Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[miz3]

Gerry,

I do know that!

I don't need an "examination" as you put it know the Truth about God which is actually to know the Truth. God = Truth!

God = Justice!

I know these things first hand because of what God has done in my life. No one else could do what God has done for me. To me this is clear uncontroverted evidence. I know it now, I don't have wait for some big thing to take place. I don't need any end time signs, I am ready when He is ready. I am ready because God has made me ready. I trust Him even though I cannot explain everything.

Since I have experienced God for myself, I trust (have Faith) in everything He is and everything He does. Even if I don't understand it (which is quite often) I am going to trust Him.

"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"

Matthew 12:39.

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed."

Matthew 16:4.

Martyrs burned to the stake because they trusted God that much even without an "investigation".

When six million Jews and many millions more die in WWII I don't know why God didn't stop the killing. I trust Him and even that does not change my trust in Him.

I don't know why God let's the SDA church squander His riches and it appears He says nothing. I trust Him. He knows what He is doing. He is just in all these things.

I am sorry that you have so little faith and trust in God that you need an investigation to prove to you that God is .........whatever.

I need no such display. God's Word is good enough for me.

Gerry if you had my experience with God there would be no doubt in your mind at all. I feel so sorry for you that you do not have the peace and trust that I have in God. I will pray for you that God will pour out His peace upon you and give you rest.

[Kevin H]

MIZ3: May I ask why you have not once quoted anything from the chapters in "Sanctuary and the Atonement" "The Mighty Opposits: The Atonement in the writings of Ellen G. White" parts 1 and 2 and "We Must All Appear: The Investagative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White"? I have recommended these chapters a long time ago, surely by now you could have gotten them through interlibarary loan and spend just a couple of hours reading them and bringing up points from those chapters. And also John3 has recommended some books. I'd like to see you at least read the 3 chapters in Sanctuary and the atonement, and it would be even better to read those 3 chapters and some of the books John3 recommends (the two would give you a fuller approach than just reading the one would, since what John recommends is more conservative and traditional and the chapters from Sanctuary and the Atonement are more moderate and less traditional) Since you want to discuss this topic it would help if you avoid coming at it from a point of ignorance. Just read those 3 chapters and one of the books John3 recommended and then we can have a more intelegent conversation.

Actually if you would really like to understand it there are even more books to read, and I will mention some as I talk about some of the points that we should understand. You appear to come at it as a very modern, western, greek thinking, either-or thinking, hell fire punishment, augustinian who has a very hard idea of holding more than 1 idea at a time, especially if you come upon a set of opposits.

Besides the books specifically in the investagative judgment, it would be increatably useful for you to look at the thought processes of the ancient near east. If you can get a hold of the book "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others (1946 University of Chicago Press) and also it appears that the works by Mircea Eliade might cover much of the same material. It would be very useful for you to be aware of ancient thought, the thought process of the Bible. The idea of Cyclic thought, their understandings of here and there, now and then and also their consept of the sacred Mountain. Since the mid 1800s we have entered into a whole new world of Biblical Studies, we get to investagate the scriptures such as never before. As you study the ancient world, such as the consept of the sacred mountain, you would learn that it would be impossible to have such dramatic changes on earth without a corrisponding event in heaven.

A second issue is the roles of our two attitudes; Respect or liking the world on an honest basis, or "When we love the world as he[Jesus] has loved it, then for us his mission is accomplished; we are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts" and the issue of Contempt, or thinking we are for ourselves by making less of the ourside world. The poet-philosopher Eli Siegel (and also Dr. William Glasser's work dovetails Siegel's thought nicely) has done intensive study into these two attitudes in us, and they are very key to the investagative judgment. Also Siegel looks closely at the opposits, which can help you to hold more than one thought at a time.

A third issue is the nature of hell fire. If hell fire is the traditional Catholic / Baptist hell literal fire of the nature of say lighting a match or lava, which is a divine spanking, then the question is "How can I get God to let me into heaven and not send me to hell" then there can be a question as to how the investagative judment fits. But if God treats everyone the same at the end, and the difference is how we respond to the glory of God's love, then the investagative judgment is very important for this view, whether it started in 1844 or if it was to start in the year 2525 this second view of hell needs to have an aspect that fits the ideas of the Investagative Judgment.

Finally we need to look at the issues of the Great Controversy: The 3 aspects of the trinity, the 3 deceptions of Satan and how God is dealing with the 3 deceptions of Satan.

