Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Kevin H.

Your too busy. OK.

I was not asking for much. I only wanted you to give me the Biblical instances where this vast number of "little investigative judgments" exist. Like I thought you clearly cannot give me such a list.

Obviously, you were aware of the vast stuff you needed to present your position before you jumped in to lecture me. Yet you jumped in despite the "busy" schedule you have. I would call that rather poor judgment in the use of time. As a military person, I appreciate your sacrifices for our country. However, I hope your lack of good judgment does not cost us precious human lives.

My personal opinion is that you thought it would be an easy thing to wow me with your "breadth of knowledge"??? and that I would wilt before your stunning array of expertise. That obviously did not work.

You have no real answers for me and cannot answer from the Bible and the Bible only. You are not able to make your case because your case does not exist, except in the fantasy of you mind. You have time to read all those outside sources, but it appears you don't have time to demonstrate a few examples from the Bible. That speaks volumes, Kevin H. Thus, you are resigning from the issue using your excuses.

I wish you God speed and His protection when you are in harms way. (Physically and most importantly Spiritually)!

I'm breaking my word.

Miz3, go stick a carrot in in your ear. You don't know squat. You seem to like to tear people down to make yourself look good. It isn't working. You don't know Kevin H. Put a cork on it.

**back to the shadows**

[miz3]

rudywoofs,

I guess I can see the spirit of Christ in you.

Its not about tearing people down, rudywoofs, its about those who claim to be super intelligent and super knowledgeable who shoot there mouths off and them come to find out they are nothing but hot air.

I did not ask a complex question, it requires only a simple "thus saith the Lord". Neither you, nor Kevin H. nor anyone else has given me a straight answer.

All I get is filibuster pap filled with everything but the Bible and the Bible only.

Now you are reduced to name calling and heaping curses on me. Sounds a lot like what the Pharisees did to Jesus because they and their Doctrines were filled with vapidness and not based on the Scripture.

This is also a fine example you are setting for all to see of the great Christianity of the SDA Church. Is this the character you want the nonSDA listeners to see and hear?

[Gerr]

Gerry,

Whether you ever quoted Ellen White or not is not what I said. Ellen White is written all over your positions and remarks. It's just a fact.

So if I say 2+2=4, my conclusion therefore the work of preceding students work written all over it? That Newton's work on calculus had Leibnitz written all over it or vice versa? And why do you single out EGW? Why not say, Arnulf, or Luther, or Wesley, has his name written all over it? I don't understand your fixation on EGW.

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As to the "Christ's sinful nature" issue, look at the thread that talks about that very thing and it is all over the place.

You already know my position about the sinlessness of Christ's human nature from another thread. I don't care what individual SDA members believe; what matter is - what is the church's official doctrine?

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I think gustave has taken care of your views of Christ's temptation.

Which is false. To deny that He could have been tempted to sin is to deny His humanity. That's an old gnostic heresy.

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Unlike other churches SDA point to the Bible as specifically designating them as a church of the last day. I don't see other churches doing the same thing.

Talk to a Catholic priest, and see if there is salvation outside the RCC. What does, "Church of Christ" imply to you? Or "Churchd of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?"

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We SDA get our view of Revelation 13 from Ellen White plain and simple.

Well, have it your way. We'll see soon enough if the SDA position is the right one. That interpretation was put forward long before the USA was a super power. So far it is proving to be true.

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I don't have to prove that the Investigative Judgment is NOT in the Bible, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that it is in the Bible. SDA and you are asserting that it exists so you have the burden of proof. Clearly, Gerry, you have not even come close to doing that from a Bible and Bible only stand point.

Since you only accept it as being in the Bible if the phrase "Investigative Judgment" is expressly found, even though God commands to "investigate thoroughly" any court cases, it would be a futile exercise to prove it to you.

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I don't want to take Ellen White away. NO, NO! She has too much good for such a radical move. Besides the problem is NOT WITH ELLEN WHITE!

The problem is with people such as yourself, and ClubV12, who base your interpretations of Scripture on her opinions of those Scriptures.

Yeah, right! And the only way to disprove you would be to junk all all those doctrines you have issues with, and EGW with them. Right?

[miz3]

Gerry Cabalo,

I graciously accept you admission of defeat.

[Gerr]

Gerry Cabalo,

I graciously accept you admission of defeat.

Dt 13: 12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to live in, anyone saying that

13 some worthless men have gone out from among you and have seduced the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom you have not known),

14 then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. If it is true and the matter established that this abomination has been done among you,

Dt 17:2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. NIV

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

The Holy Bible: New International Version. 1996 (electronic ed.) (Re 20:12). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

9 “As I looked,

“thrones were set in place,

and the Ancient of Days took his seat.

His clothing was as white as snow;

the hair of his head was white like wool.

His throne was flaming with fire,

and its wheels were all ablaze.

10 A river of fire was flowing,

coming out from before him.

Thousands upon thousands attended him;

ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.

The court was seated,

and the books were opened.

