Why Adventists don't agree with the Nicene Creed.

[John317]

...My issue is that the Bible ( forget about Sacred Tradition ) says that promulgating Christ could have sinned is heretical. When Jesus, prior to His Cross can say "I AM the Resurrection and THE LIFE" that should terminate the question for you.

We beg to differ with you about this. That statement by Christ doesn't mean that Jesus could not have sinned.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

Where does the Bible say "that promulgating Christ could have sinned is heretical"?

Please give chapter and verse for such a saying in Holy Scripture.

[John317]

...As for Ellen White I know enough about 1844 to easily prove that Ellen White lied about it....

...And later had to back-track on that issue.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

If you can do it, do it now. If you are right, I will be the first to reject her as a prophet of God.

What is your evidence?

Originally Posted By: Gustave

I will start a thread John...

...And I look forward to you being there.

OK, great. See you there, Gustave. I look forward to seeing what evidence you have. I think I know what your evidence is because you made the same wild claim about a year ago.

[John317]

( forget about Sacred Tradition )

Yes, you bet I will.

Any tradition that contradicts the Protestant Bible is wrong and should be rejected.

[Gustave]

As moderator:

If you bring this subject up one more time on this thread, you will be banned and all your posts will be deleted. It is not true, and this is not a place for people to come and dump all their lies. SDAs have never taught such a thing. You are lying when you make such an accusation.

...CA = "Catholic answers" , it's been around since 1979.

...How long has club adventist been around.

SDA's have a serious problem with slandering other Christian religions and when someone calls them on it...

...It becomes obvious they have serious trouble dealing with the facts.

...Does it seriously compute to you what others think that read the General Conference archive links teaching exactly what you claim never existed?

See you in the new thread I intend to post on 1844 unless you push your button and ban me....

...If so don't worry, I will put it up on C.A. and several other sites.

...Deal with it here or mud yourself up outside of places you control.

[John317]

...If so don't worry, I will put it up on C.A. and several other sites.

Feel free to put it on Catholic Answers if you like. That is fine with me. Maybe they don't mind lies being posted but we do here. If you post valid evidence of what you are saying, it will be welcome. But otherwise, no.

So we won't discuss any more that aspect of what you want to post.

I can see that I can't persuade you through logic not to post it, so I am just going to have to tell you that you cannot do it here. It is completely disrespectful to God and has no basis whatsoever in history.

[John317]

...CA = "Catholic answers" , it's been around since 1979.

...How long has club adventist been around.

Why does this matter? It wouldn't matter if Club Adventist just opened and the Catholic Answers had been around since 1800. It has nothing to do with what is truth, does it? Is that an evidence of truth-- that is has been believed longer or by more people?

[John317]

SDA's have a serious problem with slandering other Christian religions and when someone calls them on it...

...It becomes obvious they have serious trouble dealing with the facts.

Gustave, you came on the Forum last year and the year before that in order to make the same claims and accusations.

Can you show your evidence that SDAs have a serious problem with slandering other Christian religions?

What is your proof of this? I don't mean individuals in the church-- the church is not responsible for what every individual doesn-- but show where the church itself has shown a serious problem with slandering other Christian religions.

Do you have quotes and documentation?

[Gustave]

Feel free to put it on Catholic Answers if you like. That is fine with me. Maybe they don't mind lies being posted but we do here. If you valid evidence of what you are saying, it will be welcome. But otherwise, no.

So we won't discuss any more that aspect of what you want to post.

I can see that I can't persuade you through logic not to post it, so I am just going to have to tell you that you cannot do it here. It is completely disrespectful to God and has no basis whatsoever in history.

[Raphael]

Happy Sabbath,

Whew, reading this entire thread is terribly exhausting and quite daunting for me to participate in... but may I hopefully, add some cooling fresh air to the hazardous heat...

I believe everyone if not almost (got to reread the whole thread again, which is frightening) has correct points.

God is omnipotent and capable of doing anything but chooses never to do evil.

God is capable of evil as His title claims but eternally decides to never do it.

