Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[Sonny]

You, on the other hand, seem to me to be someone who is out to try and destroy people's belief and confidence in Ellen White's writings.

Ellen White has good things to say and she has not so good things to say, i.e., she has unintentional error.

All Christians need to put their confidence in God's Word - the Bible - and make it the final word.

[Sonny]

If the IJ does not exist, why does the keeping of the Sabbath matter?

And there's the problem with the way Traditional SDA view the IJ! Hence the IJ is a review of the claims of believers to see if they are worthy of eternal life based on their law keeping. This is legalism and heresy and contradiction justification by faith.

[John317]

All Christians need to put their confidence in God's Word - the Bible - and make it the final word.

This I agree with, of course. We should also study the writings of Ellen White. Why would anyone who believes that God gave her visions and commanded that she write messages for God to the church NOT want to study them? I don't understand.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

All Christians need to put their confidence in God's Word - the Bible - and make it the final word.

This I agree with, of course. We should also study the writings of Ellen White.

Is this a prerequisite to obtaining heaven?

[John317]

Is this a prerequisite to obtaining heaven?

Why? Are you shooting for the lowest common denominator?

Shall we try to find out what we don't absolutely have to do and still be saved?

People are going to be judged by their light and their opportuniiteis. The greater the light the greater the responsibilities to use that light aright. The person who knows the Bible backwards and forwards has greater responsibilities than the person who's never read the Bible or had opportunities to read it.

Remember what Jesus said about the talents.

[miz3]

"But she is the lesser light to lead SDA to the greater light - the Bible. She had limited light - the Bible contains all the light"

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

If the IJ does not exist, why does the keeping of the Sabbath matter?

And there's the problem with the way Traditional SDA view the IJ! Hence the IJ is a review of the claims of believers to see if they are worthy of eternal life based on their law keeping. This is legalism and heresy and contradiction justification by faith.

Read the following verses. They show that the Traditional SDA view is correct:

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Col. 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

1 Thess. 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

REV. 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Rev. 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

NOTE: We are to be worthy of walking with God in white. This obviously refers to being worthy of eternal life with God.

Rev. 22: 14 does not teach false doctrines. God did not allow false doctrine to creeep into the Bible. Both ways of reading Rev,. 22: 14 are correct.

Then you also have the following, which I believe is based on the Bible:

Quote:

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

Do you believe it? I certainly do.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Is this a prerequisite to obtaining heaven?

Why? Are you shooting for the lowest common denominator?

Please answer the question, John, without asking questions.

[John317]

Ellen White often reflected the theological views of her day and God never corrected her or other SDA concerning this. Having said that, in no way diminishes her clear prophetic gift from God in giving true testimonies.

There are those who say the same thing about the apostles and especailly about Paul.

It is true, of course, that Ellen White had many wrong personal opinions. But she didn't write her personal opinions as if they were from God.

What wrong theological views of her day did Ellen White include in her writings for the church?

[miz3]

To all,

SDA cling to these unBiblical Doctrines because they are afraid that if they abandon these "cherished" Doctrines they will be irrelevant.

I do not believe that if the SDA Church was ever (I don't think they ever will because like the Catholic Church they cling to their tradition and claim it "inspired") to abandon these unBiblical Doctrines they would need to fold their tent.

SDA Church has lost its mission from God and this is why they do not succeed as they want to. That mission is to spread the Gospel. Paul spread the Gospel, which was that it was all about Jesus Christ and Him only and what Jesus DID already, not what Jesus is doing NOW! It is a finished Work!

[Sonny]

Do you believe it? I certainly do.

No, I do not believe that we are saved by our works, period. Why? No one is living Christ's life, John, and you darn well know it. So let's skip the pretense, okay?

Let me remind you of two Ellen White quotes (which I can absolutely prove from the Bible):

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them."

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Unless you, or anyone else who claims Christ, are failing to live up to this standard then in the I.J. you will stand condemned.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you believe it? I certainly do.

No, I do not believe that we are saved by our works, period. Why? No one is living Christ's life, John, and you darn well know it. So let's skip the pretense, okay?

There is nothing in any of that which teaches that we are saved by our works. If you think so, it is because you misunderstand it. That is why you reject it. I would reject it, too, if I saw it as you do.

[Sonny]

There is a I.J., but it is not to see how good the Saints are so that they might gain heaven. It's to silence the accusations of Satan.

Here's an accurate view from the writings of Ellen White:

-BC- PK

-TI- Prophets and Kings

-CN- 47

-CT- Joshua and the Angel

-PR- 02

-PG- 588

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

"Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.”

[John317]

Let me remind you of two Ellen White quotes (which I can absolutely prove from the Bible):

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them."

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Unless you, or anyone else who claims Christ, are failing to live up to this standard then in the I.J. you will stand condemned.

What part of the fundmental Beliefs (24) (on the IJ) does the above quote from EGW contradict?

This is what I mean when I say you don't understand the doctrine. The IJ as SDAs understand it does not go against Ellen White's writings. Or the Bible's for that matter. It can be taught in a way that is contrary, but by itself, it does not contradict Mrs. White or the Bible.

[Sonny]

What part of the fundmental Belief

I don't care...I'm telling you that if we are to be judged by our law keeping we've had it. Again, "Unless you, or anyone else who claims Christ, are failing to live up to this standard then in the I.J. you will stand condemned."

