Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[John317]

(quoting Ellen White): The question has been asked me [Ellen White], "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We [Ellen White and the church] have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

What Ellen White wrote in those sentences is of course true, but it would be wrong to take away from it the idea that Ellen White's writings will be contradicted by future revelations from God. God does not contrdict Himself. God's prophets don't contradict one another, either. We need to take everything that she wrote, not only a few lines here and there.

For instance, she also wrote:

Quote:

I saw the state of some who stood on present truth, but disregarded the visions--the way God had chosen to teach in some cases, those who erred from Bible truth. I saw that in striking against the visions they did not strike against the worm--the feeble instrument that God spake through--but against the Holy Ghost. I saw it was a small thing to speak against the instrument, but it was dangerous to slight the words of God. I saw if they were in error and God chose to show them their errors through visions, and they disregarded the teachings of God through visions, they would be left to take their own way, and run in the way of error, and think they were right, until they would find it out too late. "--Broadside, To Those Who Are Receiving the Seal of the Living God, Jan. 31, 1849. 41

{1SM 40.1}

Safe Instruction for Closing Days

A wealth of moral influence has been brought to us in the last half century. Through His Holy Spirit the voice of God has come to us continually in warning and instruction, to confirm the faith of the believers in the Spirit of prophecy. Repeatedly the word has come, Write the things that I have given you to confirm the faith of My people in the position they have taken. Time and trial have not made void the instruction given, but through years of suffering and self-sacrifice have established the truth of the testimony given. The instruction that was given in the early days of the message is to be held as safe instruction to follow in these its closing days. Those who are indifferent to this light and instruction must not expect to escape the snares which we have been plainly told will cause the rejecters of light to stumble, and fall, and be snared, and be taken. If we study carefully the second chapter of Hebrews, we shall learn how important it is that we hold steadfastly to every principle of truth that has been given.--The Review and Herald, July 18, 1907. {1SM 41.1}

Varying Attitudes Enumerated

Soon every possible effort will be made to discount and pervert the truth of the testimonies of God's Spirit. We must have in readiness the clear, straight messages that since 1846 have been coming to God's people. {1SM 41.2}

There will be those once united with us in the faith who will search for new, strange doctrines, for something odd and sensational to present to the people. They will bring in all conceivable fallacies, and will present them as coming from Mrs. White, that they may beguile souls.... {1SM 41.3}

Those who have treated the light that the Lord has given as a common thing will not be benefited by the instruction presented. {1SM 41.4}

There are those who will misinterpret the messages that God has given, in accordance with their spiritual blindness. {1SM 41.5}

Some will yield their faith, and will deny the truth of the messages, pointing to them as falsehoods.

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{1SM 41.6}

Some will hold them up to ridicule, working against the light that God has been giving for years, and some who are weak in the faith will thus be led astray. {1SM 42.1}

But others will be greatly helped by the messages. Though not personally addressed, they will be corrected, and will be led to shun the evils specified.... The Spirit of the Lord will be in the instruction, and doubts existing in many minds will be swept away. The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as scripture is explained by scripture. Many will read with eagerness the messages reproving wrong, that they may learn what they may do to be saved. . . . Light will dawn upon the understanding, and the Spirit will make an impression on minds, as Bible truth is clearly and simply presented in the messages that since 1846 God has been sending His people. These messages are to find their place in hearts, and transformations will take place.-- Letter 73, 1903. {1SM 42.2}

"Many excused their disregard of the testimonies by saying, 'Sister White is influenced by her husband; the testimonies are molded by his spirit and judgment.' Others were seeking to gain something from me which they could construe to justify their course or to give them influence.

