teresaq Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Originally Posted By: teresaq Soooo, are you saying all three were incarnated? You can see my confusion here, right? "IN CHRIST" yes. "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". God the Father was NOT Incarnated NOR was God the Holy Spirit Incarnated... ...God the Son ( the Eternal Christ ) was 'sent'. ...Only God the Son was Incarnated. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Moderators Gerr Posted May 16, 2011 Moderators Posted May 16, 2011 Jesus said a spirit does NOT have FLESH and bones; Luke 24: 37-39.... ...And Hebrews 1:14 says angels are ministering SPIRITS. ...Angels appear as whatever God wants them to appear as. ...And if an angel appearing as a man or woman removed all it's cloths. ...Yes, I'm sure it would look to us as if it had a rectum. Ellen White said Satan had "FLESH" prior to his ejection from heaven..... So if that's how Satan appeared or was shown to her,[/i] where's the beef? Again, you are nitpicking about nothing. Grasping at straws. Since you seem to know something about SDAs & EGW, I wonder if you are a former Adventist? If so, what's your beef? Quote
Gustave Posted May 17, 2011 Author Posted May 17, 2011 So if that's how Satan appeared or was shown to her, where's the beef? Quote
Gustave Posted May 23, 2011 Author Posted May 23, 2011 Simply a bump as this thread incepted the other one dealing with the same topic. Quote
Gustave Posted September 4, 2011 Author Posted September 4, 2011 RESOLVED Adventists don't agree with the Creed because the creed condemns anyone.... ...Who suggests that Christ could have mutated from perfect God to sinner. QUESTION: Does the Creed ( Catholic and Orthodox Christian statement of faith ) systematize Sacred Scripture? ANSWER: Yes, Absolutely! Sacred Scripture: Ephesians 1,10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out EVERYTHING in conformity with the PURPOSE of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory Ephesians 1,9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he PURPOSED in Christ 2 Timothy 1,8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the GOSPEL according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, WHICH WAS GIVEN US in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel So God purposed salvation via Christ, BEFORE the world was even created... ...Does God fail in His purposes? let's see. Job 36,5 God is mighty, but despises no one; he is mighty, and firm in his purpose Job 42,2 I know that you can do all things; NO purpose of yours can be thwarted Psalm 33,11 But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through ALL generations Proverbs 19,21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, BUT it is the LORD’s purpose that prevails Isaiah 14,24 The LORD Almighty has sworn, “Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, AND as I have purposed, so it will happen Ok, so far the Bible has said that our salvation was ASSURED in Christ BEFORE the world was even created... ...Which means Christ was the Christ, ETERNALLY. ..."Eternal Son" - now where have we heard that before? So, we know the purpose of God NEVER fails because God is not "conditional", God simply IS... ...Of course we have additional Sacred Scripture to back this up. Zeph 3,5 The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will NOT do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame So Scripture, long prior to the Incarnation of God states that God will NOT sin... ...Did "God" inspire that Scripture or what it just some simpleton Jew w/ a beard. ...Who was able to slip in a windy that made it into the Bible? We can read the Prophet Isiah where he clearly says that God will eventually come AND "save"... ...This is a very direct promise - very easy to understand. Isaiah 35,4 Say to the fainthearted: Take courage, and fear not: behold your God WILL bring the revenge of recompense: God himself WILL come and WILL save you. Then shall the eyes of the blind be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.Then shall the lame man leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb shall be free: for waters are broken out in the desert, and streams in the wilderness Jesus Mother and Father bring Him to the Temple as an infant... ...So that it could be done for Him "according to the law". ...Siemon observes the Baby Jesus and is told by the Holy Spirit THAT Jesus is 'The Christ'! Luke 2,25 And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him. And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord. And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; Because my eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples Amazing discovery! Simeon just said the Holy Spirit told him the baby he was holding in his arms... ...WAS the One, the ONLY 'Christ OF the Lord'. Joseph was also told Jesus WAS the Christ. Matthew 1,21 And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he SHALL SAVE his people from their sins. Simeon was told by God Himself that he would NOT see death UNTIL he had seen the promised Christ... ...It's obvious that at any point IF Christ had failed He would NOT have been the Christ. ...IN THE FIRST PLACE. The point is that Sacred Scripture says clearly that the old man Siemon could finally die... ...Because he had witnessed 'The Christ'. ...Because God said he couldn't die UNTIL he had seen the Christ. If Christ COULD HAVE sinned and fallen Jesus wouldn't have been the Christ UNTIL He became the Christ... ...Thus forcing Siemon to continue living until the conditional creature christ. ...Actually met the conditions of being the Christ. This is the issue - Ellen White gloated that Christ "could have sinned".... ...