Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[Gary K]

1. Yes, I believe in the concept of the "Great Controversy". However, I may view it differently then most others. Unlike many others I believe the "Great Controversy" is really an inward war. That is a war inside at the very core of what it means to be human. Our initial position is that the "sinful nature" (see Paul in Romans) is our master. As such we are forced to do its bidding. Then because Jesus Christ bought us with a great Price, God claims ownership of us. As our Owner, God comes in to us (work of the Holy Spirit) and begins to clean house so that we do His bidding now. As Romans chapter 7 eloquently portrays the human is torn apart because the sinful nature fights back. We are now caught in a titanic struggle for control of our nature (us). Leaving the story there: this is the Great Controversy.

[Gary K]

Which all makes it quite condescinding to me. God doesn't have to justify anything He does, but He chooses to for our sakes.

But you are free to disagree with my assessment.

[phkrause]

God does not need an investigation to know who is and who is not.

God knew before you and I were born whether we are saved or not.

God knows everything! God does not gather info like you and I so that we can know the Truth.

By the way Romans chapter 9 states that God rendered a judgment about Jacob and Esau even before they were born.

"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Romans 9:11-13.

God judged them, even before they were born. No investigation. Just a sentence of guilt or sentence of innocence.

God did not follow your Deuteronomy model with Jacob and Esau.

In addition, God judged these two even before 1844. God already knew that Jacob was saved and belonged to God's family. God also knew and so do all the humans who read Romans chapter nine that Esau is lost.

Neither of these two humans had any investigative judgment. Nor will they because the judgment has already be given. Can you explain that?

But there families will want to know miz3, I would want to know why any one in my family are not there. Many families are going to want to know why certain members of there family are not there and why.

[Woody]

Yes pk. And God must be vindicated before the Universe as just.

[miz3]

See my reply above. You are ignoring a lot of evidence and fundamental logic. There could be no internal conflict in the human heart if not for Satan's deceptive charges against God, and the warped view of God that is a result of those charges. Our internal conflict is inextricably intertwined with the conflict between God and the Devil.

The fundamental sin, evil, of Lucifer has its origins in a different place than you or I. The two have no relation to each other. Adam's sin in the garden also is different from our sin. Paul points out our sin arises from the our sinful nature. The sinful nature that Adam had "after (not before) Adam sinned. Thus our sin does not arise from "doubt" it arises in us because it controls us (see Paul and the book of Romans).

Before the fall Adam sinned because of "doubt" but we sin because of inherited habit. The two are completely different.

Satan's sin is not known in detail, I think Ellen White calls it a mystery and we are to leave it at that.

My friend I believe you view and analysis are not correct on this point.

[miz3]

pkrause,

God can satisfy your family curiosity without the hoopla of an investigative judgment. God will be happy to set aside time for you one on one with Him to answer your questions. Why drag me into your family questions. I'm not curious about your uncle or your sister, etc. nor would you about mine. This could be settled independently with each family. No need for a big deal.

[miz3]

I keep getting confused as to the reason for the Investigative Judgment.

One says it is to vindicate God's character.

Another says it is settle doubts planted in the universal mind.

Another settle the curiosity of loved ones who didn't make it.

None of these reasons in my view holds up under scrutiny. I think these are weak reasons and not Biblical. That's my opinion.

Maybe others see it as valid.

That raises another question in my mind.....maybe I should start a new topic with it?

[John317]

You really should read some good books on the topic. There are many.

Start with Marvin Moore's The Case for the Investigative Judgment. It's at the ABC. Also Bradley Williams' book, The Silencing of Satan. Then there's Goldstein's Graffiti In the Sanctuary. All these examine the Bible evidence for the Investigative Judgment, NOT Ellen White's views.

There is not only one reason for the Investigative Judgment.

[Woody]

Lots of good options there. What is your option miz3. Do you feel that we don't deserve to know why others are not going to be in heaven with me?

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: GaryK

See my reply above. You are ignoring a lot of evidence and fundamental logic. There could be no internal conflict in the human heart if not for Satan's deceptive charges against God, and the warped view of God that is a result of those charges. Our internal conflict is inextricably intertwined with the conflict between God and the Devil.

