Why Adventists don't agree with the Nicene Creed.

[Nic Samojluk]

Gustave wrote:

“Can you see where I'm coming from....

...From a Biblical perspective?”

My problem is that I find your answers too long and rather complex. I asked a few simple questions which could have been answered in a simple and direct way. You chose to submit to me a long list of quotations. Could you summarize your answer to a single short paragraph that I can digest in a couple of minutes?

I do agree that Jesus did predict his suffering and death, but he did so towards the end of his ministry at a point in time when it was very clear that the Jewish leaders had determined to reject his claim to the Jewish throne. The experience of Jonah the prophet is evidence that God’s promises and warnings are contingent on human response.

In Luke 1 we find the prediction made by the Angel Gabriel that Mary’s Son would sit on David’s throne. I believe that this represented a real possibility in the event the Jews had elected to receive Jesus as the promised Messiah and their rightful king. God always grants human beings real freedom to choose their destinies.

Do not forget that soon after the people of Israel crossed the Jordan River to take possession of the Promised Land, the Lord asked them to recite a long list of blessings and curses, thus signifying that the future was contingent on their human response.

I believe that this applies to the future of Jesus and the Jewish nation as well. We find in the Old Testament predictions of a glorious future for his people which did never materialized because they chose to reject Jesus as the true Messiah.

[Gustave]

Gustave wrote:

“Can you see where I'm coming from....

...From a Biblical perspective?”

My problem is that I find your answers too long and rather complex.

[shylock]

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4.15.

"When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;" James.1.13

As Bible believers, we have to accept and reconcile both the above verses:

1. Christ was tempted, as we are tempted, by evil

2. God is never tempted by evil

First of all we have to conclude that "God" referred to here, is not Christ, but the Father, to avoid a full contradiction.

Then we of course have to conclude that the reason Christ was tempted, was because of His human nature, that He adopted when being incarnate, as there as no tendency towards temptation in Christ before the incarnation.

Christ received and grew up with degenerated human nature, and through this nature He was tempted, just as all human beings are, but He never gave in to this.

Could Christ have given in to sin? Now that is a hypothetical question, as He did not. But who can dare to say there was no real pressure of temptation being felt by Christ? Who can dare to say to Christ today that He was not tempted, as you and I are every day?

And what is temptation without any pressure, without any real risk? Without any possibility whatsoever to give in? How can we possibly call it temptation if there is nothing whatsoever in us that resonates with the issue at hand? Of course there is no real temptation then, just as God is never tempted.

But it must have been different with Christ, He must have been tempted! If Christ was just as little tempted as God (nothing) then you have to throw out the Bible and all common sense too.

If Christ was never close to even the remotest possibility of giving in, how could He then be said to have been tempted just like you and me? How can there be such a great risk difference between mine and Christ's experience? And if there is, how can Christ ever understand my temptation and my experience?

The issue is then, How close is Christ to me, to identifying with my situation and my challenges today? Is He truly MY Saviour, able to save me? Or was it just a make-believe identification on our part?

So we cannot diminish the temptation of Christ, without taking his humanity away, and we cannot diminish the divinity of Christ either. He is the bridge between the inifinite Source of life and the material and physical world that we live in and depend on...and He had to reach both stations completely, to establish an eternal order that included human beings, the universe and all that exists besides the Godhead. This is the fascinating role of Christ, that He came from above - symbolizing grace and the throne of God - and all the way down to the earth, symbolizing the physical domain subject to law. Christ came with the gifts of grace from God, and subjected Himself to the damnation of the law, including the temptations of the flesh because of the genetics.

So Christ could be and was tempted, as we all are, without sinning, while having sinful flesh, as we all have, because sinful flesh did not make Him a sinner, and neither does it with us. It is the spiritual separation that made us sinners, and on this point Christ was different. And for human beings the flesh just followed the separation of spirit, i.e. it was the separation of spirit that caused the degeneration of the flesh through x generations. So the sin is not in the flesh, but in the mind, the moral character, and although the flesh tempts us, there is no sin until we give in. It is not a sin to be tempted, and *Christ did not have to be a sinner to be truly tempted*. In the flesh there is only the tendency to sin, the propensity to give in, which is non-personal and just represents a more or less constant pressure towards some disharmonics on the level of consciousness.

But I believe that we need another perspective to see these things really clearly, without any shadow of doubt. There is a need to clarify the terms used in all theological debates, and

I believe that the Bible offers us a tool to get to the bottom of these things.

If we had been good prophecy students, we would have known this tool already....contained in the number 7 and its three dimensions, clearly explaining the nature of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But...its the old thing about the wineskins. Almost impossible to introduce new thinking to seasoned thinkers....that is our problem.

[John317]

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4.15.