The Holy Bible: New International Version. 1996 (electronic ed.) (Da 7:9–10). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

Can't get any plainer than that.

[miz3]

Gerry Cabalo,

Your right the Bible can't get any plainer that the texts you cited have NOTHING to do with an Investigative Judgment.

None of those texts say God is going to hold an investigative judgment prior to the Second Coming.

Deuteronomy texts use the word "investigate" but it is not talking about God doing the investigating.

The Revelation texts use the word judgment but these texts are talking about the Judgment after the Second Coming.

Daniel chapter seven is not talking about a judgment prior to the Second Coming either. Nor does it even infer their is an investigation as part of this judgment.

You are also trying to string texts together that have nothing to do with each other in regard to an "IJ". This is the sloppiest use of stringing texts together and is the farthest stretch to make a point. It just doesn't cut it Gerry.

[Kevin H]

I'm not replying to miz3 right now. He is right and needs one of us to take the time to spell out from the Bible this doctrine. I hope that I can find the time. It appears that he can find the time to read false information about what we believe, but a waste of time to want to go where he can find out the truth about it unless we find the time to spell it out for him here. I will see what I can do, but I can't promise.

The purpose of this post is that I just got this in an e-mail from a friend and wanted to paste it here, some of this might be controversial, but even so I feel it is useful in studying the Investigative Judgement as it covers many of the big issues involved with this doctrine. I hope you enjoy reading it as much as I did and that you find it useful.

--Kevin H.

First, thank you to those who have contacted us and have prayed in our behalf for recovery from our recent accident. More than one in our family has musculoskeletal issues -- serious ones -- from accidents in youth that only become more troublesome as time passes.

But let's take this occasion, before moving to the momentous events of the past few months, to speak to how God protects and sustains His servants. The purpose of God's leading is always to lead us to Christ and our eternal salvation. In that process, the suffering that has resulted from sin is used by God to our spiritual advantage.

"To whom much is given, much is required." Job, the tenth king of Edom and the original giant of faith, expressed accurately that he understood that what happens is ultimately in the hands of God. (Satan is an entirely dependent being, whose actions only serve to illustrate the life-giving qualities of God's love, and that sin by its nature is self-destructive. Nothing the demons do has ever gone outside the will of God or limited God's absolute sovereignty in any way. The ultimate example of this is the death of Christ; the massed demons of hell delighted in pouring out on Christ all the torture and suffering that only His Infinite Nature could endure. Too late they realized that they had completely undermined their own claims of a simple quest for freedom, and that their actions had finally removed every shred of sympathy for them among the unfallen beings of the universe.)

While Satan and his host are still glad to carry out all the suffering they can upon those they capture, we must remember that no independent authority is given them over God's servants. When God uses suffering, as He did with Job, it is for a moral purpose. We are often placed under illness or accident, if, as followers of Christ, we are in danger of losing eternal life by reason of pride or arrogance. In other ways God uses suffering to PRE-EMPT pride in those who have carefully submitted their wills to Him, in order that we may not stray from the path which leads to life. That path is straight, and the gate to it narrow (meaning we have to leave behind our cherished sins). And there are few who find it, Our Lord said. The road that leads to death is broad, and its gate, by contrast, is wide, and multitudes find that road, Jesus said.

As Paul tell us, "We have this treasure in earthen vessels." Pray that we will not soften the message for individuals or groups, and press forward with all strength and speed.

In suffering we are to rejoice, understanding God's purpose to bring us to life beyond suffering and incapable of death. When we see persons who have so obviously clung to their cherished sins questioning why God is leading them thus, we see clearly how little they understand of God's leading, or what is required in surrendering the ENTIRE life to Him!

Beware of False Prophets

In His final public sermon, the Lord spoke of His return. Among the many warnings, one repeated warning was the abundance of false Christs and false prophets that would characterize the end of the age. He did NOT, of course, say to beware of anyone claiming the gift of prophecy. How could He? Prophecy is the highest gift of the Spirit bestowed on believers beyond apostleship, which was an experience of eyewitness proof of the resurrection, which is open to none but the original apostles. Paul says "Earnestly desire the higher gifts" (he actually ranks them in importance), "especially that you may prophesy." How few today grasp the significance of his long and detailed discussion of the Gifts received by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit! How few would imagine to seek them, much less EARNESTLY DESIRE them! And how often is the ministry of the Spirit, when it moves to supernatural signs, branded by fools the work of the devil!

Rather, the Lord required DISCRIMINATION. IT WAS NOT PROPHETS ONE WAS TO BE WARY OF, FOR THE END OF THE AGE IS CHARACTERIZED BY THE PRESENCE OF THOSE WHO HAVE RECEIVED THESE GIFTS BY GRACE. Rather, it was discrimination available only by another of the Gifts -- discerning of spirits -- that one led by the Spirit could beware of false prophets. ONE CANNOT OF ONESELF PROPERLY DISCERN, FOR BY NATURE THE SPIRITUAL IS NOT OPEN TO CARNAL UNDERSTANDING. Only a humble supplicant who prays for and receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (as John pointed out) can have such powers.