[John317]

What do you mean you don't care? I am asking you to examine the FB and tell what part of that statement you believe contradicts the Bible and Ellen White's own writings?

You are claiming that it teaches that we are saved by works. Where does it teach this?

If you are going to make a claim like that, you need to be able to show it. Otherwise you are saying something that is untrue.

We are not saved by our works, yet our works do matter.

Jesus said, If you love me you will keep the commandments.

[Sonny]

We are not saved by our works, yet our works do matter.

In that they save us?

[Sonny]

Where does it teach this?

Here's the contradictory side of Ellen White:

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 05-07-01

AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

Paul links what I've placed in bold lettering as "works of the law", which is the modern-day phrase for legalism. Here's Paul:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. ....18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

We are not saved by our works, yet our works do matter.

In that they save us?

No, our works don't save us. We are saved by God's grace, through faith in Christ. And if we have true faith in Christ, we will obey Him. Do you agree? Jesus Himself said it.

So then the Investigative Judgment reveals who really believes and who really loves Christ. It will distinguish between those who merely make a claim and those who really believe. Jesus taught this in Matt. 7: 21-23.

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

[John317]

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

NOTE: Take another close look at the above Scripture. You'll notice why Jesus says they are rejected: they are workers of lawlessness. What does that mean? It means that the law of God will be the standard in the judgment. These people lived as if there was no law. They no doubt thought they were obeying God's law, but in reality they were not.

But the main point I would make here is that it is obvious that the law is the standard. That is exactly what James 2: 12 says:

James 2:12

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James 1:25

But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Why? Because it is this law which defines sin. It is this law which convicts us of sin:

James 2:9

But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

Romans 7:7

What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

The law points out and convicts us of sin, and Jesus came to destroy sin:

1 John 3:4-5

Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. [5] You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

[miz3]

John317 and others,

Sonny is right. If humans are judged by their works they are dead! It is impossible for us to be saved by our works. Our works have nothing to do with being saved. Works have a different purpose. John you are misinterpreting the Scripture and such often happens because of our connections to Ellen White and her uninspired views.

First, we are saved only by the merits of Jesus Christ and his perfection in keeping the law of God. Second, we are saved because Jesus Christ paid our penalty in full.

Does this mean that "works" are irrelevant? NO!!!!!!!!!!!

If you read the Scripture "works" that are lawful are done because of the SANCTIFYING WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (thus the term Sanctification).

Many humans mix the finished work of Salvation in the two items above. Those two items are what JUSTIFY US (thus the term Justification).

It is an easy, but fundamental mistake, for humans both SDA and others to mix the two processes.

One (JUSTIFICATION) is a FINISHED WORK! The other (SANCTIFICATION) is still an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit until Jesus Comes Again!

SDA mistakenly get confused about this. Other Churches do too because they do not understand what "grace" and "works" mean in the Bible. This is why you have the Grace group and the Legalistic group.

Within SDA we see the Battle of Ellen White quotes in order to bolster which ever group position we are trying to support.

I continually stand amazed at how few really know the Scripture in regard to this vital Doctrine of Salvation. Part of the problem is SDA are so wound up in Ellen White and their "special or unique" Doctrines that the greatness and beauty of what God has done for us in His Plan of Salvation gets lost and/or confused.

No! this is not a personal attack intended to ruffle feathers and to stir up everyone's anger against me. I say this because we (including me!!!!) have much to learn at the Feet of Jesus Christ!

[miz3]

To John317 and others,

The texts which talk about being held to the Law in the Judgment are directed at the "LOST" and are not directed at the "RIGHTEOUS (THE SAVED)".

This is another confusion that SDA and others get trapped into.

An example is the text Joh317 used:

James 2:9 "But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors."

[Sonny]

if we have true faith in Christ, we will obey Him.

Obey Christ or obey the law?

[Kevin H]

we need to realize how much our culture influences us, and the importance of asking what does the person mean in their words. The problem with the discussion is what we are reading into the words we see. Too often when we read Paul's words we don't read Paul's thoughts behind his words but the ideas of Augustine, Luther and Calvin. Too often when we read Mrs. White's words we read in either the school of thought of Haskell, or the school of thought of Washburn and Wilkerson. I am seeing these people's ideas being presented here when posters are thinking they are quoting Mrs. White and Paul

[ClubV12]

Having contemplated this serious issue, righteousnous by faith and it's relation to works I've come to the following conclusion. Being a relative new christian, I'm not sure it passes muster, but it seems to be as clear as anything else I've read on the subject.

By faith, it is indeed possible to perfect the character (sanctification) in THIS life. Which means, to me, I won't despair that it is impossible to keep, perfectly, the laws of God. Faith cannot displace works, they MUST go hand in hand. We must make a decided effort to put away sin from our lives.

Define "decided effort" or justify it however you wish, the statement is plain and simple; It is possible, it is real, it CAN be done, if you have faith!

Faith alone does not remove the responsibility of seeing, understanding and making a commitment (decided effort on your part) to follow the Lord's counsel. For those habits of a lifetime, deeply ingrained within us, it will indeed take a supreme effort and determination to overcome. But it IS possible, through faith, to overcome it in THIS life time. Those who are waiting for that perfect character to be delivered to them by God at His second coming may well find out it is to late.

Sonny, obey the law, by faith, no excuses.