"When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;" James.1.13

As Bible believers, we have to accept and reconcile both the above verses:

1. Christ was tempted, as we are tempted, by evil

2. God is never tempted by evil

First of all we have to conclude that "God" referred to here, is not Christ, but the Father, to avoid a full contradiction.

The so-called "problem" here is solved easily if we remember that Christ didn't walk this earth as Almighty God but as a man. Yes, He was indeed God, but He was God in the flesh. His deity was hidden beneath human flesh. Similarly, although Christ did not cease to be God, it would be incorrect to say that God got tired, sleepy, thirsty or hungry. In the same way, Satan was not tempting God in the wilderness but he was most certainly tempting the Second Adam, the Word made flesh.

[John317]

...A) The Bible details many things that had to be fulfilled by The Christ.

Not failing or sinning was one of those things the real Christ had to fulfill.

C) If Jesus would have sinned he wouldn't have been the Christ anyway.

D) If Jesus sinned and He was indeed the Christ the Scriptures would have been BROKEN.

I believe your problem here, Gustave, is that you are failing to make a distinction between the subjective experience of Christ-- that is, seeing things through the eyes of Jesus the man as he lived on this earth from day to day-- and the objective reality as the Father saw it and which is what we find in the prophecies about Christ's sacrifice. You're mistaken to think Ellen White believed the Father was not in control of history or that there was no certainty about Christ's life, death, resurrection, glorification, and return for His church. What she is saying is the same thing that the Gospels and other Scriptures show us-- which is that Christ genuinely & freely chose to do the will of the Father and that Jesus the man was painfully aware of the consequences for mankind if He failed to go to the cross. This is clearly shown in Christ's temptation in the Garden-- the temptation to do His own will as opposed to doing the will of His Father.

[shylock]

Gustave, your logic seems to be that since the Scriptures speak with such certainty about these issues, there was never any real possibility of alternative outcomes.

Christ could not possibly have sinned, no matter what. It was never even the faintest probability of that happening.

This may be right or wrong, depending on the perspective, as Joh317 is hinting at.

The devil no doubt hoped there was some probability of Christ sinning. He was probably even "sure", but hey, he was wrong.

The Father do doubt knew that Christ would not sin, as He knew and knows the future to the very detail. And He was "right", of course.

From these two perspectives we get very different evaluations of probability. I will not propose to imagine with any certainty how God thinks about this, but since God knows everything, I assume that He is not thinking about probability they way we do. If God knew exactly what would happen, and He did, then from His perspective there was probably no probability for any bad outcome. We cant say anything about this with greater certainty than this - "probably" - but God the Father saw things from a total perspective and knew for sure what would happen.

And then the perspective of Christ, which is extremely important. Did Christ have this certainty about these things, all the time? We can trust that Christ walked, moved and rested in the assurance that things would develop as prophesied, and that He knew what would happen. Still, this knowing is now taking place in a human being, who by nature does not operate on the level of certainty that God Himself does.

And this is the very point, Christ did undergo a transformation as He was incarnated and clothed in human flesh. This is the fascinating mystery. Before this, Christ was "only" Spirit, as His Father. And then He lets His spirit be connected to the human genome, so He can live in this world as a human being, sharing our experience. Spirit was united with genetic dust, and Christ became a human being with a subjective experience like you and me.

So the experience of Christ changed radically when He became a man, the man. He was pure Spirit, and was suddenly connected to pure dust. But not just any dust, but degenerated human dust, who had picked up the vibrations of spiritual imbalances through thousands of years. This is sinful flesh, and it has a tendency to challenge the perfect spiritual harmony.

So there was a constant battle in the mind of Christ, between the urges of the sinful flesh which does not seek the will of God, and the Spirit of God which He constantly subjected His mind and His will to. Christ had to experience this same battle as we do, although without sin.

So again we see these two worlds, the world of spirit and the world of matter, and we realize that the world of matter is subject to the world of spirit, and indeed is derived from the world of spirit, which is the primary world and source of all things.

And we see that Christ is in the middle of things, as always, being the bridge between two worlds, connecting them, uniting them and establishing a greater order. This is the nature of Christ, it seems, always embracing the extremes and thus defining the operational space humans can live and move in. Christ defines the real world, and we honor Him by accepting that reality.

As Christ came from above, from the realm of grace and freedom, He descended down into law and specifics as He adopted the human genome. The earth represents this world of restrictive law. But this genome is subject to a bunch of physical law, as the law of heredity, and Christ did not reject any law at all. Christ came all the way down into the actual physical setting that all human beings are subject to, through law, and that is sinful flesh as we call it.