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It was then I decided that nothing more should go from my pen until the converting power of God was seen in the church. But the Lord placed the burden upon my soul. I labored for you earnestly. How much this cost both my husband and myself, eternity will tell. Have I not a knowledge of the state of the church, when the Lord has presented their case before me again and again for years? Repeated warnings have been given, yet there has been no decided change.... {1SM 26.4}

"Yet now when I send you a testimony of warning and reproof, many of you declare it to be merely the opinion of Sister White. You have thereby insulted the Spirit of God. You know how the Lord has manifested Himself through the Spirit of prophecy. Past, present, and future have passed before me. I have been shown faces that I had never seen, and years afterward I knew them when I saw them. I have been aroused from my sleep with a vivid sense of subjects previously presented to my mind and I have written, at midnight, letters that have gone across the continent, and arriving at a crisis, have saved great disaster to the cause of God. This has been my work for many years. A power has impelled me to reprove and rebuke wrongs that I had not thought of. Is this work of the last thirty-six years from above or from beneath? ... {1SM 27.1}

"When I went to Colorado I was so burdened for you that, in my weakness, I wrote many pages to be read at your camp meeting. Weak and trembling, I arose at three o'clock in the morning to write to you. God was speaking through clay. You might say that this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper, expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision--the precious rays of light shining from the throne.... {1SM 27.2}

"What voice will you acknowledge as the voice of God? What power has the Lord in reserve to correct your

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errors and show you your course as it is? What power to work in the church? If you refuse to believe until every shadow of uncertainty and every possibility of doubt is removed, you will never believe. The doubt that demands perfect knowledge will never yield to faith. Faith rests upon evidence, not demonstration. The Lord requires us to obey the voice of duty, when there are other voices all around us urging us to pursue an opposite course. It requires earnest attention from us to distinguish the voice which speaks from God.

[John317]

3. Your hatred of all who do not buy your contrived Biblical twisting is very reminiscent of the Jews of Christ's day.

Who are you talking to?

Nobody on the Forum has any business talking this way to others. It assumes that you are able to read people's motives and feelings.

[John317]

... Ellen White does not say one word about Hiram Edson being a Prophet on a par with the Biblical Writers. Surely his vision puts Him on a par with Bible Characters such as Stephen the Deacon of Acts. Yet Hiram Edson, himself claims nothing like Stephen, nor is Hiram Edson corroborated in his as of Divine origin by Ellen White.

Hiran Edson never claimed that he had a vision. He never described it in that way. Some writers have desribed it that way, but Edson himself never did. I do believe, though, that God put those thoughts in his mind, yet by themselves they wouldn't be enough to build a doctrine on. He merely "saw" that the sanctuary referred to is the heavenly sanctuary. He was biblically correct in that view. There's absolutely nothing in the Bible to show that the earth is the sanctuary.

[John317]

But I know a lot about our founders, my key interest is in the early history of the church, warts and all. My "heavy hitters" are folks like Hiram, Uriah, James White, A. G. Daniels, even A.T. Jones and Dr. Kellog. Where they went right, or wrong. What the disputes were, how the foundation was built, what the foundation is.

Be sure to read Joseph Bates' Autobiography. It's excellent and can be read online. Bates was the co-founder of the church along with James White.

Don't forget, too, John N. Andrews, and his magnificent book, History of the Sabbath. I believe it also can be read online.

[John317]

...miz3, you have a loosing argument, based on history. It's the same old tired rhetoric the church has heard before. Dressed up, like lip stick on a pig, but it remains the same. There is nothing new here...

I think you have some good insights.

[John317]

I know that. It was precisely my point that ClubV12 is invoking him as if because he is such a "BIG" scholar that we all need to give in because he could never be wrong.

Pastor Sequeira is not so high up that he knows everything. He is the same as the rest of us trying to learn from God what is God's Truth. As such he can know nothing apart from the Holy Spirit (1Corinthians 2:6-16)!

I doubt ClubV12 is doing as you say since he has said that he didn't know anything about Sequeira until he read about him on this discussion.

I believe the evidence shows that Pastor Jack Sequiera is wrong on a number of key issues.

If interested, see Beyond Belief Reviewed by Kevin Paulson. Jack Sequeira's book, Beyond Belief, examined in the light of the Bible and Spirit of prophecy.

[John317]

Read this and tell me what you think. I have no axe to grind....

Read me

Do you believe what Jack Sequeira teaches at that link?

[miz3]

John317,

I believe it was ClubV12 that stated that Hiram Edson "had a vision" and as such his view of the Investigative Judgment was not to be questioned.