& that Christ "could have lost His salvation". Ellen White was SPECIFIC that it was IMPOSSIBLE for Diety to sin and die... ...But possible for Christ to sin and die. ...Ellen was EXPLICIT that whatever the preIncarnate Christ was - was WHAT risked it's FUTURE eternal existence! That right there terminates any foolish arguments suggesting only the "man Christ" was at risk... ...I've already posted that teaching of Ellen's several times. ...But if anyone NEEDS to feast their eyes on it AGAIN, feel free to ask. The Creed is clear that the Eternal Son was always the Christ... ...And that our salvation was "in Him" prior to the world being created. ...Because God does NOT sin ( because God CAN'T sin ). ...It is heretical to say God would do something both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition says God can't do! Psalms 102,12 But thou, O LORD, shall endure for EVER; and thy remembrance unto ALL generations Psalms 102,24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout ALL generations. Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou SHALT endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, AND thy years shall have no end. This is why SDA's and ALL other Adventist groups REJECT the Creed.... ...It's the only affirmation in the creed which violates Ellen's status as a prophet. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 4, 2011 Moderators Posted September 4, 2011 Again, you are nitpicking about nothing. Grasping at straws. Since you seem to know something about SDAs & EGW, I wonder if you are a former Adventist? If so, what's your beef? Good question. Be nice to have a straight answer, wouldn't it? I know a partial answer: Gustave is Roman Catholic. Never been SDA. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 4, 2011 Moderators Posted September 4, 2011 Gustave, the SDA church cares absolutely nothing about the Creeds, never has and never will. It is against our principles. We wouldn't support them even if we agreed with them. We've discussed this topic many times before over the last year or so. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gustave Posted September 4, 2011 Author Posted September 4, 2011 Again, you are nitpicking about nothing. Grasping at straws. Since you seem to know something about SDAs & EGW, I wonder if you are a former Adventist? If so, what's your beef? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 4, 2011 Moderators Posted September 4, 2011 Adventists don't agree with the Creed because the creed condemns anyone.......Who suggests that Christ could have mutated from perfect God to sinner. SDAs believe Christ could have fallen because He was a free moral agent and the temptations were real. The temptations weren't real if there was absolutely no way that Christ could have chosen to sin. It would make a mockery of Christ's experience in coming to this earth if He couldn't possibly have failed. The Bible does not say anywhere that Christ couldn't have failed the tests. If Christ couldn't fail, then they were't similar to the tests that Adam experienced. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gustave Posted September 4, 2011 Author Posted September 4, 2011 Gustave, the SDA church cares absolutely nothing about the Creeds, never has and never will. It is against our principles. We wouldn't support them even if we agreed with them. We've discussed this topic many times before over the last year or so. Your list of fundamental beliefs are a "creed".... ...The things SDA proselytes "swear to" prior to being dunked in a baptism tub is a creed. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 4, 2011 Moderators Posted September 4, 2011 [quote name="Gustave Again' date=' you are nitpicking about nothing. Grasping at straws. Since you seem to know something about SDAs & EGW, I wonder if you are a former Adventist? If so, what's your beef? Originally Posted By: Gustave That's amazing John317 - you've been saying all along I know nothing about SDAs and EGW......Then Gerry comes along ( at some point ) and says I do. [/quote'] Notice Gerry's words, "You SEEM to know SOMETHING about SDAs and EGW..." I never said you know nothing. I said you obviously haven't read much except anti-SDA and anti-EGW books or websites. Saying you "seem to know something" is not a very strong endorsement of your knowledge. You appear to know more now than you did when you first came on ClubAdventist, but you still don't understand our doctrines, such as the Investigative Judgment, the Three Angels Messages, or the 1888 Message,etc. So while you are writing posts against the SDA church and against EGW, you are still attacking beliefs and people you know comparatively little about. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 4, 2011 Moderators Posted September 4, 2011 Your list of fundamental beliefs are a "creed".......The things SDA proselytes "swear to" prior to being dunked in a baptism tub is a creed. Nonsense. If a church has a list or description of its beliefs, it doesn't make the list a creed. The FB 28 you speak of is subject to change, and church members may disagree with some of those beliefs on the list and still be baptized. Why do you refer to it as "dunked in baptism"? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gustave Posted September 4, 2011 Author Posted September 4, 2011 SDAs believe Christ could have fallen because He was a free moral agent and the temptations were real. Quote
Gustave Posted September 4, 2011 Author Posted September 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave Your list of fundamental beliefs are a "creed".......The things SDA proselytes "swear to" prior to being dunked in a baptism tub is a creed. Nonsense. If a church has a list or description of its beliefs, it doesn't make the list a creed. The FB 28 you speak of is subject to change, and church members may disagree with some of those beliefs on the list and still be baptized. Why do you refer to it as "dunked in baptism"? When you make that list required belief it is absolutely a creed... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 4, 2011 Moderators Posted September 4, 2011 Saying Jesus wasn't the "Eternal Christ" / AKA God is most serious Gerry... ...It's hardly grasping at straws. SDAs do believe that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God. We also believe Christ is God in the highest sense, the second person of the Godhead. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Gustave, the SDA church cares absolutely nothing about the Creeds, never has and never will. It is against our principles. We wouldn't support them even if we agreed with them. We've discussed this topic many times before over the last year or so. Your list of fundamental beliefs are a "creed".... ...The things SDA proselytes "swear to" prior to being dunked in a baptism tub is a creed. Good point Gustave! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 4, 2011 Moderators Posted September 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 SDAs believe Christ could have fallen because He was a free moral agent and the temptations were real. Simply more heretical teachings John... ...Christ was / is free to do ANYTHING except cease to be and continue to be God. ...But again, this is why ALL Adventist groups promulgate it. I don't care what you think is heretical, Gustave. You could say every belief of the SDA church is heresy and it wouldnt' mean a hill of beans to me or to the SDA church. We base our doctrines on the Bible, not on church tradition. The Catholic Church believes in the real heresies-- for instance, that Christ is sacrificed in an unbloody sacrifice in the Mass. The Catholic Church also believes that Church tradition, church councils and papal encyclicals are authoritative. We reject them all, completely and absolutely. We stand on the Word of God. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gustave Posted September 4, 2011 Author Posted September 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave [quote name='Gerry Again' date=' you are nitpicking about nothing. Grasping at straws. Since you seem to know something about SDAs & EGW, I wonder if you are a former Adventist? If so, what's your beef? Originally Posted By: Gustave That's amazing John317 - you've been saying all along I know nothing about SDAs and EGW......Then Gerry comes along ( at some point ) and says I do. Notice Gerry's words, "You SEEM to know SOMETHING about SDAs and EGW..." I never said you know nothing. I said you obviously haven't read much except anti-SDA and anti-EGW books or websites. Saying you "seem to know something" is not a very strong endorsement of your knowledge. You appear to know more now than you did when you first came on ClubAdventist, but you still don't understand our doctrines, such as the Investigative Judgment, the Three Angels Messages, or the 1888 Message,etc. So while you are writing posts against the SDA church and against EGW, you are still attacking beliefs and people you know comparatively little about. [/quote'] Well, if I know enough of your beliefs that members of your own denomination believe I might be a former member I obviously know enough to push them into asking that question. Like I've told you more than once John, I do my own research - that's why you not seen my arguments on an anti-sda website. As for Ellen White I know enough about 1844 to easily prove that Ellen White lied about it.... ...And later had to back-track on that issue. You also said I didn't have any evidence Ellen White and the pioneers of SDAism promulgated... ...That God, Michael the archangel & Lucifer have the identical organ humans do that suppositories are pushed up into either. ...Your only defense against the facts was deleting some of my posts. That only works here John - it doesn't appear to work over at CA. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 4, 2011 Moderators Posted September 4, 2011 ...As for Ellen White I know enough about 1844 to easily prove that Ellen White lied about it.......And later had to back-track on that issue. If you can do it, do it now. If you are right, I will be the first to reject her as a prophet of God. What is your evidence? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gustave Posted September 4, 2011 Author Posted September 4, 2011 I don't care what you think is heretical, Gustave. You could say every belief of the SDA church is heresy and it wouldnt' mean a hill of beans to me or to the SDA church. We base our doctrines on the Bible, not on church tradition. The Catholic Church believes in the real heresies-- for instance, that Christ is sacrificed in an unbloody sacrifice in the Mass. The Catholic Church also believes that Church tradition, church councils and papal encyclicals are authoritative. We reject them all, completely and absolutely. We stand on the Word of God. My issue is that the Bible ( forget about Sacred Tradition ) says that promulgating Christ could have sinned is heretical. When Jesus, prior to His Cross can say "I AM the Resurrection and THE LIFE" that should terminate the question for you. Quote
Gustave Posted September 4, 2011 Author Posted September 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave ...As for Ellen White I know enough about 1844 to easily prove that Ellen White lied about it.......And later had to back-track on that issue. If you can do it, do it now. If you are right, I will be the first to reject her as a prophet of God. What is your evidence? I will start a thread John... ...And I look forward to you being there. Quote
Gustave Posted September 4, 2011 Author Posted September 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave Saying Jesus wasn't the "Eternal Christ" / AKA God is most serious Gerry... ...It's hardly grasping at straws. SDAs do believe that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God. We also believe Christ is God in the highest sense, the second person of the Godhead. Ellen White said it was impossible for "God" to Sin and Die... ...Ellen White said it was possible for Christ to sin and die. ...Ellen White said IF Christ would have sinned God would have removed Christ's CONDITIONAL DIETY. So what was it you said SDA's believed about Christ again? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 4, 2011 Moderators Posted September 4, 2011 ...You also said I didn't have any evidence Ellen White and the pioneers of SDAism promulgated......That God, Michael the archangel & Lucifer have the identical organ humans do that suppositories are pushed up into either. ...Your only defense against the facts was deleting some of my posts. As moderator: If you bring this subject up one more time on this thread, you will be banned and all your posts will be deleted. It is not true, and this is not a place for people to come and dump all their lies. SDAs have never taught such a thing. You are lying when you make such an accusation. Do not bring it up even one more time. Quote: That only works here John - it doesn't appear to work over at CA. What is CA? I know those letters as either Club Adventist or California. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 4, 2011 Moderators Posted September 4, 2011 Ellen White said it was impossible for "God" to Sin and Die... Of course Deity cannot die. Deity is by definition immortal, not subject to death. Originally Posted By: Gustave ...Ellen White said it was possible for Christ to sin and die. Yes, the man Jesus of Nazareth could have sinned. Originally Posted By: Gustave ...Ellen White said IF Christ would have sinned God would have removed Christ's CONDITIONAL DIETY. No, she does not say that Christ the eternal Son of God had "conditional deity." You're confused about this. Why don't you quote the statement by Mrs. White that you are referring to as your evidence? Originally Posted By: Gustave So what was it you said SDA's believed about Christ again? I said that SDAs believe that Christ is the eternal Son of God and the Second Person of the eternal Godhead. He was God in the highest sense. SDAs believe Christ is "our great God and Savior." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 4, 2011 Moderators Posted September 4, 2011 If God is Ultimate Truth and God sinned it would require that God denied Himself... ...I therefore reject your affirmation as heritical. Since you don't even understand what SDAs believe on this point, it really doesn't matter to me whether you reject it or not. You could reject every single doctrine SDAs hold dear, and it wouldn't matter to me in the least. I would be sorry you don't see the truth, but your rejection of our beliefs won't change anything. You are welcome to discuss our beliefs here, but please do it civilly and thoughtfully. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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