"Sinful flesh" is a fascinating term. Because the flesh cannot sin by itself, it can only urge you to sin. Sinful flesh urges to sin, by definition, we should assume. Sinless flesh does not urge one to sin at all. And the sin happens in the mind, as a conscious choice, as specific thoughts that are given focus and importance (emotions). So sin happens in the mind, not in the flesh. We may say there is no automatic damnation in having sinful flesh, although in reality it is, except for Christ, as His Spirit came from Him and of course was pure. So then again we see that it is not the flesh that determines things all by itself, but the Spirit takes preeminence and overcomes the shortcomings of the flesh.

So the mind (our spirit) is impacted by two forces: the Spirit of God and the sinful flesh. The Spirit of God is pure and leads to peace and integration of all opposites in our experience, and the sinful flesh urges us to go to extremes and leads to disintegration if we let it. And as all human beings are subjected to these two forces, the Spirit and the flesh, so was Christ.

That was the point of Christ becoming a human being, to get this experience of being in the twilight zone here on earth, and through His struggle He would conquer in the Spirit. Without any struggle there would be no victory. And as we know, there is no struggle in death, so all the struggle was during the life of Christ.

The flesh drags us into a very subjective experience, with propensities to focus on things in a detabilizing way. The Spirit always tries to lift us up into a balanced perspective, both vertically between grace (up) and law( down), and horizontally between subjectivity (right) and objectivity (left). This is what the cross symbolizes, these two axes.

This then leads to a dynamic balance in time (forward/backward) and we stay and rest in Christ, in His peace, as all aspects of our consciousness are balanced. Honoring all 7 core spiritual values, as these are aspects of the character of God, these are 7 Spirits.

So the Spirit of God is working on our spirit to stay in harmonious balance, both horizontally which is relationally, loving your neighbor (objectivity) as yourself (subjectivity) and vertically, which is the spectrum between grace (heaven) and law (earth). Remember that Christ is that ladder, uniting these two worlds. And all of creation is really modelled after these dimensions of the Spirit, as Christ constantly seeks to teach us these things. He is dedicated to expressing the character of God in all things that He does, no doubt about that.

Sin is missing this target, this crosshair between the axes, not honoring the opposing values at that second level where Christ is. Some people insist on placing Christ at the first level, where the Father is. But remember that Christ is the only one who has seen God the Father. Nobody else has seen the Source of all things, so if Christ was no different then nobody would ever know God. This was the great problem, how to explain the unexplainable, how to reach out and really touch someone. Christ was the solution, as only He could go through an experience like that, reaching over the abyss between the self-existing and the dependent ones...uniting the world of Spirit with the world of physics and matter, in an eternal bond, making room for eternally living human beings.

And therefore all things are given to Christ, as He established all things through His suffering and being tempted, and conquering, truly showing the great love of God and its capability of sustaining an eternity of happiness for those who trust in Him.

[John317]

[JoeMo]

Pardon me for butting in as a newcomer to a conversation that has been going on for quite some time; but I have a question.

Is it possible or feasible that Jesus left His "God stuff" in heaven when He came to earth as a man; and therefore indeed risked losing His eternal life should He have given in to temptation (i.e., sinned)while living here? Scripture does say in several places that He could do nothing except what the Father blessed(See John 5:19; 5:30; and 8:28). I ask this because it seems to me that satan could always complain about the fairness of accepting the sinlessness of an inherently infallible being as an adequate sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Hebrews says He was tempted as we are. Doesn't being tempted imply that it was possible for Jesus to fail? Furthermore, aren't the wages of sin death?

Of course, if the answer to my question is "yes", a follow-up question would be "What would have happened to Jesus' "God" stuff if the man Jesus had died?"

I did not read the entire 51 pages preceding this post (my attention span isn't that long); so forgive me if this issue has already been addressed.

[John317]

Leave His "God stuff" in heaven? That's what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. They teach that Christ on earth was altogether human and did not have a spark of the divine until after He was raised a spirit creature. That is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible clearly teaches that the human Jesus was also deity the entire time he was on earth. He was/is "God with us." The divine nature of the Logos didn't cease or change when He became flesh. At the incarnation, the Logos took on our flesh, yet He was still the Logos.

[JoeMo]

Then why did Jesus say He could do nothing on His own - only what the Father showed Him? I'm not saying you're mistaken; I'm just curious.

BTW, I was a JW for a while on my way to becoming an Adventist 37 years ago; and they don't believe that Jesus ever was, is, or ever will be God. In their bible, they even refer to Jesus as "god" (little g") They believe He was a created being.

For the record, I believe that Jesus was God before He came to earth, while He was on earth, and will ever be God in the everlasting future. By "God stuff", I was referring to the possibility that He temporarily gave up qualities like omnipresence and everlasting life (He did actually die). Just something I have considered - not incorporated into my personal doctrines of faith.