In fact it appears that ClubV12 puts Hiram Edson on a par with Ellen White. This is the reason for the statements and questions I have had about Hiram Edson.

[John317]

Was Hiram Edson a "Prophet" the same as Ellen White?

No.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Should we look at all that Hiram Edson communicated in order to gather more light?

Edson wrote very little. And what he said has no authority unless it is verified by the Bible. As it happens, Edson saw that the sanctuary referred to in Daniel 8:14 was not the earth but the sanctuary in heaven. John saw it in Rev. 11: 19.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Does this mean that SDA have TWO PROPHETS?

No one is claiming Hiram Edson was a prophet.

[miz3]

John317,

I read this before.

It seems that Pastor Sequeira is saying that the reason for the "Investigative Judgment" is because of Satan's constant barrage of accusations against God's people.

"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,

and the authority of his Christ.

For the accuser of our brothers,

who accuses them before our God day and night,

has been hurled down.

11 They overcame him

by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony;

they did not love their lives so much

as to shrink from death.

12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens

and you who dwell in them!

But woe to the earth and the sea,

because the devil has gone down to you!

He is filled with fury,

because he knows that his time is short.

Revelation 12:10-12.

It is correct that the Bible states that Satan does accuse us "day and night". However, this passage of Scripture does not assert in way, shape, or form that this is the reason for the "Investigative Judgment" nor does it in any way, shape, or form give even a scintilla of hint that an "Investigative Judgment" exists.

In fact it says we are to rejoice because God "defeated" the Devil. Where did God defeat the Devil?-------at the Cross! Not at the Investigative Judgment but--------at the Cross!

We cannot use this text to show an Investigative Judgment!

[John317]

Your authority is Ellen White, whom you blaspheme by asserting that her communications are above that of the Word of God. She never claimed to do that and always, I mean always pointed others away from her to the Bible and the Bible only.

I don't believe anyone here-- least of all Gerry-- is claiming that Ellen White's writings are above the Word of God.

The fact that we as a church base our doctrines on the Bible and on the Bible alone doesn't mean we ignore the writings of Ellen White. She is also an authority. If that doesn't make sense to you, then you don't understand the teachings and beliefs of the SDA Church.

You are right that Ellen White pointed people to the Bible, but she also wrote that all SDAs should have her books in their homes and study them. The reason God gave her those 2,000 visions was for the purpose of communicating important truths to the SDA church. How foolish we would be to now jettison them.

[miz3]

To all,

God does not owe Satan an explanation of what He does. If He did He would not be God. I again refer you to how Moses body was handled. God did not dialogue with Satan to "prove" that Moses deserved to go to Heaven. God just did it.

Why would God "just do it" if there was an Investigative Judgment?

Where is Moses Investigative Judgment that allows him into Heaven now?

I also found Pastor Sequeira's explanation of the "faith vs works" quite tortured and quite weak. I believe that I agree with his ultimate outcome even though I don't particularly like how he got there.(that is on "faith vs works").

One more thing: I agree with your view of Hiram Edson. However ClubV12 opened the door to my questions that created the stir on this man in the cornfield.

[John317]

...In fact it says we are to rejoice because God "defeated" the Devil. Where did God defeat the Devil?-------at the Cross! Not at the Investigative Judgment but--------at the Cross!

We cannot use this text to show an Investigative Judgment!

I don't think either Jack Sequiera or any SDA would disagree with you that Satan was defeated at the cross. Satan is not defeated at the Investigative Judgment. But Satan's arguments and accusations are exposed and proved to be false by the Investigative Judgment. In other words, the Investigative Judgment is in response to Satan's activity. The little-horn power through whom Satan works is judged and condemned, and judgment is rendered in favor of the saints.

[John317]

God does not owe Satan an explanation of what He does. If He did He would not be God.

This is true. God does not owe it to anyone. God could just as easily demand that everyone in the universe simply accept His way of doing things and His decisions. But God doesn't do that. He doesn't do things in a dark corner. Everything is out in the open for all the universe to see. This is how God treats His intelligent creatures. He even treats the devil with dignity and love.