Decision-making and capabilities are two different things, which need no further narrating, right?

The "if" word can only be related to decision-making not capability because being capable is not an 'if', it is a real ability whether it is wielded or not, right?

That leaves decision-making as the only part suitable to exercising the 'if'.

Decision-making has a lot to do with mind & character. If it is of a randomly unstable character then it becomes unpredictable but if it is stable it becomes predictable, right?

The big 'if' rehearsed here (parts of this thread) does not take into account or (perhaps, mention) God's character that we know. The big 'if' here (parts of this thread) is discussed so hypothetically, as in secular studies.

If God's character is taken into account together with His awesome abilities, this makes Him into an eternally unbeatable foe, which coincidentally He claims to be...

Now, if He comes around into any match with this unbeatable claim, character and omnipotent power punch, what are the chance or percentage of beating Him? Perhaps a slight one percent? or maybe a tinsy 0,00001%?

The whole story of Christ's pain and hurt in His earthly life is 100% protocol because He is eternally unbeatable, as He incidentally claims to be... not even in the slightest way can He be beatable...

What was the purpose of the salvation plan with its pain and death at Calvary? Was it for comparing / competing reasons so that struggling humans would feel if He can, why can't I? We can not and can never be like Jesus... that is why we need Him as our Savior (else we won't need Him). Not only did Jesus fully rely on His Father but He did it without a mediator, unlike as we all do now.

Now, here we are trying to intimate ourselves with Christ to the point of almost no limit...

You know, there are instances in matches where the rounds become staged for the sake of entertainment and not for the most certain of victory.

Do you think God did that too, to make us, spectators feel goood and somehow entertained to win over the sympathies of an audience...?

Or was He unmercifully bent on gaining the most eternally lasting victory?

Back to basics...

Christ came to save and not for a matching or comparing contest.

Inspired words of the Bible and of the Spirit of Prophecies are of inferior human language and expressions, even of comprehension, else there would be no growth upon the Truth and the Light, right?

Citations of the Bible (I'm sure of EGW too) that totally clash into one another are common past knowledge, at least to us who have been brought up in the SDA Truth, so should we make this a stumbling block to ourselves?

God bless us all.

[skyblue888]

Ellen White, June 9 1898

Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope.

Ellen White, GCB 1 Dec 1895

Remember that Christ risked all; "tempted like as we are," he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Jesus would have yielded up his life, we may estimate the value of a soul

Ellen White

The new tomb enclosed Him in its rocky chambers. If one single sin had tainted His character the stone would never have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished

Now, as for Christ having "CONDITIONAL DIETY" you have seen this previously... It is an amazing fact that you continue to mentally operate as if you never have seen it.

Ellen White

Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost WHILE He stood faithful and true to His loyalty. Surrounded with sorrow, suffering, and moral pollution, despised and rejected by the people to whom had been intrusted the oracles of heaven, Jesus could yet speak of Himself as the Son of man in heaven. He was ready to take once more His divine glory when His work on earth was done

Compare that with,

Ellen White, 21MR 418.5

Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the Man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; THAT would have been impossible.

______________________

I have read and re-read these statements with which I have been familiar for many years. Some would have us believe that they contradict each other. It may appear that they contradict each other but it is only an apparent contradiction.

These statements, properly understood, mean that if the man Jesus of Nazareth had fallen under Satan's temptations, he would have sunk and died and the whole human race with him. Jesus the man would have died but not the Christ of God. The Christ of God is larger than the man Jesus of Nazareth. The Christ of God could not sink and die.

So if Jesus the man had been defeated by the enemy, the whole universe of God would have been imperiled but Christ and God would have remained, defeated, but nevertheless still in power, for Divinity cannot die. But the goverment of God would have been imperiled because Satan would have won the contest. By imperiled I mean that the happiness of Heaven and of all the creatures throughout immensity would have be jeopardized. The seeds of rebellion would have spread everywhere and the universe would have destroyed itself and thus Satan would have succeeded in destroying God's creation.