The fundamental sin, evil, of Lucifer has its origins in a different place than you or I. The two have no relation to each other. Adam's sin in the garden also is different from our sin. Paul points out our sin arises from the our sinful nature. The sinful nature that Adam had "after (not before) Adam sinned. Thus our sin does not arise from "doubt" it arises in us because it controls us (see Paul and the book of Romans).

Before the fall Adam sinned because of "doubt" but we sin because of inherited habit. The two are completely different.

Satan's sin is not known in detail, I think Ellen White calls it a mystery and we are to leave it at that.

My friend I believe you view and analysis are not correct on this point.

Ummm... You are going to have to explain the assertions you made here. I see no Biblical evidence for any of them.

Satan, Adam, and all of us, his descendents, sin through selfishness. That was the original sin in heaven. Satan wanted Christ's place in heaven. Wanted to be equal with God. He worshipped himself. He placed self above God's expressed will.

We do the same thing. We worship our desires and wants. How do we do that? By placing them above God's written word to us.

How did Eve fall? Because she wanted to be like God. An exact duplicate of Satan's fall. Adam, he just chose to follow her. In other words, he placed someone above God. Once again, an exact duplicate of what Satan did. Satan, Adam, Eve, and all of us chose/choose to place someone above God in their/our lives.

I see no difference in any of the three. Sin is sin.

[miz3]

GaryK,

As to Elijah's doubts it is clear that it was a sin. God rebuked Elijah for having those very doubts by asking Elijah what he was doing so far away from his field of ministry. Then God told Elijah to get himself back to where God wanted him to be. God was not pleased with Elijah for having those doubts.

As to Thomas Jesus ridiculed his unbelief and his doubts. That is exactly what doubts are, they are unbelief. The Bible states that only those who believe will be saved. See John 3:16.

Even in your own examples God is not pleased by doubters.

For the record God did give Elijah and Thomas another chance. (mercy).

God's mercy does not change His displeasure with "doubt"!

[John317]

...That raises another question in my mind.....maybe I should start a new topic with it?

Yes, something like, "What's the IJ For?" or "The purpose of the Investigative Judgment."

[miz3]

John317,

No. I am still think about it.

[Gary K]

GaryK,

As to Elijah's doubts it is clear that it was a sin. God rebuked Elijah for having those very doubts by asking Elijah what he was doing so far away from his field of ministry. Then God told Elijah to get himself back to where God wanted him to be. God was not pleased with Elijah for having those doubts.

As to Thomas Jesus ridiculed his unbelief and his doubts. That is exactly what doubts are, they are unbelief. The Bible states that only those who believe will be saved. See John 3:16.

Even in your own examples God is not pleased by doubters.

For the record God did give Elijah and Thomas another chance. (mercy).

God's mercy does not change His displeasure with "doubt"!

I see. Now you change your point.... First you say anyone who has doubts isn't a follower of God. Now you say I'm right. God does work through our doubts without abandoning us.... Why would He change the way He deals with us once we're in heaven? That makes no sense at all.

As for Elijah, here was a man that had doubts, yet he was also only the second man translated to heaven without seeing death. Apparently God doesn't see things the way you do.

In the cave God didn't put Elijah down for his lapse of faith. He just kept asking him why he was there. God used it as an opportunity to teach, not condemn.

And, in the upper room Jesus dealt with Thomas gently. Jesus wasn't abrasive with him at all. He dealt with Thomas' doubts and then placed a blessing on those who could believe without seeing. That isn't slamming Thomas.

This is just one more instance of what I see as you believing in a much smaller God than the God of the Bible. You place Jesus on the same level as someone who's going to verbally attack someone over very little. It's not like Thomas was questioning God, or teaching falsehoods about Him. He just had to see the risen Christ because having someone come back from the dead was outside of his experience, and thus unbelievable to him.

You'll have to show me where Christ used sarcasm and verbal attacks to teach any individual. In my eyes, you give Him a sinful character, not a holy one.

I'm sure glad God isn't like you and I, and that His ideas of mercy, love, forgiveness and justice are much higher than yours and mine.