We think of a statement of a 19th century believer who gave many evidences of having the Gift of Prophecy bestowed. Few today realize how consistently this gift was exercised over the centuries as God led those most deeply committed by direct revelation! The Gift of Prophecy does not refer to one person, but to the Gift itself, given graciously to MANY in the Church's history. The woman of whom we speak was recognized by many to have the authentic Gift. The most obvious evidence is that over time, the leading of the Spirit led this woman to true, sound, orthodox understanding of the nature of God, the nature of the atonement, and especially the nature of Christ as "light from light, true God from true God, begotten but not made, of one substance with the Father" and so forth. This, despite coming from a heretical Arian background!

Ellen White (1827-1915), of whom we are speaking, referred to the time just prior to Christ's coming and the general conditions that would exist at that time. In 1884 she wrote largely on the end-time, and speaking of the final coming of the Spirit upon the Church, she wrote

"Before the coming of Christ there will be such a revival of primitive godliness and an outpouring of the Spirit such as has not been seen since apostolic times.... Before the time for such as movement shall have come, Satan will endeavor to prevent it by introducing a great false revival among those churches which he is able to bring under his influence.... In ages past revival was accompanied by confession and forsaking of sin and true reformation........ No revival is genuine that does not work reformation."

The great final revival will come by the reception of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, conferred directly by Christ upon his last-day servants. Now note, this baptism is NOT a reception of the Spirit that God confers automatically, "giving a measure of His Spirit to all men" as Scripture says. It comes, as it came for the Apostles, only after clear and consistent following of Christ, gaining spiritual power and overcoming cherished sins. The Spirit cannot dwell in one who is committed to cherishing sin and keeping the body/mind/spirit open to the control of demons.

Note that these two events -- the pouring out of the Spirit -- at the beginning and end of the cycle of the Church's mission are compared to the early rain and late rain (the spring and fall rain) in the agrarian cycle of ancient Palestine. In each case the rains brought FINAL MATURATION to the harvest, the grain harvest in the Spring and the vintage harvest in the Fall.

The early and late rain did not come upon ALL of God's claimed people, but only a small remnant of them. The same will be true as the cycle ends. The vast majority of those now claiming to embrace a great revival that will swell their numbers and make the Church triumphant will be lost.

The Forerunner Revives the Nation

John the Baptist understood all this. What makes a true revival, and what the outcome should be, was clear in his mind and preaching. He did not foolishly preach a cheap grace, whereby people could only give mental assent but not make any change in their sinful lifestyles. For him, their claims to be God's people were irrelevant and useless. It was the fruit of their lives that would attest to their true faith. The evangelist records:

He [John] said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the

wrath to come? Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for

I tell you God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham! Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every

tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

And the multitudes asked him, "What then shall we do?"

And he answered them, "He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none, and he who has food, let him do likewise.

Tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do? And he said to the, "Collect no more

than is appointed you."

Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?"

And he said to them, "Rob no one by violence or by false accusation. And be content with your wages."

There is no more practical passage in the Bible, except possibly the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, which has exactly the same point, on how to pass the judgment favorably. Here we see the remarkable spiritual power of John the Baptist. The convincing power of the Holy Spirit drew even unexpected groups to him; in his presence sinners were convicted and the goal of a better life appeared in their thoughts. This was because John himself had already been filled with the Spirit. His severe lifestyle throughout life had brought his natural human selfishness under the control of the Spiritl Later the Savior of the world was to make the most remarkable statement that "Among men born of women, none was greater than John the Baptist!"

John answered directly. In getting ready for the reign of the Messianic King, no one among the Jews should even BEGIN to think (much less actually form the thought!) that their alleged descent from Abraham had any merit whatever in passing the Last Judgment.

Three classes are presented here in the gospel. The first is the people, the Jews, in general. So far from relying on Abrahamic descent, the prophet calls them a brood of vipers! A group whose spiritual performance so far is so miserable that their response, their desire to flee from the wrath to come, is a surprise. They are to move from passive reliance on the insignificance of their claim to be God's people to active works of love and mercy. They are to share food and clothing with those less favored without any question of placing their own needs first. One who can truly do this is on the way to the Kingdom. The rules have never changed.

The response was shocking. The priests and rabbis had taught the people to rely on the promises to Abraham as absolute, and certain to be fulfilled in them. The idea of abandoning reliance on the specialness -- the superceding -- of the Jews over the rest of humanity, and instead assuming and manifesting the character of God was new. And terrifying.

The next two groups, in descending order, were a deliberate surprise. Tax collectors. Soldiers. Open sinners, despised by the alleged righteous. They too have been called by the Spirit. AND THIS IS BEFORE THE BAPTISM OF THE SPIRIT, WHICH IS A SEPARATE, FINAL EVENT, BESTOWING POWER AND SUPERNATURAL GIFTS UPON THE FAITHFUL RIGHTEOUS WHO HAVE ESCHEWED SINS BY THEIR LIFE IN THE SPIRIT.

