Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[miz3]

Woody and Gail,

Let me be very clear.

I do not hate Gerry. I am sure Gerry means well. Look at the passion he exhibits in defense of His belief. I stand up and applaud!

My only issue with Gerry is that he is not careful about expressing. I am not saying that as if I am THE MODEL of good expression. We all have trouble communicating from time to time. Now is a good example of my having trouble expressing goodness to Gerry while at the same time trying to get him to see how "sloppy"(?? trouble finding the right word) he sometimes is.

Gerry, never ever lose you passion for what you truly believe is the Truth! We may disagree about what that is but your passion is a big plus!

miz3

You may quote me about this as much as you like.

[Woody]

Quote:

Gerry, never ever lose you passion for what you truly believe is the Truth! We may disagree about what that is but your passion is a big plus!

miz3

You may quote me about this as much as you like.

Thanks for the permission to quote.

I will.

I like it.

I agree.

I too agree that I disagree with him but agree with you about being agreeable.

In agreement -

Woody

[Gail]

[Gerr]

Gerry,

Your amazing!

2Corinthians 5:10 which you cited, has nothing to do with an Investigative Judgment. It's not even implied, inferred, alluded to, etc. anywhere in that text.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

And how does a judge determine whether one's deeds are good or bad? If you were on trial, would you like the judge to render a verdict without investigating the facts?

Quote:

1Peter 4:17 which you also cited is making a comparison between the righteous and the wicked. Peter is saying only, that if God judges the Righteous, then the wicked will also be judged.

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? ESV

How would one know who is obedient to the gospel and who is not? Just roll the dice? Or follow what God said - INVESTIGATE THOROUGHLY?

It is one thing to say, "I don't see it", or "I don't hear it," and another thing to say, "there is nothing direct, or indirect, inferred, implied, alluded to, etc. that these texts are talking about the "investigative judgment" or even the "principle" of an investigative judgment," just because one can't see it. Are you going to tell Fido that he heard nothing because you didn't hear it? Or tell the eagle there's no fish in the water because your eyesight is not good enough to see it?

Let me ask you again, what judge would render a verdict without investigating the facts?

[Gerr]

Woody and Gail,

Let me be very clear.

I do not hate Gerry. I am sure Gerry means well. Look at the passion he exhibits in defense of His belief. I stand up and applaud!

My only issue with Gerry is that he is not careful about expressing. I am not saying that as if I am THE MODEL of good expression. We all have trouble communicating from time to time. Now is a good example of my having trouble expressing goodness to Gerry while at the same time trying to get him to see how "sloppy"(?? trouble finding the right word) he sometimes is.

Gerry, never ever lose you passion for what you truly believe is the Truth! We may disagree about what that is but your passion is a big plus!

miz3

You may quote me about this as much as you like.

Thanks, I appreciate that. But sorry, I still think it's asinine to make repeated charges that some SDA beliefs are/were derived/based on EGW even after I paraded a long line of Bible students who came to the same conclusion long before EGW came on the scene.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Woody and Gail,

Let me be very clear.

I do not hate Gerry. I am sure Gerry means well. Look at the passion he exhibits in defense of His belief. I stand up and applaud!

My only issue with Gerry is that he is not careful about expressing. I am not saying that as if I am THE MODEL of good expression. We all have trouble communicating from time to time. Now is a good example of my having trouble expressing goodness to Gerry while at the same time trying to get him to see how "sloppy"(?? trouble finding the right word) he sometimes is.

Gerry, never ever lose you passion for what you truly believe is the Truth! We may disagree about what that is but your passion is a big plus!

miz3

You may quote me about this as much as you like.

Thanks, I appreciate that. But sorry, I still think it's asinine to make repeated charges that some SDA beliefs are/were derived/based on EGW even after I paraded a long line of Bible students who came to the same conclusion long before EGW came on the scene.

I hate agreeing with you Gerry. But on this account - I certainly DO.

[miz3]

Let me ask you again, what judge would render a verdict without investigating the facts?

GOD!

God does not need an investigation to know who is and who is not.

God knew before you and I were born whether we are saved or not.

God knows everything! God does not gather info like you and I so that we can know the Truth.

By the way Romans chapter 9 states that God rendered a judgment about Jacob and Esau even before they were born.

"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Romans 9:11-13.

God judged them, even before they were born. No investigation. Just a sentence of guilt or sentence of innocence.

God did not follow your Deuteronomy model with Jacob and Esau.

In addition, God judged these two even before 1844. God already knew that Jacob was saved and belonged to God's family. God also knew and so do all the humans who read Romans chapter nine that Esau is lost.

Neither of these two humans had any investigative judgment. Nor will they because the judgment has already be given. Can you explain that?

[Gary K]

miz3,

I've been lurking in this thread and have four questions to ask you regarding the basis of your theology.