Either get yourself to an Adventist libarary (or throught interlibarary loan from your local libarary) and get "Sanctuary and the Atonement" (make sure it is the yellow and black cover, not the blue and red cover) and read those 3 chapters. Get at least one of the books John3 recommended. At least read the Wickopedia articles on Eli Siegel and Aesthetic Realism, William Glasser and Choice Theory, and Marcea Eliade. I have not tried this but you might pick up something if you google " Sacred Mountain" Then come back and you can be less confused as you discuss.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Miz3, have you ever had a close experience with Satan? I have. And I've also had a close experience with God. The two are nearly identical. Do you know how to identify which is which?

[miz3]

Kevin H,

First of all I am not confused. From reading your post it is easy for me to see that you are the one who is confused. You have so many

UNGODLY SOURCES

it is no wonder that you are confused. This is because you get your information from straight from

BABYLON

You see Kevin H I don't care what all these other "small brains" (who think they are big brains) who spout what they believe is knowledge and truth.

I will not waste my time with them and become as confused as you are and they are. I will stay with the PRIMARY SOURCE of all time, the Bible and its Author. You see Kevin when God and I are together studying His Word (Bible) I learn more than a hundred different Phds in a hundred different disciplines.

What you don't understand is the Bible is not to be learned by the arrogance and loftiness of human greatness. The Bible and its Knowledge is not to be learned like you learn math, biology, chemistry, quantum mechanics, etc. The Bible is learned by uneducated people like "Mary" (of Mary and Martha and Lazarus) sitting humbly at the feet of Jesus being taught by the Author Himself. The Bible and Truth are learned by uneducated fisherman who spent time each day with God learning about His Kingdom and its Righteousness. A humble despised woman without education in the 19th Century ran rings around the great men of her day because she was picked by God. Paul said that he accounted everything (including his superior education) as garbage compared to knowing Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. Moses when he was finally humble(mot before) talked face to face with God.

All these persons I cited learned that to know the Bible and its Truth there is only

ONE WAY

and that is to spend time daily with the Bible and its Author.

If I did as you suggest I would be shrinking my knowledge and wisdom not making it bigger and better.

You may have meant well. I just can't afford to waist my time doing as you suggest. I wish you could see the great error you make by even suggesting such a thing to me.

You may not have meant to insult me and my intelligence but suggesting such a course of study you did insult my already lofty position in knowledge gained sitting at the feet of Jesus Christ.

Like the Jewish Pharisees of old you don't even know that you have been whipped in this discussion. Until you come to Christ humbly you will never know just how lost and confused you are. As Jesus Christ told Nicodemus in John chapter 3, "you must be born again".

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: GaryK

So, your underlying belief seems to be that God cannot overcome sin in the human heart. Once again, I see you believing in a small God. The God I see in the Bible makes no such statements.

That's ridiculous. You are stating things I have never ever said.

I never, ever, said that God could not overcome sin in the human Heart.

Come on Gary.

[Gerr]

Gerry if you had my experience with God there would be no doubt in your mind at all. I feel so sorry for you that you do not have the peace and trust that I have in God. I will pray for you that God will pour out His peace upon you and give you rest.

Addresssed to Kevin:

You may have meant well. I just can't afford to waist my time doing as you suggest. I wish you could see the great error you make by even suggesting such a thing to me.

You may not have meant to insult me and my intelligence but suggesting such a course of study you did insult my already lofty position in knowledge gained sitting at the feet of Jesus Christ.

Hmmmmm. All I can say is that you must be blind to how you come across to others, and yet charge them with bearing false witness when their impression is expressed!

If you can't see how nauseatingly condescending and smug statements like the above and others you have made, I can understand how you can't see truths like man having freedom of choice or the investigative judgment even though they are staring you in the face. You have no idea about the spiritual condition of people you don't even know to make judgments about them.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

I do know that!

I don't need an "examination" as you put it know the Truth about God which is actually to know the Truth. God = Truth!

God = Justice!

You know that only by faith! Someday we will know face to face. God will be able to show by the BOOKS how righteous and just and faithful He has been, even when it seemed that He had been unfaithful to His promises.

If you have no need for the books of record, fine, but God obviously has them for curious people like me who want to see the evidence for things they only held by faith.

[miz3]

Ummm.... Yes you did say that, only you didn't even realize the implications of your own words, and the underlying belief that caused you to say it

.

Show me the words I spoke that prove your charge!