The tax collectors too have heard the initial promptings of the Spirit. Their duty is not yet to leave their roles. Their starting-point is that they are to charge just taxes and live within those parameters. A new idea.

For the soldiers, one might have expected much more, since the great prophet has already branded the Jews as a whole as a brood of vipers, whose spiritual response is unexpected, given who they are. The soldiers are a violent lot, as everyone knew. They were to be feared. If they didn't outright violently rob you of your money, they might simply accuse you of crimes and extort the money from you. The prophet goes further, however. He lays their violence and extortion to a deeper problem, their malcontent attitude toward their wages. They apparently believed their actions were justified, given what they were paid for risking their lives. John tells them that to avoid the wrath to come, they must not only make an outward change, but be willing to accept an attitude adjustment.

THESE ARE STARTING POINTS, AND SHOW US HOW THE SPIRIT'S POWER GROWS IN A LIFE THAT RESPONDS. THE FIRST STEPS ARE SMALL BASIC ONES. LATER, AS THE GOSPEL CONTINUES, WE SEE THAT THE ISSUES BECOME INTENSE. ONE MUST BE WILLING TO GIVE UP LIFE ITSELF FOR GOD OR FOR ANOTHER PERSON AS THE SITUATION CALLS FOR IT.

One suspects these answers, long remembered, were far more shocking to the hearers live than they are to us centuries later. Who could have expected that a nation that considered itself assured by God of salvation would have such hard, blunt responses from God's agent? And remember, that under the Spirit's conviction, the hearers, regardless of who they were, were convinced they were listening to God's agent. Or that basic motivating factors in their entire mode of life would be attacked? Or that they would be told these must be given up at all costs, lest they be cast into the fire!

Now the evangelist is ready, with John, to deal with his actual announcement. Because, you see, John had an announcement. And everyone knew it. And was waiting for it. The only thing is, despite the nation-wide discussion, almost no one guessed correctly what the announcement was going to be.

John's uncanny powers, especially the conviction that fastened upon anyone in his presence (it even included the most powerful of the Jewish kings), and his uncanny ability to read the secrets of his hearers, led to the obvious reason the multitudes came to see and hear for themselves. The 490 years of Daniel 9 were at an end. Had the Messianic King, this strange man with strange powers, suddenly appeared?

Possessed by the Holy Spirit as no other man had ever been, and with representatives of the entire nation from the mightiest to the lowliest before him, John on a solemn occasion that all understood was to be the moment of his special announcement about himself and his mission, stood up before the assembled multitude to give them a clearer perception of where he was taking them and why.

By this point John had already shown us what a TRUE prophet does, and what a TRUE prophet expects in the matter of revival, repentance, and REFORMATION! (This is far removed from the false revival now so far advanced in the modern Church!) Identified by Jesus Christ as the greatest of the prophets, we do well to take heed to John's methods and message.

As the people were in expectation, and all men questioned in their hearts concerning John, whether perhaps he were the Christ,

John answered them all,

"I baptize you with water

But he who is mightier than I is coming

The thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie!

He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit

And with fire! Luke 3:7-17

The gospel narrative is clear on this. The reformation for which John called was preparatory to a deeper baptism. It comes as no surprise that BOTH the water baptism of repentance and the Spirit baptism of Power came at the same moment for the Savior. Not so with all other men.

Christ's grace, won by His death, imposes upon us a far greater law than the Ten Commandments or the entire Law or Moses. The Law of Self-Sacrificing Love encompasses all things, LARGE AND SMALL, and is unrelenting. Only in the power of the Spirit can sinful human nature can a believer even CONTEMPLATE developing a character like that of Christ, even while possessing an unrelentingly selfish human nature.

By the use of popular and widely-known false prophets, Satan has succeeded in bringing disrepute upon the concept of prophecy among non-believers. (The standard suspects, for instance David Koresh.)

And through ignorance of the actual tests the Spirit has set down, most believers have and will fall into line with anything that looks supernatural.

This idea -- making the obviously supernatural a test -- is a fatal mistake. SATAN IS THE PRINCE OF THE POWERS OF THE AIR. THE ANTICHRIST WILL WORK SIGNS AND WONDERS TO CONVINCE THE WORLD TO FOLLOW HIM. HIS RISE COMES "BY THE ACTIVITY OF SATAN," the Apostle Paul tell us. Just as the Two Witnesses will revive the power of world prophecy, and bring us to the days of Moses and Aaron or Elijah and Elisha, wonder-workers all, the Antichrist will call fire down from heaven to mimic the power of Elijah in presenting the true test between Yahweh and Ba'al.