Jude 1:9

But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

Originally Posted By: miz3

I again refer you to how Moses body was handled. God did not dialogue with Satan to "prove" that Moses deserved to go to Heaven. God just did it.

Why would God "just do it" if there was an Investigative Judgment?

You misunderstand. The Investigative Judgment is not for the purpose of proving anything to Satan. The Investigative Judgment is for the purpose of showing the entire universe the wisdom and righteousnesss of God. It also answers any questions the universe has about former rebels and how God deals with the emergency of sin.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Where is Moses Investigative Judgment that allows him into Heaven now?

The Investigative Judgment also looks at Moses' life as well as at Enoch's and Elijah's. Without Christ's death, those men would have had to die eternally. You can be sure they were very interested in the question of whether Christ would successfully go through with His suffering and death on the cross.

[John317]

Before 1844 God hid from man's understanding the meaning of 1844. When He was ready to reveal this "old light" with "new understanding". He granted Hiram Edson a vision on the subject.

Why did God hide the meaning of 1844 from men's eyes at that time?

What if men had preached that Christ was going to move from the Holy to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary? Would the world then have sat up and taken notice more than it took notice of William Miller?

Hiram Edson never described his experience as a "vision." It appears to have been a definite, very strong impression from the Holy Spirit so that Edson "saw" that the sanctuary was not the earth but the one in heaven. No doubt Edson had read the book of Hebrews and Rev. 11: 19 many times before, yet it was only after the Great Disappointment that he had a clear view of what those texts signified. Hiram Edson's understanding wouldn't have meant much if it hadn't been in harmony with the teachings of the Bible.

[Gerr]

To all,

Your invoking your SDA big heavy hitters, Jack Sequeira, does not make your case more True!

I can't speak for others, but look over the thread. I have brought NOT ONE outside source to back me up except Scripture.

Quote:

Your fundamental problem is:

1. You start from a false premise. That is you now have to defend SDA's long standing Doctrine or feel you are not relevant.

And aren't you starting from a false premise that there is no investigative judgment because the phrase is not found in Scripture?

Quote:

2. Next you twist the Word of God trying to use it to fit your Doctrine of Investigative Judgment into all these texts that when read without your preconceived ideas say nothing at all either explicitly or implicitly about the Doctrine.

The Bible does not explicitly mention "investigative judgment." But I have already mentioned God's instruction in Deutoronomy that when charges are brought against any one, that a "careful investigation" is to be made by the judges about the case before rendering a verdict. How explicit is that for an invesstigative judgment without using the phrase "investigative judgment?" If God requires that for human judges, will He require any less of Himself as Judge?You ignore Daniel & Revelation that EXPLICITLY say that God will judge according to what is recorded in the BOOKS. What is looking at what is recorded if not an investigation of the facts?

Quote:

3. Your hatred of all who do not buy your contrived Biblical twisting is very reminiscent of the Jews of Christ's day.

4. You disrespect the Prophet Ellen White.

5. You create a new Prophet in Hiram Edson. Ellen White does not say one word about Hiram Edson being a Prophet on a par with the Biblical Writers. Surely his vision puts Him on a par with Bible Characters such as Stephen the Deacon of Acts. Yet Hiram Edson, himself claims nothing like Stephen, nor is Hiram Edson corroborated in his as of Divine origin by Ellen White.

For me Items 3,4, &5 are garbage not worth responding to.

[John317]

1..... this Doctrine of Investigative Judgment is based ONLY on Ellen White.

2. That the Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is not based on the Bible.

History shows that the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment was developed out of the Bible and was not based on Ellen White's visions or writings. She didn't write very much about it until the 1880s, and by that time, many others had written a great deal about it on the basis of Bible doctrine.

Have you read O.R. L. Crosier's articles on the sanctuary published in the Day-Star Extra in 1846? This was before Ellen White wrote very much at all about it. You might notice that it does not mention anything about visions or dreams and that it is totally based on the Bible. Ellen White wrote in 1847 that she felt "fully authorized by the Lord, to recommend" Crosier's article "to every saint."