[Kevin H]

Miz3: Excuses, excuses we hear them every day... First the basic books, the 3 chapters from Sanctuary and the Atonement and the books that John 3 recommended are not secular books. At least read them. As for the other books, Frankfort was a historian, Eliade (actually I don't know enought to fully recommend him but he seems to bring about many of the same historical facts that Frankfort did and his books are easier to find, but his books might be a little more Babylonish than Frankfort's, I don't know for sure). But what is so wrong with studying the history and background of the Bible? But you don't need to read those other sources, I only had them down as secondary

So let me see if I can follow your arguments: The investagative judgment was made up by Adventists and only come from Ellen White. You don't understand it, you want to argue it but you insist on arguing from a position of ignorance, when there are suggested Adventist studies which you can use to either understand better and if you wish you can use the evidence to develop better and stronger arguments against the Investagative Judgment, such as these 3 chapters in Sanctuary and the Atonement and the books that John3 recommended, you seem to find reasons to avoid reading them yet you act like you assume that you know everything they will have to say. Surely you are not being too lazy to read those few pages. When books outside of Adventisism have been written which gives evidence that supports the Investagative Judgment you say they come from Babylon. Finally it sounds like you are teaching that the only reliable sourse is the Bible and your imagination. Are you sure that you are not arguing just to argue? Are you sure you don't have the attitude "My mind is made up, please don't confuse me with the facts?" Are you sure you don't want to play Pope pushing your imagination on to the rest of us based on your holy decree? It sounds like you are trying to say to me "You are confused because you listen to other sources besides my interpetation of the Bible."

John3 has given you a few books, and while I had suggested books for additional reading, I gave you 3 chapters, between John3's books and those 3 chapters we let you know of arguments that we find more convincing than your arguments. Looking at these chapters and at least one of these books you are given the freedom and information to really come down hard on them and to show from them the falicy of our beliefs. John3 and I have given you amunition and are standing tied to the stake where you can take our amunition and fire at us and completely destroy our belief if you can find credible arguments from thise writings that you can use against us. But you keep finding excuses to avoid these situation and just make the arguments that we think are just the ramblings of someone who does not know what he's talking about. Just read those 3 chapters and just one of those books and you can argue with us from a position of knowlege and the power that comes with it.

[miz3]

You are saying God cannot overcome sin in the life of His own servants. I'm sorry, but you believe in a God who less powerful than sin.

I never said that God could not overcome the sinful nature.

In fact if you read me and also Romans carefully you will find we both said that it is only God (Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit) who can give us victory over the sinful nature.

Come on Gary stop trying to create "phantom" things about what I said just so you can look good in your eyes that you are smashing me and vindicating your position.

Its not becoming Gary K besides you are being dishonest by fabricating your accusations against me. Stop it!

[miz3]

Hmmmmm. All I can say is that you must be blind to how you come across to others, and yet charge them with bearing false witness when their impression is expressed!

If you can't see how nauseatingly condescending and smug statements like the above and others you have made, I can understand how you can't see truths like man having freedom of choice or the investigative judgment even though they are staring you in the face. You have no idea about the spiritual condition of people you don't even know to make judgments about them.

Come on Gerry you can join me at the feet of Jesus. Then we would be both the same. Both us together learning the great things of the Kingdom of Heaven, together.

[miz3]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: miz3

Gerry,

I do know that!

I don't need an "examination" as you put it know the Truth about God which is actually to know the Truth. God = Truth!

God = Justice!

You know that only by faith!

EXACTLY!

That is all I need.

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: GaryK

Ummm.... Yes you did say that, only you didn't even realize the implications of your own words, and the underlying belief that caused you to say it

.

Show me the words I spoke that prove your charge!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: GerryCabalo

Hmmmmm. All I can say is that you must be blind to how you come across to others, and yet charge them with bearing false witness when their impression is expressed!

If you can't see how nauseatingly condescending and smug statements like the above and others you have made, I can understand how you can't see truths like man having freedom of choice or the investigative judgment even though they are staring you in the face. You have no idea about the spiritual condition of people you don't even know to make judgments about them.

Come on Gerry you can join me at the feet of Jesus. Then we would be both the same. Both us together learning the great things of the Kingdom of Heaven, together.

There again!!! What are you saying? That I & others have been sitting at the feet of Satan?

[miz3]

Kevin H,

You are free to sit at the feet of those who think they are wise and they are mortals just like you and I.

I will remain with my Bible sitting at the feet of Jesus, thank you very much.