Are we clear on that?

[Lysimachus]

Christ could not possibly have sinned, no matter what. It was never even the faintest probability of that happening.

The problem you will run into, however, is that Gustave will quote you some EGW statements that seem to indicate that Christ "could have possibly sinned". So are you going to deal with these statements? I'm asking you this question in good faith that you accept her as a true inspired prophet of God. If you do not, well, then we find ourselves at an impasse which will require a different thread.

[John317]

Then why did Jesus say He could do nothing on His own - only what the Father showed Him? I'm not saying you're mistaken; I'm just curious.

Because when the Logos became a human being, He gave up all the privileges and powers of God and relied completely on the Father, the Holy Spirit, the angels, and even on other human beings. This doesn't mean Christ ceased to be God when He became a man. He was both God and man, at the same time.

Phil 2: 5-10 refers to this issue:

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Col. 2: 9 also:

[9] For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

[John317]

By "God stuff", I was referring to the possibility that He temporarily gave up qualities like omnipresence and everlasting life (He did actually die).

Yes, Christ did voluntarily give up personal omnipresence and can now be with all believers only through His personal representative, the Holy Spirit. The human Christ died-- which was the reason God became man-- while deity did not die.

Some people believe that Christ left his divinity in heaven, but this is an error. Christ was divine on earth, yet the divine nature was hidden under the human. If He had come here as God, He couldn't have died and we couldn't have lived in His glorious presence.

[John317]

BTW, I was a JW for a while on my way to becoming an Adventist 37 years ago; and they don't believe that Jesus ever was, is, or ever will be God. In their bible, they even refer to Jesus as "god" (little g") They believe He was a created being.

You're exactly right about that. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Christ left his divine nature in heaven and came to this earth strictly as a human being of exactly the same value as the first Adam.

As far as Christ being a created being is concerned, the JW's belief is the same as some of the early SDAs, such as Uriah Smith (of the 1860s) and J.H. Waggoner.

Thank God for His helping you find your way out of the JW organization.

[John317]

[JoeMo]

Well, John317 - I'm glad we cleared that up.

Be Blessed,

JoeMo

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: shylock

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4.15.

"When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;" James.1.13

As Bible believers, we have to accept and reconcile both the above verses:

1. Christ was tempted, as we are tempted, by evil

2. God is never tempted by evil

First of all we have to conclude that "God" referred to here, is not Christ, but the Father, to avoid a full contradiction.

The so-called "problem" here is solved easily if we remember that Christ didn't walk this earth as Almighty God but as a man. Yes, He was indeed God, but He was God in the flesh. His deity was hidden beneath human flesh. Similarly, although Christ did not cease to be God, it would be incorrect to say that God got tired, sleepy, thirsty or hungry. In the same way, Satan was not tempting God in the wilderness but he was most certainly tempting the Second Adam, the Word made flesh.

Excellent points John.

[Gustave]

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4.15.

[Gustave]

I believe your problem here, Gustave, is that you are failing to make a distinction between the subjective experience of Christ-- that is, seeing things through the eyes of Jesus the man as he lived on this earth from day to day-- and the objective reality as the Father saw it and which is what we find in the prophecies about Christ's sacrifice.

[Gustave]

I believe your problem here, Gustave, is that you are failing to make a distinction between the subjective experience of Christ-- that is, seeing things through the eyes of Jesus the man as he lived on this earth from day to day-- and the objective reality as the Father saw it and which is what we find in the prophecies about Christ's sacrifice.

[Gibs]

Satan know of the liability and took full advantage of it. This was a secere test for Jesus as Satan the great master of decepion was hard on Him from the beginning of His time even as a babe.

"For a period of time Christ was on probation. He took humanity on Himself, to stand the test and trial which the first Adam failed to endure. Had He failed in His test and trial, He would have been disobedient to the voice of God, and the world would have been lost. {ST, May 10, 1899 par. 6}

Satan has asserted that men could not keep the commandments of God. To prove that they could, Christ became a man, and lived a life of perfect obedience, an evidence to sinful human beings, to the worlds unfallen, and to the heavenly angels, that man could keep God's law through the divine power that is abundantly provided for all that believe. In order to reveal God to the world, to demonstrate as true that which Satan has denied, Christ volunteered to take humanity, and in His power, humanity can obey God. "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God." All heaven is Christ's to give to the world. {ST, May 10, 1899 par. 7}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

Satan know of the liability and took full advantage of it. This was a secere test for Jesus as Satan the great master of decepion was hard on Him from the beginning of His time even as a babe.

[Gustave]

Hi Todd, feel free to work your way through this thread......

...And feel free to take me to task on what you don't agree with.

[Gustave]

Well Todd?

[Gustave]

Trinity discussion bump for Ted.