Jesus the man staked his eternal existence meaning that he would not have been resurrected if he had failed. But for the Christ of God to stake his eternal existence cold not have meant that He would have perished for divinity cannot sink and die and yet His eternal existence would have been altered dramatically just as that of the Father and that of the Holy Spirit.

More on this later.

sky

[Raphael]

Hello,

EGW has many interesting statements which contain truths to varying degrees, as all inspired scriptures are to be carefully comprehended as a whole.

For example, She stated that the glory of God on Mount Sinai, which was shown to Moses, 'could' (lots n lots of hypothetical if, could, would n others similar terms) have obliterated Moses, due to Moses' existing sinful nature.

By definition the words if, could, would n so on are "hard to hold on" words because they could very well mean any possibility, even though how insensibly remote may it be. It could be useful in conveying certain points aside the 'practiced' reality (or reality in practice), though.

Now, when we read the book of Job, we find the account of the Prince of Darky Sinful Nature himself, having his greatest nonchalant conversations with God without getting even the slightest bruise... but instead got a great time filling job that he loved...

Not to say that EGW was wrong but that her ifs, coulds, woulds indeed COULD have very well been true, as well.

Blessed Sabbath.

[BobRyan]

The wicked are gathered at the GWT in Rev 20 getting "narry a bruise" only to be tossed into the lake of fire and destroyed.

This is not "proof" that the sinful rebel in the presence of a holy God is not something that the Glory of God tends to consume.

[Gustave]

So if Jesus the man had been defeated by the enemy, the whole universe of God would have been imperiled but Christ and God would have remained, defeated, but nevertheless still in power, for Divinity cannot die. But the goverment of God would have been imperiled because Satan would have won the contest. By imperiled I mean that the happiness of Heaven and of all the creatures throughout immensity would have be jeopardized. The seeds of rebellion would have spread everywhere and the universe would have destroyed itself and thus Satan would have succeeded in destroying God's creation

Where do you get that Skyblue???

...Ellen was crystal clear that Christ would NOT have remained.

..Christ would have been FOREVER GONE! The preIncarnate Christ would have eternally ceased to exist.

That's exactly what she said MULTIPLE times.

[skyblue888]

Impossible, Christ could not sink and die but the man Jesus of Nazareth could. We can't pit a statement against another statement any more than we can pit a passage of Scripture against another passage of Scripture. The Bible explains itself. One passage is explained by another and it is the same with her writings, one statement explains another, not contradict. There can only be apparent contradictions in Holy Writ, in what God has revealed.

"Comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Cor.2:13.

"The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

sky

[John317]

Impossible, Christ could not sink and die but the man Jesus of Nazareth could.

That's right. This is the point that our friend Gustave doesn't appear to grasp. Ellen White is saying that if the man Jesus of Nazareth had chosen to rebel against God, which He could have, then the man Jesus of Nazareth would have ceased to exist. She is not saying God, the pre-incarnate Word, would have ceased to exist. That would be impossible. However, it would have been catastrophic for the entire universe and for the Godhead. We don't know all the details of what this would have meant to the Godhead, but we do know that the Godhead took a great risk in coming here as a man. Essentially God risked everything because of God's love for mankind. Had Jesus of Nazareth failed, all humanity would have been lost, including Enoch, Moses, and Elijah. No wonder Moses and Elijah came to encourage Christ just before His crucifixion!

When Jesus of Nazareth got hungry or tired, it was not God who was hungry and tired.

What we have to understand is that Jesus of Nazareth was a free moral agent and as such He could have chosen to disobey God.

[John317]

Pioneers explicit statements that God had "ALL" the parts and organs of a regular human, AGAIN, then...

What our pioneers, including Ellen White, said is that God the Father has a body and parts. We believe the same thing today. However, you are wrong to suppose this means we believe God's body is exactly like a human being's. For instance, God does not have lungs like ours. God does not require air and oxygen. God does not require food in order to live.

We simply do not know all the details about what God is like in His person, and since God hasn't seen fit to give us these details, it is wrong to conjecture about them. However, we do know from Scripture that God has a body and parts.