[miz3]

How did Eve fall? Because she wanted to be like God. An exact duplicate of Satan's fall. Adam, he just chose to follow her. In other words, he placed someone above God. Once again, an exact duplicate of what Satan did. Satan, Adam, Eve, and all of us chose/choose to place someone above God in their/our lives.

I see no difference in any of the three. Sin is sin.

You are stating the fundamental reason for sin. However that does not explain how one could sin in the first place. That is what I am talking about.

In other words why would a pure Lucifer change into evil incarnate. We are told by Ellen White that such is a mystery.

Why would Eve a sinless being sin, because she made the doubts raised by the snake her doubts and thus ate the apple. Doubts drove her to sin.

Why do you and I sin because we are slaves to the sinful nature. The sinful nature drives us to sin.

In all three cases sin is "selfishness" but the driver in each case is different.

[Gary K]

I keep getting confused as to the reason for the Investigative Judgment.

One says it is to vindicate God's character.

Another says it is settle doubts planted in the universal mind.

Another settle the curiosity of loved ones who didn't make it.

None of these reasons in my view holds up under scrutiny. I think these are weak reasons and not Biblical. That's my opinion.

Maybe others see it as valid.

That raises another question in my mind.....maybe I should start a new topic with it?

I'm curious about this post of yours. Can you not see that all of these views are one and the same? To settle doubts, to know why certain things happened, are about vindicating God's character.

The end result of these investigations will prove God just beyond any reasonable doubt. It will prove that all people who got to heaven deserved to be there, and that all who didn't get there didn't deserve to be there. They all prove God is just, and remove all doubt. God is just dealing with us then the same way He deals with us now: mercifully, lovingly, and graciously. He's not going to change in character.

[miz3]

Why would He change the way He deals with us once we're in heaven? That makes no sense at all.

Gary it is very simple by the time Judgment in heaven comes it is too late to forgive any doubts. Elijah and Thomas had not crossed into the place yet where you are what you are.

If you are filthy then you are filthy. If you are righteous then you are righteous.

Once everything is set then there is no longer any mercy.

God gave David mercy even though his sins were unbelievably heinous. Yet it appears Saul commits a little bitty change and God declares him lost forever.

That tells us whenever God draws the line its permanent.

By the time we are in heaven believe me Gary it will be permanent.

That is how we can make such a distinction that puzzles you.

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: GaryK

How did Eve fall? Because she wanted to be like God. An exact duplicate of Satan's fall. Adam, he just chose to follow her. In other words, he placed someone above God. Once again, an exact duplicate of what Satan did. Satan, Adam, Eve, and all of us chose/choose to place someone above God in their/our lives.

I see no difference in any of the three. Sin is sin.

You are stating the fundamental reason for sin. However that does not explain how one could sin in the first place. That is what I am talking about.

In other words why would a pure Lucifer change into evil incarnate. We are told by Ellen White that such is a mystery.

Why would Eve a sinless being sin, because she made the doubts raised by the snake her doubts and thus ate the apple. Doubts drove her to sin.

Why do you and I sin because we are slaves to the sinful nature. The sinful nature drives us to sin.

In all three cases sin is "selfishness" but the driver in each case is different.

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: GaryK

Why would He change the way He deals with us once we're in heaven? That makes no sense at all.

Gary it is very simple by the time Judgment in heaven comes it is too late to forgive any doubts. Elijah and Thomas had not crossed into the place yet where you are what you are.

If you are filthy then you are filthy. If you are righteous then you are righteous.

Once everything is set then there is no longer any mercy.

God gave David mercy even though his sins were unbelievably heinous. Yet it appears Saul commits a little bitty change and God declares him lost forever.

That tells us whenever God draws the line its permanent.

By the time we are in heaven believe me Gary it will be permanent.

That is how we can make such a distinction that puzzles you.

Hmmm.... So you believe that God, once He has us permanently on His side will then change how He behaves towards His creation. To believe that you must believe that God is a con man and that the Devil's charges against God's character are true. God only wants us to behave the way He wants us to because it's for His benefit, and His alone.

[Gerr]

I hate agreeing with you Gerry. But on this account - I certainly DO.