1. Do you believe in the concept of the "Great Controversy"?

2. Have you ever read and understood I Corinthians 6:3 within the context of the "Great Controversy"?

3. Does the entire universe trust God's judgment? By that I mean, are there any questions about God's character anywhere in the universe with respect to the charges Satan has made against Him and His law? Does everyone accept what God says at face value and never question, or have even slight doubts about, Him? I'm not talking about just here on earth, but throughout all the rest of the inhabited planets in the universe too.

4. Do any Christian's have any doubts about what has happened here on earth? If they do, will God just forcibly wipe those doubts out at the second coming?

[teresaq]

God also did not need to set up the sanctuary and its system in the wilderness with the Israelites, but they needed it, as do we. We also need the "investigative judgment", "the books" that will be opened, as we are told that we will be judging even angels.

1 Corinthians 6:3

Know ye not that we shall judge angels?

God doesn't have to do any of that but is condescending to let us all in on why the lost are lost. He could say, "just trust me" but instead everything has been recorded and during the time that we "reign" we will

Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

No, God doesn't need to do anything He does for us, but we do need it because we are neither God nor all-knowing, if we are to be free thinking individuals. That's how I understand it anyway. Then again the whole 2300 days, 1844 thing makes sense to me, but it doesn't seem to make sense to you or some others.

[ClubV12]

God came PERSONALLY to inspect and verify the sins of Sodom before it's destruction!

Did He need to? Of course not. So why did He? Because He often acts and does things that in the realm of OUR understanding, for our benefit, not His.

Thus, He asked Adam who told him he was naked!

The Judgement is for all created beings to make sure there is no question about the facts.

[teresaq]

While I was typing someone else had similar thoughts and preceeded me. lol

[miz3]

teresaq(sda),

You realize that Revelation 20 while clearly demonstrating a Judgment in which it appears we are involved in, is not the "investigative judgment".

[Gary K]

teresaq(sda),

You realize that Revelation 20 while clearly demonstrating a Judgment in which it appears we are involved in, is not the "investigative judgment".

I'm not teresaq(sda), but I do have a comment on what you said here.

All moral judgement is investigative in nature. You cannot have just judgement without investigating the situations, facts, and motives in play. It's impossible.

[teresaq]

Yes, lol. I thought my preceding statement clarified that, but perhaps not. :)

[BobRyan]

teresaq(sda),

You realize that Revelation 20 while clearly demonstrating a Judgment in which it appears we are involved in, is not the "investigative judgment".

On the contrary - it is a second one (if not a third one). It too is based on books of record.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

Let me ask you again, what judge would render a verdict without investigating the facts?

GOD!

God does not need an investigation to know who is and who is not.

Hence the reference to the "myriads and myriads" in the court when "the court sat and the books were opened".

Daniel 7's investigative judgment is not to help God "figure something out".

in Christ,

Bob

[Gary K]

God doesn't have to do any of that but is condescending to let us all in on why the lost are lost. He could say, "just trust me" but instead everything has been recorded and during the time that we "reign" we will

I would agree with all but the "condescending" part. God isn't being condescending. He's clearing His own name by making sure we all understand, without a single doubt, that He has been honest and just in all His dealings with sin and sinners. The Devil made some very deceptive charges against God and the only way to dispel the doubts those charges created is to put all the facts in front of everyone.

This idea that the purpose of the investigative judgment is to keep people out of heaven is a huge lie. It's not about us and what we have done. It's about God, His character, and making sure sin will never rise again. The universe must trust God implicitly or all the pain, suffering, and death--the results of sin--will have been for nothing as sin will rise again out of someone once again doubting God's judgment and character.

[BobRyan]

2 Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Gerry,

Your amazing!

2Corinthians 5:10 which you cited, has nothing to do with an Investigative Judgment. It's not even implied, inferred, alluded to, etc. anywhere in that text.

In 2Cor 5 it is specifically the record of "deeds done in the body" that are being accounted for - "whether they be good or evil".

Your wild claim that this has nothing to do with the accounting for actual historic deeds recorded - deeds done historically "in the body" - whether they be good or evil... is without support in fact.

Dan 7

9 ""I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.

10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.

And of course we then have Romans 2:4-16.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

Let me ask you again, what judge would render a verdict without investigating the facts?

GOD!

God does not need an investigation to know who is and who is not.

God knew before you and I were born whether we are saved or not.

God knows everything! God does not gather info like you and I so that we can know the Truth.

SDAs do not teach that the Investigative Judgment is for God to learn anything. I thought you already knew this. That is an objection usually brought up against the IJ by people who haven't studied it.

God is not the only one involved in the Judgment. See Daniel 7 and 8 as well as Rev. 4 & 5.

