstances and the ability of His church to understand it.

William Miller was a Godly man, who sincerely prayed and studied like few before him. But alas, he did not understand what it all meant. That took visions and further revelation from God through other people. We can certainly expect more and new light to be revealed in these last times. But we will not understand it and we will reject it if we have refused the light that has already been given.

God will send a strong delusion to those who refuse the plain "old light" so that they will sincerely believe what they think they know as "new light". For those who have rejected Abraham, the prophets and Ellen White they will not believe though one was raised from the dead. Their eyes will be blind to any "new truth" who have rejected the plain testimony of the Lord's previous messengers.

[teresaq]

#436697

They looked like questions to me, Richard. Did you notice the "question marks" at the end?

miz3 is giving his impression of ClubV12's statements.

What isn't being stated here, is that Ellen White's statements are all either based on some biblical concept or are a direct quote. I believe it would do us all good as we study both to be looking for the concept in the bible so that we can present that.

Otherwise I have to admit that I rely heavily on Ellen White and I am not ashamed of that. Yet even she can be misunderstood on the one hand, or we can gravitate to only certain parts of her writings, on the other, completely missing out on a well-balanced understanding.

[ClubV12]

The questions in question:

Your saying that the Holy Spirit will help us understand through Ellen White but will not help us understand through the Bible?

Or are you saying that the Holy Spirit sends us people and then the Holy Spirit sits back and does nothing after that?

I neither said nor implied anything that would lead to these two questions by any reasonable person, religious or secular. I find such an interpretation, and the questions themself, rather bizzare in fact...

[miz3]

"Why yes, as a matter of fact it was! Jesus did not tell his disciples and apostles everything. It was not until after His death that it slowly began to dawn on them just who He was. It was through additional revelations, visions, prophets that further truth came to His church. Slowly and through time. The journey continues today. Truth is revealed that is applicable for the time and the circumstances and the ability of His church to understand it."

You seem to be saying that the Disciples needed a "Prophet". What "Prophet" came to the Disciples and instructed them?

I believe Jesus Christ said something different as to the method by which the Disciples would learn the Truth AFTER JESUS CHRIST WENT TO HEAVEN.

"Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit."

Mark 13:11.

Oh! The Holy Spirit would give them what they needed. No Prophet, no intermediary of any kind. Just the Holy Spirit direct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Messiah." Luke 2:26.

Again, no intermediary like a Prophet needed to decipher the Truth.

"When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say." Luke 12:11-12.

Again only the Holy Spirit to interpret, no other intermediaries.

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." John 14:26.

Oh!!! Is that the Holy Spirit again as the only Teacher who will teach them ALL THINGS! Again, no need for an intermediary or a Prophet. Wow! What a devastating text to your theory!!!!

“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me." John 15:26.

Again, only the Holy Spirit as the Interpreter of God and His words. Not the Holy Spirit in some Prophet or extra interpreter then from there to the Disciples.

“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me." John 20:22.

HOLY SPIRIT----------------DISCIPLES :::: CORRECT LINE

HOLY SPIRIT----------------PROPHET-----DISCIPLES ::: INCORRECT LINE

Can you name the Prophets that instructed the Disciples along with Scripture?

[miz3]

"What isn't being stated here, is that Ellen White's statements are all either based on some biblical concept or are a direct quote. I believe it would do us all good as we study both to be looking for the concept in the bible so that we can present that.

Otherwise I have to admit that I rely heavily on Ellen White and I am not ashamed of that. Yet even she can be misunderstood on the one hand, or we can gravitate to only certain parts of her writings, on the other, completely missing out on a well-balanced understanding."

I like your approach!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is nothing wrong with relying on Ellen White. What is WRONG is to rely on Ellen White and then say I am a Bible and Bible only person or Church!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is the genesis of my question from the beginning on the "Investigative Judgment" or if you prefer, "pre-Advent Judgment".

I just want the SDA Church to "honest" about itself and where we get our Beliefs.

[ClubV12]

What are the various methods employed by the Holy Spirit to edify the church or an individual?

It was revealed to Paul not by prayer and a deep study of the bible. But by a miraculous event. It was revealed to the new christian church by an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It was revealed to the Unich by a human worker of God. Thus it has always been. New light revelation does not come to "one man" earnestly seeking and praying for it, unless that man or woman is a chosen vessel. It comes through divine revelation, through a messenger of God who brings understanding to the bible. If we could "go it alone" and rely strictly on the Holy Spirit revealing all things to us directly then the Corinth's would not have needed Paul. Nor the Israelites a sanctuary. Nor the Adventist church Ellen White.