There have been many books published on the Investigative judgment which disprove your idea that the doctrine is not found in the Bible but only in the writings of Ellen White. One of the best to be published recently is titled, The Case for the Investigative Judgment-- Its Biblical Foundation, by Marvin Moore. There are many more. Check it out.

[ClubV12]

Whether Hiram had a visison or a strong impression, such a singular event does not a prophet make. We have many examples of single event "miracle's" by various people in the bible, who are not prophets. From what little we do of Hiram Edson he impresses me as truly a "man of God". I think the Lord chose to reward His servant with this epiphany of truth. It's very interesting that Hiram preceeded Ellen White on this important topic.

[John317]

... it appears that ClubV12 puts Hiram Edson on a par with Ellen White. This is the reason for the statements and questions I have had about Hiram Edson.

OK, thanks for that. I'll look at that carefully. Edson was a significant leader in our church in those early years, but he was never viewed as a prophet. I have no doubt that God used him to bring comfort to other disappoited Adventists and also to begin the process of studying the Bible in order to understand what had happened Oct. 22, 1844.

By the way, James Nix, the current director of the Ellen White Estate, wrote his Master's or Ph. D. Thesis on Hiram Edson. It's unpublished, but very interesting to read.

Back in the 1970s and 80s, James Nix was the director of the Loma Linda Branch office of the White Estate. (I lived just a few blocks from it and enjoyed going to it often.)

[ClubV12]

I don't get this confusion over who is or isn't "on par" with Ellen White? God uses whom ever He pleases to and when He pleases. Some little, some much, prophet, messenger, man of God or even children. Like the child preachers of Europe in the 1800's. Clearly moved by the Holy Spirit speaking of things they couldn't possibly have read or understood. Delivering powerful messages to the people for that time.

"...Master's or Ph. D. Thesis on Hiram Edson. It's unpublished, but very interesting to read." Now thats something I'd like to read!

[John317]

...Hiram received his vision in a cornfield. A few months later Ellen White received a similiar vision on the same subject. Thus making EGW the SECOND, not the first, to receive a "new understanding" of "old light".

Do you refer to Ellen White vision as related in Early Writings, pages 13-20? It's the vision she had in Dec. 1844.

This vision didn't deal with the events that transpired in the heavenly sanctuary, but it was for the purpose of encouraging the disappointed Adventists by assuring them that God had been leading the Millerite Movement and that God was still leading them. However, it offered no new understanding of what had happened on Oct. 22 of that year. There is no mention even of the heavenly sanctuary in that first vision.

[ClubV12]

Ah, good point John. As I recall that December 1844 vision was her first?

Never the less, I do remain under the impression that this fundamental new understanding of the sanctuary came first through Hiram. I hope that doesn't sound like I'm making him out as equal to this or that person. :)

[John317]

Whether Hiram had a visison or a strong impression, such a singular event does not a prophet make. We have many examples of single event "miracle's" by various people in the bible, who are not prophets. From what little we do of Hiram Edson he impresses me as truly a "man of God". I think the Lord chose to reward His servant with this epiphany of truth. It's very interesting that Hiram preceeded Ellen White on this important topic.

I agree. I think it's not coincidental that God used other people to come to a knowledge of the truth regarding the heavenly sanctuary. It shows that God is not leading out only one or two people, but God is leading out a church, and He uses many people to communicate the truth. God did the same thing among the early disciples following Christ's resurrection.

[John317]

... I do remain under the impression that this fundamental new understanding of the sanctuary came first through Hiram. I hope that doesn't sound like I'm making him out as equal to this or that person.

Yes, Hiram Edson was definitely the first one who had this new understanding of what had occurred Oct. 22, 1844. But again, it's very important to remember that his view was confirmed by careful Bible study. If it hadn't been, we wouldn't be talking about it today.

[Gerr]

You misunderstand. The Investigative Judgment is not for the purpose of proving anything to Satan. The Investigative Judgment is for the purpose of showing the entire universe the wisdom and righteousnesss of God. It also answers any questions the universe has about former rebels and how God deals with the emergency of sin.

Isn't it true that not infrequently, people resist vehemently something that they don't understand?