Christ, on the other hand, is a man and has a glorified human body just like we will have at the resurrection. But precisely what that body is like, we don't know. For instance, we don't know whether the glorified, immortal bodies are exactly the same anatomically as mortal bodies. That is something we will have to wait to find out, and it's not terribly important, anyway.

[skyblue888]

A big Amen to the your last two posts.

sky :)

[John317]

Thanks, sky. :-)

[Gustave]

Impossible, Christ could not sink and die but the man Jesus of Nazareth could. We can't pit a statement against another statement any more than we can pit a passage of Scripture against another passage of Scripture. The Bible explains itself. One passage is explained by another and it is the same with her writings, one statement explains another, not contradict. There can only be apparent contradictions in Holy Writ, in what God has revealed.

"Comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Cor.2:13.

"The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

sky

Then what would you suggest the following means?

Ellen White, GCB Dec 1, 1895

Remember that Christ risked all; "tempted like as we are," he staked EVEN his own ETERNAL existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption.

Ellen White

Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope

Ellen White, Desire of Ages

Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, BUT for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss

Longacre

IF it were impossible for the Son of God to make a mistake or commit a sin, then His coming into this world and subjecting Himself to temptations were all a farce AND mere mockery. IF it were possible for Him to yield to temptation and fall into sin, then He MUST have risked heaven and His very existence, and EVEN all eternity. That is exactly what the Scriptures AND the Spirit of Prophecy say Christ, the Son of God did do when He came to work out for us a plan of salvation from the curse of sin.

IF Christ "risked all," EVEN His ETERNAL EXISTENCE in heaven, then there was a possibility of His being overcome by sin, and IF overcome by sin, He would have gone into Joseph's tomb and neither THAT tomb nor any other tomb would EVER have been opened. All would have been lost and HE would have suffered "eternal loss," the loss of ALL He ever possessed & His DIVINITY AND His humanity and heaven itself would have been "lost & eternally lost

It was possible for one of the God-head to be lost, and eternally lost - and IF that had happened, and it WAS possible to happen, "God, the Father", would still have remained as the One and only absolute and living God, reigning supreme over all the unfallen worlds, but with all the human race blotted out of existence on this earth.

Ok Skyblue, if Christ risked EVEN His eternal existence in heaven....

...And this risk EXCLUDED His Incarnated human flesh.

...What exactly WAS "IT" that risked it's FUTURE eternal existence in heaven?

You don't even realize that your battleship was sunk long ago do you?

[John317]

...Then what would you suggest the following means?

Ellen White, GCB Dec 1, 1895

Remember that Christ risked all; "tempted like as we are," he staked EVEN his own ETERNAL existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption.

Ellen White

Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope

Ellen White, Desire of Ages

Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, BUT for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss

....if Christ risked EVEN His eternal existence in heaven....

...And this risk EXCLUDED His Incarnated human flesh.

...What exactly WAS "IT" that risked it's FUTURE eternal existence in heaven

Notice that nowhere does Ellen White say that the Pre-existent Christ, the Word of God, would have ceased to exist. God cannot cease to exist. Since the eternal Word is God as verily as the Father is God, it would have been utterly impossible for the Word to cease to exist.

Jesus Christ's falling into sin would have meant that God lost the great controversy with Satan. It would have been proof that Satan was right in his accusations againt God's government.Obviously this would have caused a catastrophic rupture within the Godhead, eternal separation between Christ and the Father. Jesus of Nazareth would have utterly perished along with all mankind. This was the amazing risk that the entire Godhead took because of the love each Person of the Godhead has for the whole human family.

But thank God, that did not happen. Jesus Christ resisted temptation to the point of death. He proved God is right and Satan is a liar. He proved that Adam could have obeyed God and that there is no excuse whatsoever for sin. He proved that with the Holy Spirit in our lives, we also can obey God.

God did this for you and me, Gustave. He risked the loss of the entire universe.

Can you think of any greater love or any way that God could more clearly demonstrate His infinite love for every human being who's ever lived?

I can't.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

You don't even realize that your battleship was sunk long ago do you?