If left unchecked, this would give Satan an advantage so powerful as to be completely unfair. People will naturally believe their eyes, when true supernatural events are shown before them. Revelation brands these miracles by the Antichrist as "deceitful" because their purpose is to lie, to deceive. The Two Witnesses, however, exercise far greater power, undermining and finally collapsing Satan's claims through the Antichrist. In the end the masses will believe the Antichrist and follow him rather than the Two Witnesses not because of overwhelming evidence but for one reason, always true, always present, so absolute that it is a rule:

TRUE PROPHETS ANNOY, ANGER, ENRAGE MEN WHO LOVE THEIR SINS AND DO NOT WANT TO LEAVE THEM

By contrast, the line of FALSE prophets in the Old Testament (a line just as clear as the line of true prophets in classical prophecy) followed a pattern, always true, always present, so absolute that it, too, is a rule:

FALSE PROPHETS SOOTHE MEN, ENCOURAGE THEM IN THEIR SINS, AND ALWAYS PROMISE THINGS THE SINFUL WANT TO HEAR

Oh, you may hear about "REVIVAL" among false prophets of a Christian ilk. (There are many other kinds of false prophecy, as we shall shortly discuss.) But REVIVAL will never require a change in lifestyle of the masses of the sects who believe themselves sufficiently righteous, and are using Christ's perfect righteousness as a cloak to cover their ongoing sinful practices. The sins you will hear about are abortion, homosexuality, liberalism, evolutionary teaching, communism, etc. IN OTHER WORDS, THE SINS OF "THEM" NOT THE SINS OF THE "US" TO WHOM THE FALSE PROPHETS ARE SPEAKING.

These so-called "CHRISTIAN" prophets so immensely popular today (we will look at them closely) instead predict masses coming into the Church via a great revival. A turning of the United States to Christ (by which they mean the political agenda of their own sects), increased curses on the wicked (the "them" of false prophecy). These massive accessions to these sects, predicted by their false prophets, are a prime example of how false prophets always promise things the sinful want to hear. In massive conventions the massed followers break out in applause and hallelujahs as the false prophets, week by week, month in and month out, year by year, continue to predict complete triumph for the "us" who need no repentance over the "them" who are the accursed sinners.

But wait! Unfettered abortion, used as mass birth control for a sexual society out of control can't be good. China's antichrist government policies aren't good, surely. Or its one child and kill the second policy. Or its attempt to control and undermine the proclamation of Christ's gospel. What about that? And while it's true that the false prophets only denounce the sexual profligacy of GAY sex, but still, does that make gay baths and orgiastic behavior OK?

Of course not. That leads to another rule, of course,

SOME OF WHAT THE FALSE PROPHETS TEACH IS TRUE, SINCE ALL DECEPTION DEPENDS ON CONTAINING

A LARGE MEASURE OF TRUTH

Which, of course, leads us to another well-known rule:

EVERY HALF-TRUTH IS A LIE. FALSE PROPHETS (EVEN NON-CHRISTIAN ONES) ARE EXPERTS AT TEACHING HALF TRUTH

We will soon look at a series, names, organizations, sects, that are leading out in the great false revival now so far advanced, and of which so many are oblivious. IN DOING SO, WE WILL COME BACK TO THESE BASIC RULES REPEATEDLY.

But FIRST, let's turn to NON-Christian prophets, and the coat of many colors that is false prophecy. It is far larger and more pervasive than you realize, reader!

In the interest of keeping each section short, we'll go on to Osama bin Ladin, prophecy in Islam, the great false revival in Islam, and the implications of the death of a great false prophet. And how will Oprah Winfrey get into all that mix?

READ ON IN PART 2

[Gerr]

Gerry Cabalo,

Your right the Bible can't get any plainer that the texts you cited have NOTHING to do with an Investigative Judgment.

NASB95 | Dt 13:14 then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. If it is true and the matter established that this abomination has been done among you,

NIV84 | Dt 17:4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel,

Can't spell it out any clearer than that!!!

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None of those texts say God is going to hold an investigative judgment prior to the Second Coming.

ESV | 2 Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Can't give what a person is due without investigating what he has done. Plain and simple!!!

Deuteronomy texts use the word "investigate" but it is not talking about God doing the investigating.

Here are examples of God doing the investigating:

NRSV | Ge 18:20 Then the LORD said, “How great is the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah and how very grave their sin! 21 I must go down and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me; and if not, I will know.”

ESV | Da 7:9-10 “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat... the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

ESV | Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

ESV | Mt 22:11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment.

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The Revelation texts use the word judgment but these texts are talking about the Judgment after the Second Coming.

God judges the wicked "out of the books" of record, just as He also does the righteous. Can't give everyone "his due" without thoroughly investigating the books. Plain and simple.

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Daniel chapter seven is not talking about a judgment prior to the Second Coming either. Nor does it even infer their is an investigation as part of this judgment.

Of course it does. The judgment scene in Dan 7:9-10 takes place BEFORE the Son of Man receives His dominion from the Father in Dan 7:13-14 and shares with the saints in 7:27. Plain and simple.

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You are also trying to string texts together that have nothing to do with each other in regard to an "IJ". This is the sloppiest use of stringing texts together and is the farthest stretch to make a point. It just doesn't cut it Gerry.

If you can't recognize the common thread in all these texts, then nobody can help you.

[BobRyan]

Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment?

I have never seen this term used in the Bible?