Get to know me better, Woody, and you'll love agreeing with me.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

That means you don't TRUST GOD!

Is that the ground you want to stand on?

I, we, are living by faith now because we only "know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away....For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, then I SHALL KNOW FULLY, even as I have been fully known."

If I am to know fully, and if sin is never to arise again, God has to make a full disclosure of everything He has done in His dealings with sin & sinners. He is blamed for all kinds of disasters right now - "acts of God." The devil has said that God is a liar. To make the universe eternally safe, the universe must see that He is totally trustworthy. Expand your theological horizons, friend, and you will find what a beautiful gem of truth the Investigative Judgment is, instead of the scary doctrine the devil has tried to make it.

[John317]

Even in your own examples God is not pleased by doubters.

For the record God did give Elijah and Thomas another chance. (mercy).

God's mercy does not change His displeasure with "doubt"!

Miz3, please explain how this happens if people aren't free moral agents. How can God be displeased with them if they have no choice but to do as they do? Isn't God unjust and unreasonable to be displeased or angry with people for doing what they can't help doing? Or do you believe that people are able with God's power to choose whether to doubt or not?

[miz3]

So, your underlying belief seems to be that God cannot overcome sin in the human heart. Once again, I see you believing in a small God. The God I see in the Bible makes no such statements.

That's ridiculous. You are stating things I have never ever said.

I never, ever, said that God could not overcome sin in the human Heart.

Come on Gary.

You cannot read Romans without knowing that Paul clearly states that God is the only one who can overcome the "sinful nature". You and I cannot overcome but God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit will make us "more than conquerors" Romans chapter eight.

You don't read me very carefully.

Come back when you are ready to be serious.

[miz3]

Miz3, please explain how this happens if people aren't free moral agents. How can God be displeased with them if they have no choice but to do as they do? Isn't God unjust and unreasonable to be displeased or angry with people for doing what they can't help doing? Or do you believe that people are able with God's power to choose whether to doubt or not?

This is a good question John317.

God is not unjust.

1. Either the person knew it was wrong and instead of going to God for help they rejected that option which puts them in the default situation which is on their own. This is the course Elijah took when he heard Jezebel's threat. Since God was already a known power to Elijah he could have called on God and God would have strengthened him and God would have given Elijah another victory.

OR

2. The person was ignorant of God and His power in which case God would not hold him accountable. Elijah was not ignorant and he could have trusted God but in this case Elijah rejected God.

OR

3. The person was ignorant that doing something was a sin of doubt or some other sin. This like #2. The only difference is one is ignorant of God and His power and the other is ignorant of God's Law. Either if we are truly ignorant God winks.

You can't fool God by trying to feign ignorance and/or purposefully being ignorant. God is not mocked.

The more God is in you and being your master and the less the sinful nature is your boss, the more freedom the individual has. The stronger the "will becomes". The "will" is stronger because God is its boss. By the same token the more the sinful nature is your boss the less freedom you have because your will gets weaker. (this is our birth condition). God came to free us from the sinful nature and to make us free.

As long as the sinful nature is in control we are never going to be free moral agents. But when Christ rules the heart and He is our boss then and only then can we be free moral agents. This is why Paul makes such a big deal about being "slaves to sin" and being "free in Christ".

I cannot prove it because the Bible does not tell us, but my opinion is that Adam and Eve were "free moral agents" up to the moment they sinned (disobeyed God).

The Bible is clear that after sin humans did not have the ability to be free moral agents.

Fortunately, as Revelation states the "lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world" kicked in and God immediately as stated in Genesis 3:15 informed the humans that He was there immediately to free them.

Able did not reject God's promise, Cain rejected God's promise etc.

This is why we pray and study the Bible because the more God teaches us the less ignorant we are and the freer we are.

That is also a good reason for spreading the Gospel which is God has freed you from sin, stop rejecting His work in you and remaining slaves to the sinful nature. You don't have to be slaves anymore, just call on God because God commands us to call on Him and He will free us. That is what SDA should be preaching.

[Gerr]

God is not unjust.

You don't know that, unless there is an examination/investigation and full disclosure of what He does/has done!