Your suggestion that Ellen White didn't have "all the light" is reasonable. So, I'm wondering how you will find this "new light" you seem to be seeking? Through the Holy Spirit of course. And how will the Spirit speak to you concerning the details of this "new light"? Through you and you alone, directly to your mind? Through some man or woman with a miraculous revelation sent to you as Phillip was to the Unich? Through some group other than the organized SDA church, some "new" church? Through a vision or dream? Or, simply through a close study of the bible and the bible alone this "new light" will be revealed? No prophets or messengers required?

The most important question of all is:

Do you reject the Investigative Judgement doctrine, as new light delivered to God's people through His prophet Ellen White? The doctrine is either from the devil or it's from the Lord. So, which is it, my friend, in your opinion?

[miz3]

If you admit that the "Investigative Judgment" is:

1. Not in the Bible.

2. This Doctrine is only found in Ellen White.

3. That SDA have gotten this Doctrine from only Ellen White and thus are not being honest when the say they get all their Doctrines from the Bible and the Bible only.

4. That SDA need to be clear and honest as to what the role of Ellen White is, not only in the formation of the SDA Church, but her continuing role in the SDA Church today.

Then and only then will I answer your questions.

Besides you have yet to name the Prophets that instructed the Disciples. Where are they?

I have already demonstrated from the Bible that the Disciples received the Truth from the Holy Spirit. See post #436825 in this topic.

[ClubV12]

"I have already demonstrated from the Bible that the Disciples received the Truth from the Holy Spirit."

The Holy Spirit spoke directly to the disciples, to Paul, to Ellen White. Does he speak thus to you as well?

You are going down the same path Desmond Ford did, whether you realize it or not, you are. I don't know how you got to this place, but it is a very dangerous place to be. I would urge you to review the matter with yourself and before God before you have gone to far to turn back. The position Dr. Ford found himself in, in to deep to return, despite the warnings and admonitions.

[wayfinder]

Please show you proof that the Holy Spirit spoke to Paul and and Ellen White, and remember.

Matthew 12:31 NAS

"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

To blaspheme the Spirit is to say She spoke to someone that She did not speak to and taught someone something that was a lie.

[John317]

"Bradley Williams' The Silencing of Satan the Gospel of the Investigative Judgment, and The Case For the Investigative Judgment by Marvin Moore."

NEITHER author could have reached these conclusions using the bible alone, period, impossible, can't be done, hasn't been done!!

Why?

I would ask you-- and anyone else who's interested in the topic-- to get the books and study them before you make up your mind.

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Because the Investigative Judgement was revealed to man by DIRECT intervention of God through vision's and a prophet FOLLOWING 1844. Before that date, and without the visions, this fundamental belief would not have been revealed in our time.

But that would go directly contrary to what Ellen White herself declared, which is that we must establish every doctrine by the Bible itself. A study of the history of the development of SDA doctrines will show that while God certainly confirmed the truth of doctrines thorough the visions, the doctrines themselves were found in the Bible. Her prophetic gift was not given to her in order to take the place of the Bible.

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Remove EGW, her history, any knowledge that may have been acquired through reading her writings and the "hub" of SDA beliefs disappears.

The hub of SDA beliefs, including the heavenly sanctuary and the Investigative Judgment, can be found in the Bible. Bible Rreadings For the Home and many other books have demonstrated this.

[John317]

If you admit that the "Investigative Judgment" is:

1. Not in the Bible.

2. This Doctrine is only found in Ellen White.

3. That SDA have gotten this Doctrine from only Ellen White and thus are not being honest when the say they get all their Doctrines from the Bible and the Bible only.

Are you a member of the SDA church?

Do you believe Ellen White was a true or a false prophet?

The Investigative Judgment is certainly found in the Bible. But whether you choose to accept the doctrine or not is a totally different matter.

I've already given you the name of at least two books recently published which show the evidence for the Investigative Judgment from the Bible, without reference to Ellen White.

I would add a few more:

1844 Made Simple

Graffiti in the Sanctuary. Both by Clifford Goldstein.

The Daniel and Revelation Committee Series by the Biblical Research Institute, edited by Frank B. Holbrook

Roy Gane's book, Alter Call