Is this a concept? If so where is the Biblical backing for this concept?

[miz3]

Gentlemen,

Again, the Deuteronomy texts are not refer to God and His own process. These texts are clearly for "finite" humans and not for an "infinite" God. Duh!

Like I said you stretch these texts beyond any realism whatsoever.

Are you telling me that Genesis 18:20 that God was ignorant about what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah? Come on! This is like a parent who already knows what is up and asks the child, "what are you doing" (like with Adam and Eve in the garden). Such expressions are by God (our Parent) are not "investigative judgments", they are not even investigations. The parent already knows what's up and is there to punish the child (God there to punish Sodom and Gomorrah).

2Corinthians 5:10; Daniel 7; Revelation 20:12 are all texts that you keep repeating but they have nothing to do with an investigation. They have only to do with Judgment where the Judge cites the guilty one's crimes (books opened) and pronounces the punishment on the guilty.

Again, this is a Duh!

You are reading things into God's Word which is blasphemous let reveal your extremely flawed logic.

Matthew 22:11 read carefully! The king was not investigating his guests, that would have been rude. The king was greeting His guests and noticed a person not wearing the correct clothes so without calling witnesses or investigating the man in any way shape or form the King pronounced judgment and the man was executed.

Daniel chapter 7, Jesus received the Kingdom from God at His ascension in Acts. That is long before 1844. He even told Pilate that at the very moment of His interrogation that He was already a King. The Kingdom was already His because Revelation 13:8 states that this is the Lamb slain from before the earth was made. Duh!

Plain and simple.

This ground has been plowed before and you keep coming back to it. It failed before and fails again. No matter how many times you go over it, it will still be WRONG!

[Kevin H]

miz3: in reguards to your last post about Deut. yes you have a point however God is not like those among the Pharicees who put burdens on the people that they don't carry. God's laws are a reflection of his character.

Yes, God does know everything, but he is open with how he is dealing with the Great Controversy. This is what is central in the Investagative Judgment. As what was mentioned in my friend's e-mail:

But let's take this occasion, before moving to the momentous events of the past few months, to speak to how God protects and sustains His servants. The purpose of God's leading is always to lead us to Christ and our eternal salvation. In that process, the suffering that has resulted from sin is used by God to our spiritual advantage.

"To whom much is given, much is required." Job, the tenth king of Edom and the original giant of faith, expressed accurately that he understood that what happens is ultimately in the hands of God. (Satan is an entirely dependent being, whose actions only serve to illustrate the life-giving qualities of God's love, and that sin by its nature is self-destructive. Nothing the demons do has ever gone outside the will of God or limited God's absolute sovereignty in any way. The ultimate example of this is the death of Christ; the massed demons of hell delighted in pouring out on Christ all the torture and suffering that only His Infinite Nature could endure. Too late they realized that they had completely undermined their own claims of a simple quest for freedom, and that their actions had finally removed every shred of sympathy for them among the unfallen beings of the universe.)

While Satan and his host are still glad to carry out all the suffering they can upon those they capture, we must remember that no independent authority is given them over God's servants. When God uses suffering, as He did with Job, it is for a moral purpose. We are often placed under illness or accident, if, as followers of Christ, we are in danger of losing eternal life by reason of pride or arrogance. In other ways God uses suffering to PRE-EMPT pride in those who have carefully submitted their wills to Him, in order that we may not stray from the path which leads to life. That path is straight, and the gate to it narrow (meaning we have to leave behind our cherished sins). And there are few who find it, Our Lord said. The road that leads to death is broad, and its gate, by contrast, is wide, and multitudes find that road, Jesus said.

As Paul tell us, "We have this treasure in earthen vessels." Pray that we will not soften the message for individuals or groups, and press forward with all strength and speed....

miz3, you seem to want the investigative judgment to be what it is not, and thus you automatically win. We need to prove to you something that we do not believe, we can't do that so you win.

[Gerr]

Gentlemen,

Again, the Deuteronomy texts are not refer to God and His own process. These texts are clearly for "finite" humans and not for an "infinite" God. Duh!

NASB95 | Dt 13:14 then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. If it is true and the matter established that this abomination has been done among you,

NIV84 | Dt 17:4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel,

Can't spell it out any clearer than that!!!

Quote:miz3

None of those texts say God is going to hold an investigative judgment prior to the Second Coming.

ESV | 2 Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Can't give what a person is due without investigating what he has done. No judge in his right mind will will give a verdict first and then try it later! Plain and simple!!!

Originally Posted By: miz3

Deuteronomy texts use the word "investigate" but it is not talking about God doing the investigating.

Here are examples of God doing the investigating:

NRSV | Ge 18:20 Then the LORD said, “How great is the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah and how very grave their sin! 21 I must go down and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me; and if not, I will know.”

ESV | Da 7:9-10 “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat... the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

ESV | Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

ESV | Mt 22:11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment.

So then, since God is omniscient, why was He investigating Sodom & Gomorrah?

[miz3]

Gerry Cabalo,

You have proven how out of touch you are with the Bible.