The only battleship that has been sunk is the one in your own imagination. It has been shown over and over again that you are condemning ideas that don't even exist. You are making straw men and then destroying them as if they are the making of Ellen White or the SDA church. But they are neither. They are distortions of what Ellen White and SDA church teach.

[Raphael]

Ellen White, June 9 1898

Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope. =>IF & COULDS... IF WE REMEMBER THE CHARACTER OF THE (TRIO) GODHEAD, INCLUDING THE STRENGTH OR STEADFASTNESS OF THOSE CHARACTERS... THERE ARE NO IFS... THERE ARE NO COULDS... THERE IS ONLY CERTAINTY. FURTHER, HOW CAN ONE PREACH & SPEAK OF (OR EVEN HAVE) ULTIMATE FAITH WITH ALL THIS IFS, COULDS AND OTHER CONDITIONALS...?

Ellen White, GCB 1 Dec 1895

Remember that Christ risked all; "tempted like as we are," he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Jesus would have yielded up his life, we may estimate the value of a soul =>THIS IS JUST TRYING TO SAY HOW GOD LOVES US AND WILL DO THE BEST AVAILABLE THING TO SHOW HIS LOVE... AND JUST AS 'IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE DEITY TO SINK AND DIE, SO WOULD IT BE TO TRULY JEOPARDIZE...' ELLEN WHITE, 21MR 418.5

Ellen White

The new tomb enclosed Him in its rocky chambers. If one single sin had tainted His character the stone would never have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished =>ANOTHER IF SUBJECT PREACHING...

Ellen White

Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost WHILE He stood faithful and true to His loyalty. Surrounded with sorrow, suffering, and moral pollution, despised and rejected by the people to whom had been intrusted the oracles of heaven, Jesus could yet speak of Himself as the Son of man in heaven. He was ready to take once more His divine glory when His work on earth was done =>ANOTHER FORM OF IF PREACHING...

Ellen White, 21MR 418.5

Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the Man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; THAT would have been impossible. =>THIS STATEMENT BY ITSELF IS ALRIGHT...

Note: The 'Switch to Full Reply' button doesn't work. So, couldn't color, bold, italic or even underline... had no choice but to make all my comments in uppercase.

[skyblue888]

So according to some here it was impossible for Jesus to sin. Why did not God make it impossible for any of us to sin then? Are you saying that he had an advantage over us?

sky

[Raphael]

I, too have an interesting IF here, for this moment. Remember how Mary Magdalena almost touch Jesus after His resurrection... IF Mary Magdalena touched Jesus before His self presentation to God the Father... OH, how unimaginable would everything be... IF Christ chose to allowed Mary Magdalena to touch Him before His self presentation to God the Father... OH, what would have happened to this world and universe?

It's so fortunate that there is no playing of chance or dice here with God, even if it comes to chooosing, wouldn't we agree?

What is the meaning of FAITH... is it an optional supplement to Christian character? or is it utter sin to be without...?

Is FAITH a conditional mental state of mind? or a certainty of true defined reality...?

Further... is it by chance that from Adam & Eve down to the multitude of numbers of all their descendants that not even one could pass THE TEST (even with the salvation plan already in effect). It must have been coincidental that it must be the Makers blood to be sacrificed and couldn't do with the holiest of angels, was it not?

There's that song... He never fails... hopefully it never changes to... if He failed... Let's cling to Jesus not only as our Savior but also as our God and accept His stretched-out hand without searching for unnecessary things like:

Why aren't You exactly like us?

Why should You come as an incarnate God with all your trillion to unnumbered years of God knowledge & memory...?

Why should You be so 100% unbeatable with zero chances of being defeated (there is no fun in that in comparison to Hollywood plotted movies...)?

Why can't You win over human sympathy by becoming exactly like other humans?

God bless us all.

[skyblue888]

Jesus did not allow her to touch him because he first had to hear from the Father that His sacrifice was accepted.

What's wrong with that?

sky

[Gustave]

Notice that nowhere does Ellen White say that the Pre-existent Christ, the Word of God, would have ceased to exist.