[teresaq]

Which all makes it quite condescinding to me. God doesn't have to justify anything He does, but He chooses to for our sakes.

But you are free to disagree with my assessment. :)

[John317]

...God doesn't have to justify anything He does, but He chooses to for our sakes.

Excellent and important point.

God could simply command everyone in the universe to accept His decisions and keep His reasons for making His decisions to Himself, but God isn't like that. He wants intelligent worship given freely on the basis of love and admiration, not because it is forced. Forced worship is what Satan wants.

[miz3]

I've been lurking in this thread and have four questions to ask you regarding the basis of your theology.

1. Do you believe in the concept of the "Great Controversy"?

2. Have you ever read and understood I Corinthians 6:3 within the context of the "Great Controversy"?

3. Does the entire universe trust God's judgment? By that I mean, are there any questions about God's character anywhere in the universe with respect to the charges Satan has made against Him and His law? Does everyone accept what God says at face value and never question, or have even slight doubts about, Him? I'm not talking about just here on earth, but throughout all the rest of the inhabited planets in the universe too.

4. Do any Christian's have any doubts about what has happened here on earth? If they do, will God just forcibly wipe those doubts out at the second coming?

1. Yes, I believe in the concept of the "Great Controversy". However, I may view it differently then most others. Unlike many others I believe the "Great Controversy" is really an inward war. That is a war inside at the very core of what it means to be human. Our initial position is that the "sinful nature" (see Paul in Romans) is our master. As such we are forced to do its bidding. Then because Jesus Christ bought us with a great Price, God claims ownership of us. As our Owner, God comes in to us (work of the Holy Spirit) and begins to clean house so that we do His bidding now. As Romans chapter 7 eloquently portrays the human is torn apart because the sinful nature fights back. We are now caught in a titanic struggle for control of our nature (us). Leaving the story there: this is the Great Controversy.

That's internal. However, the internal cannot help but spill over into the outside. That is why we see group entities mirroring the winners and loser of the inner war. As sides are chosen to varying degrees the war spills sometimes into actual bloodshed on the outside. (martyrs burnt at the stake for example). Obviously in this war the Devil and his minions are on the side of the sinful nature and do everything they can to see that the sinful nature kicks God out of the person's life.

That's a "nutshell" view of how I see the Great Controversy.

2. If you mean we will judge Satan and the evil minions, yes, I agree we will be involved. However, I see that happening after the 2nd Coming and not before.

3. I am aware of what Ellen White says about this. However, I find no Biblical evidence for this. My personal view is that the unfallen universe has demonstrated its love and loyalty to God. I don't believe they ever had doubts and if they did (as Ellen White says they did, they do not now have any doubts after the cross). So there are no present doubts.

As to earth, I believe God's people my have curiosities but they do not have doubts. You cannot trust something completely when there is even the tiniest of doubt. Your trust goes only so far as the level of your doubt. God demands now on this earth for us to trust Him completely, not 60%, or 80%, but 100%! You cannot trust 100% and have doubts.

The wicked they hate Him anyway no matter what the evidence says.

4. I think Christians have lacks of understanding of why God does this or does that. But God's true people will not doubt Him no matter what it looks like. That is what trust is all about.

5. Our first parents failed the test because they had "doubts". Those "doubts" led them (EVE certainly) to disobey God. "Doubts" always lead to sin.

Those who TRUST God will have not doubts even when they do not have all the info. Adam and Eve should have TRUSTED God even though they did not have all the info.

Thus, an Investigative Judgment is not needed.

[miz3]

Quote:

riginally Posted By: miz3

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Gerry

Let me ask you again, what judge would render a verdict without investigating the facts?

GOD!

God does not need an investigation to know who is and who is not.

John317,

I know you have covered this ground before. I was merely responding to Gerry's statement because his statement does imply that God is doing this "thing" because He is "investigating".

You correctly point out that this "thing" is not for God to "investigate anything".

There is a different purpose.

[Gerr]

miz3

Gerry: Let me ask you again, what judge would render a verdict without investigating the facts?

miz3: GOD!

God does not need an investigation to know who is and who is not.

Gerry: I am NOT God, that's why I need it. And so will a lot of other people!

Quote:

God knew before you and I were born whether we are saved or not.

God knows everything! God does not gather info like you and I so that we can know the Truth.

And I don't! If I were to meet Hitler and Stalin in heaven, I want to know why or how! And if were to meet in heaven a minister I know who cheated on his wife during a good part of his ministry and who has now divorced his wife leaving her in dire straights and marry someone he carried an adulterous relationship with for 7 yrs, I'd like to know why or how. And if HMS Richards or some other saints I know wound up in hell, I want to know how or why!

Ditto Jacob & Esau! I want to know how fair that was!

[miz3]

Gerry,

That means you don't TRUST GOD!

Is that the ground you want to stand on?