Only God can cure your blindness, Gerry!

However, thanks for proving that I was correct all along.

[Gerr]

Gerry Cabalo,

You have proven how out of touch you are with the Bible.

Only God can cure your blindness, Gerry!

However, thanks for proving that I was correct all along.

Let him who thinks he stands take heed, lest he fall."

Since God is omniscient, why was God investigating Sodom & Gomorrah?

Why the judgment court scene in Dan & Rev with the books open?

[Gustave]

The Investigative judgement is simply the determination each one gets immediately after death...

...At the Particular Judgement / it is then determined if we lived up to the light ( graces God gave us ).

...One thing I would agree Ellen White taught correctly and that is that Grace isn't a covering for dung.

...The individual must change from the "inside out".

...Hence "works" = the co-operation of us WITH the Grace(s) of God, which indeed are a free unwarranted gift.

[Gerr]

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy."

Happy Sabbath everyone.

[Gary K]

According to that definition I agree with you, but looking deeper into the meaning of the word, I use it in the 3rd sense below: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/condescending

con·de·scend   /ˌkɒndəˈsɛnd/ Show Spelled[kon-duh-send] Show IPA

–verb (used without object)

1. to behave as if one is conscious of descending from a superior position, rank, or dignity.

2. to stoop or deign to do something: He would not condescend to misrepresent the facts.

3. to put aside one's dignity or superiority voluntarily and assume equality with one regarded as inferior: He condescended to their intellectual level in order to be understood.

I have no problem with that meaning of condescending at all when refering to God. I had forgotten it, and it wasn't in the dictionary I used. My bad. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Gerr]

MIZ3: Gentlemen,

Again, the Deuteronomy texts are not refer to God and His own process. These texts are clearly for "finite" humans and not for an "infinite" God. Duh!

ESV | Ge 18:20 Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.”

If investigating the facts before rendering a verdict is not God's own process/method, why did He come down to investigate Sodom & Gomorrah? And why did He even bring TWO other witnesses with Him as He requires human judges to do?

We have already told you more than once that God doesn't do investigations to inform Himself. He does it to inform his creatures. Satan had declared to the universe that God is a liar. Adam & Eve believed that lie and so did 1/3 of the angels of heaven. By laying out everything He does out in the open, God will dispell all questions about His justice, love, and mercy.

MIZ3: 2Corinthians 5:10; Daniel 7; Revelation 20:12 are all texts that you keep repeating but they have nothing to do with an investigation. They have only to do with Judgment where the Judge cites the guilty one's crimes (books opened) and pronounces the punishment on the guilty.

Again, this is a Duh!

ESV | 2 Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. color:blue]

If He is going to give every man his due based on what he has done, it is very plain that He has to investigate what people have done. Plain and simple.

miz3:

Daniel 7; Revelation 20:12 are all texts that you keep repeating but they have nothing to do with an investigation.

ESV | Da 7:9 “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. 10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened."

According to Daniel, this scene is not a concert.

ESV | Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

And according to John, this is not a library scene.

[miz3]

Gery Cabalo,

In Genesis chapter 18 by your own words,

"We have already told you more than once that God doesn't do investigations to inform Himself. He does it to inform his creatures."

God is not actually "investigating" because He is not searching for info He already knows but like you pointed out in your quote and I too have said, it was to inform Abraham of His Judgment and what He, God, was going to do.

However, quoting this lone incident is not proof of an Investigative Judgment.

2Coninthians chapter 5, states that we all will face God as the Judge. However, it does not say when this Judgment will take place. It does say so that we can all "receive our due" which would indicate a Judgment that takes place after the Second Coming!

Both Daniel chapter 7 and Revelation chapter 20 clearly take place after the Second Coming. There is not a hint that these events take place before the Second Coming.

No where in the Bible do we find support for any kind of Generalized Judgment before the Second Coming. We do have individual mini Judgments by God (like Sodom and Gomorrah) happening all the time, but no big Generalized Judgment pre-Advent.

[ClubV12]

I think there is some confusion here over a finding of the court as to guilty or not and then the NEXT phase, the "sentencing phase". Two separate but related issues. At the sentencing phase the books are once again opened, the case (having already been decided) is now reviewed and considered for the appropriate penalty. Not all will suffer the same exact fate, and no doubt Satan's punishment will be the most harsh of all.

[miz3]

ClubV12,

OK, which texts come after the Second Coming and which texts come before the Second Coming?

[ClubV12]

There are many explanations and interpretations of this 1,000 year period that various people believe. In fact there are a wide variety of other beliefs with differing conclusions many of which utililize the same verses to bolster their position! Or use differing verses but arrive at the same conclusion.

Interpretation of scripture, why ARE there so many different conclusions reached when we all read the same bible (or, nearly the same)?

Clearly MANY different groups understand the fundamentals of a "judgement" and the concept of a 1,000 year period. So, what is all the confusion about what it all means?