You cannot goad me with you insults, which demonstrates that you have an empty set of arguments.

In fact speaking of wanting to argue, it appears that people who read what you suggest, like yourself (since you are so well read) are really the ones who want to argue just to argue.

[miz3]

You are stating the fundamental reason for sin. However that does not explain how one could sin in the first place. That is what I am talking about.

In other words why would a pure Lucifer change into evil incarnate. We are told by Ellen White that such is a mystery.

Why would Eve a sinless being sin, because she made the doubts raised by the snake her doubts and thus ate the apple. Doubts drove her to sin.

Why do you and I sin because we are slaves to the sinful nature. The sinful nature drives us to sin.

In all three cases sin is "selfishness" but the driver in each case is different.

You are saying this implies that I believe God is to small and weak to overcome sin?

What are you smoking Gary K?

There is nothing either direct or indirect in any of those statements that says God (Father, Christ, Holy Spirit) is not able to overcome sin!

Your just swing at air.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: miz3

Gerry,

I do know that!

I don't need an "examination" as you put it know the Truth about God which is actually to know the Truth. God = Truth!

God = Justice!

Originally Posted By: GerryCabalo

You know that only by faith!

EXACTLY!

That is all I need.

Fine for you! But someday I want to know why God did certain things. How/why Hitler or Stalin are in heaven IF they will be there. And why HMS Richards is in hell IF he winds up there. Any and ALL questions we have about such matters, will and can be cleared up by the facts brought to view in the investigative judgment. If you have no curiosity about such incongruities, again, fine. But I find it interesting that you are setting yourself up as the standard to follow. Sorry, but your feet are feet of clay, just like everyone of us.

[miz3]

There again!!! What are you saying? That I & others have been sitting at the feet of Satan?

I don't know where you are sitting Gerry, I just know that you are not quoting and reading the Bible and the Bible only.

Even when you quote the Bible you try and make it say things that the Bible id not saying.

You tell me Gerry, where does that make you sit?

[miz3]

But I find it interesting that you are setting yourself up as the standard to follow. Sorry, but your feet are feet of clay, just like everyone of us.

You are correct that my feet are clay just like yours.

NO, Gerry, I am not the standard, and I never said I was the standard.

The only standard, Gerry, is God and His Word the Bible!

That is the Standard and I invite you to learn with me from this Standard just exactly what the Truth is.

[Gerr]

The only standard, Gerry, is God and His Word the Bible!

That is the Standard and I invite you to learn with me from this Standard just exactly what the Truth is.

I agree with you about the standard. But what are you implying by your last sentence?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: GerryCabalo

There again!!! What are you saying? That I & others have been sitting at the feet of Satan?

I don't know where you are sitting Gerry, I just know that you are not quoting and reading the Bible and the Bible only.

Even when you quote the Bible you try and make it say things that the Bible id not saying.

You tell me Gerry, where does that make you sit?

WOW!!!

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You are stating the fundamental reason for sin. However that does not explain how one could sin in the first place. That is what I am talking about.

In other words why would a pure Lucifer change into evil incarnate. We are told by Ellen White that such is a mystery.

Why would Eve a sinless being sin, because she made the doubts raised by the snake her doubts and thus ate the apple. Doubts drove her to sin.

Why do you and I sin because we are slaves to the sinful nature. The sinful nature drives us to sin.

In all three cases sin is "selfishness" but the driver in each case is different.

You are saying this implies that I believe God is to small and weak to overcome sin?

What are you smoking Gary K?

There is nothing either direct or indirect in any of those statements that says God (Father, Christ, Holy Spirit) is not able to overcome sin!

Your just swing at air.

[miz3]

You claim to be a slave of your sinful nature. You openly stated here, and I've quoted it to you twice. If believe that you are a slave to your sinful nature then you do not believe your old man of sin has died, or you do not believe God can overcome your sinful nature. It's one or the other, miz3.

You can't claim that God has the power to overcome sin and then state that our sinful natures "drives us to sin". You must believe one or the other to stay logically consistent. Remember what Paul says in Romans 6.

Gary K we are all slaves to our sinful nature that is why we sin. Every time you sin Gary you are exhibiting that you are still bound in some way to your sinful nature.

No one is totally free of the sinful nature yet. In religious circles we call this process, SANCTIFICATION.

Sanctification is the process where God gradually takes over more and more of us and that leaves the sinful nature with less and less of us.