The answer is pretty simple, I believe only ONE group has a certified messenger from God that allows for a correct interpretation. And that aint Joseph Smith! Without direction from the Lord on these issues it is virtually gaurenteed you will arrive at a wrong conclusion.

Of course all of them insist they are led of the Holy Spirit in their interpretation. So, who do you belive, miz3? Is the Holy Spirit speaking directly to you for your "correct" interpretation? Are you arriving at you conclusions based on the testimony of a prophet? Did you arrive at your conclusions solely on your own, or through various web sites and other research material "proclaiming" the truth?

It is my opinion, without divine intervention in some form, the correct biblical interpretations cannot be achieved. So listing bible verses in support of one's position, without accompanying authority, as to the correct interpretation are a waste of time. An exercise in futility.

[Gerr]

Gery Cabalo,

In Genesis chapter 18 by your own words,

"We have already told you more than once that God doesn't do investigations to inform Himself. He does it to inform his creatures."

God is not actually "investigating" because He is not searching for info He already knows but like you pointed out in your quote and I too have said, it was to inform Abraham of His Judgment and what He, God, was going to do.

However, quoting this lone incident is not proof of an Investigative Judgment.

2Coninthians chapter 5, states that we all will face God as the Judge. However, it does not say when this Judgment will take place. It does say so that we can all "receive our due" which would indicate a Judgment that takes place after the Second Coming!

Both Daniel chapter 7 and Revelation chapter 20 clearly take place after the Second Coming. There is not a hint that these events take place before the Second Coming.

Read Dan 7 again. It clearly takes place BEFORE the second coming. That judgment scene is followed and the chapter ends with the saints inheriting the kingdom. Dan 7:26 clearlyt puts this judgment scene during the time of the 4th and last world empire. You are correct about Rev 20.

Quote:

No where in the Bible do we find support for any kind of Generalized Judgment before the Second Coming. We do have individual mini Judgments by God (like Sodom and Gomorrah) happening all the time, but no big Generalized Judgment pre-Advent.

If you accept MINI-JUDGMENTS, any reason why you can't see a MAXI-JUDGMENT like the scene in Dan 7:9-10?

[Gerr]

However, quoting this lone incident is not proof of an Investigative Judgment.

Ah, yes, one swallow does not make a spring. Go to Dan 5 and read the story of Belshazzar and the handwriting on the wall.

The last word was TEKEL - "you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting." Dan 5:27. What does that mean to you?

Quote:

2Coninthians chapter 5, states that we all will face God as the Judge. However, it does not say when this Judgment will take place. It does say so that we can all "receive our due" which would indicate a Judgment that takes place after the Second Coming!

Think it through. You receive your due at or after the second coming, true. But the decision as to who is due eternal life or eternal death HAS to take place BEFORE He comes.

[miz3]

The answer is pretty simple, I believe only ONE group has a certified messenger from God that allows for a correct interpretation. And that aint Joseph Smith! Without direction from the Lord on these issues it is virtually gaurenteed you will arrive at a wrong conclusion.

Of course all of them insist they are led of the Holy Spirit in their interpretation. So, who do you belive, miz3? Is the Holy Spirit speaking directly to you for your "correct" interpretation? Are you arriving at you conclusions based on the testimony of a prophet? Did you arrive at your conclusions solely on your own, or through various web sites and other research material "proclaiming" the truth?

It is my opinion, without divine intervention in some form, the correct biblical interpretations cannot be achieved. So listing bible verses in support of one's position, without accompanying authority, as to the correct interpretation are a waste of time. An exercise in futility.

Thank you ClubV12, you are very enlightening in your above post.

1. I appreciate the fact that you have stated that Ellen White is the one who puts the Investigative Judgment together for SDA.

2. I also appreciate your admission that Ellen White is the Divine Source of this Doctrine because as you cite above she got her information from God.

3. I also appreciate that you believe that Ellen White's inspiration is key to Biblical interpretation.

4. I was not arriving at any conclusions except the three conclusions you have made above. Your conclusions are the very essence of what I have been asserting from the beginning.

5. You are the ONLY ONE with the courage and the HONESTY to state this in your remarks. For this I applaud you mightily!

6. I wish all SDA were willing to admit what you have just admitted to me.

7. I hope that you won't give into pressure now and recant what you have said above or worse yet state you soke badly and therefore created a misunderstanding or that you only playing a trick on me or some sort like that. I am suspicious because some SDA fold when under pressure by other SDA. And some are nasty unChristian and say, ha ha I fooled you. I have seen this before.

8. If you stick by your above claim, I will have the greatest respect for you (maybe you don't want it from me) but you have it nonetheless.

9. It is important for me to be no less honest with you. I do not agree with your Doctrine of an Investigative Judgment. I also do not agree with you that Ellen White was always inspired. I believe that Ellen White was sometimes inspired and at other times she expressed her opinion. In this particular case I think she was expressing her opinion.

10. This however does not change my respect for your stand. We can agree to disagree and hopefully still be brothers in Christ. Although I don't agree with your view on this particular issue, the stand you take is both logical and viable.