You are confusing the desire within us to belong totally to God and the actual accomplishment of that goal. You need to read Romans chapter seven which clearly demonstrates the war within the human entity between God and the sinful nature.

Romans chapter eight assures us of total victory because God and Jesus Christ attain that victory for us.

Now if you are already perfect Gary and have no sin in your life at all then you will not know what I am talking about. However, if you do have sin creating havoc with your life then you should fully understand Romans chapters seven and eight and the war between God and the sinful nature.

No one is saying God is too small.

Like I said maybe your "old man" of sin is gone in which case you have no sinful nature, in which case you are Perfect and you do not ever commit sin, nor will you ever commit sin again.

You are indeed a fortunate person, Gary, because practically all the rest of us are not where you are.

[Kevin H]

Miz3, I do sit at the feet of Jesus in study of the Bible. But this includes reading what the linguists say about the text and the context of the words. To look up the geography where the Bible stories took place and see how the geography can help us understand the text even clearer, and learning about the culture of the Bible. I'm sorry but by what authority can you claim that my studying the Bible is not sitting at the feet of Jesus. I'm sorry but I understand what I am doing as sitting and learning at the feet of Jesus. I love Jesus, I live in the joy of Jesus, I am studying the Bible and worshiping according to the dictates of my conscience. If I am in error, show me my error, don't think that because I don't look at the words of scripture and limit their interpetation to my imagination and rejecting facts and evidence as meaning that you are sitting at the feet of Jesus.

Your methods reminds me of the Mormons who say just read the book of mormon and let it speak to your heart, or the Jehovah's Witnesses who say to just read their texts from the New World Translatorn and let God speak to your heart, or the New Age People looking for the spirit of their get togethers. Sounds like the spirit is leading a lot of people a lot of different directions as opposed to the Bible and to truely study the Bible including the history and culture and linguistic studies etc.

Also, if I understand you, the Adventists who teach the investagative judgment are deluded so it is a wast of time to read their writings. Looking at non-Adventists who give evidence that can support the Investagative Judgment are Babylon, so the only truth and only things to look at is your views and those who happen to think the same as you do. Again reminding me of the Jehovah's Witnesses logic and they way they don't want people to look at Biblical scholarship.

Now you say that you can not waste your mind reading serious studies in the Investagative Judgment, however you are willing to wast your time to come here and discuss from a position of ignorance and expect to convince us to give up our understanding based on your ecclistical decree and what your emotions tell you to do... You have to do a lot better than that to convince me, but you are already out of the competation if you are not willing to look at the evidence so that we can be singing off the same sheet of music.

Now there are points that I am ignorant on. I know very little about nucular physics. I am not worried about my ignorance of nucular physics. However, if I was to go and visit a nucular physicists website to convince them they were wrong, my ignorance would not help me.

Or for another example, I am a creationist. Maybe not as conservative as other creationists would like me to be, but I believe that God sang the world into existance over 6 days and rested on the Sabbath. That Adam and Eve were real people and the first humans that we all decended from. I do not believe that the world developed over years of evolution. However if I wanted to go to an evolutionist's website to convince them I would not have the background to be fair to my view and to be fair in my debate with theirs. It would not look very smart for me to come in and ask some questioins, refuse to listen to answers then suddenly pull authority over them by becoming Pope Kevin the 666th and issue an eccleastical bull demanding them to give up their godless evolution and accept creationism. No, if I wanted to work on them I'd have to learn some about their views even if it is reading some books by godless evolutionists who are going to be lost, and show them that I have some understanding of where they are coming from, instead of coming in ignorance and demanding that I am right because I feel right.

If you want to remain ignorant of the Investagative Judgment, that is your right, I do not have a pressing need to convince you, however you seem to have a pressing need to convince us. Therefore if you are going to discuss this here and apperently want to show us that we are wrong, it would help if you can get some of the facts that you can argue from. There is a world of difference between coming up to us and saying "Bang, Bang!!! Hey why don't you fall down dead? Didn't you hear me I said Bang bang!!!" and actually coming up to us with a gun loaded with amunition and firing it. John and I have told you where you can get amunition, but you would rather say "Bang, bang, hey I said bang, bang and by my authority I demand that you fall down dead." I am not asking you to agree with us. I'm not asking you to stop trying to convince us that we are wrong. I'm just saying respect our view enough to be able to understand where we are coming from and why we believe this and then if you want show the weak points of those 3 chapters and the books.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Pope Kevin the 666th

Brilliant wit!