Why Adventists don't agree with the Nicene Creed.

[Gustave]

The 'Switch to Full Reply' button doesn't work. So, couldn't color, bold, italic or even underline... had no choice but to make all my comments in uppercase

I've had the same issue....

...Just type the HTML codes in manually.

[skyblue888]

In Jesus of Nazareth both the human and the divine were mysteriously blended. What Mrs. White is saying is very simple. If Jesus in his humanity had failed he would have died eternally and by the same token would have lost his eternal life as far as being God and man is concerned but His Divinity did not sink and die.

Get it Gustave? makes sense?

sky

[Gustave]

In Jesus of Nazareth both the human and the divine were mysteriously blended. What Mrs. White is saying is very simple. If Jesus in his humanity had failed he would have died eternally and by the same token would have lost his eternal life as far as being God and man is concerned but His Divinity did not sink and die.

Get it Gustave?

sky

United, NOT blended Skyblue888...

..Again, this is another area where Ellen taught heretical doctrine.

James 1,8

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways

The Natures of Christ were not mixed, blended or confused...

...The two natures were UNITED perfectly in the ONE Person Jesus.

...He was FULLY God and FULLY man.

Ellen taught the natures were BLENDED or confused....

...Textbook Arianism.

[skyblue888]

Yes, He was fully man, sinful man at that (he was a descendant of David according to the flesh) and God at the same time for the two natures were mysteriously blended but that does not mean in any way, shape, or form, that these two natures were confused whatever you mean by that.

sky

*And while on earth His own divinity was always kept back. By faith his humanity was united to the divinity of the Father through the Agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, and that is why it is written that Christ was not a revelation of Himself but of the Father. The Father was speaking and acting through the man Jesus of Nazareth. And Now the Divinity of Christ is to speak and act through the consecrated human agent. In our humanity we are to be one with the Divinity of Christ as the humanity of Jesus was by faith united to the Divinity of the Father.

[Raphael]

Gustav, please maintain propriety and keep from turning personalty subjective. EGW's have the rings of truth in her writings and as all inspired messengers they are never free from shortcomings...

Above all, this is God's nature of doing things.. He likes to cook very slowly and grow things very carefully, while human nature likes to rush things, grow overnight, and have immediate gratifying solutions.. He makes the night turn into day at the rated pace, the growth of knowledge regulated, and have gems of truth/miracles & aid kept out of sight until the very right time...

He is very patient, as we already all know...

The 350 years of papal persecution was agonizing slowly painful, what more this 6000 years... people are hilarious that He hasn't come.

So, I think it is very misplaced to say severe mental disconnection to John317. That's harsh, please mend your communication relation with him.

Please forgive me of my shortcomings as well.

God bless us.

[skyblue888]

Personally, I appreciate your last post, Raphael. I agree with you that our words and actions will determine whether we are actuated by the Spirit of Christ or not. Thanks.

Can I ask you what you mean by "350" years of papal persecution?

Where did you get that number, from the Scripture which speaks of "a time, times, and half a time"?

sky

[John317]

Notice that nowhere does Ellen White say that the Pre-existent Christ, the Word of God, would have ceased to exist.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

You have a severe mental disconnect here John...

...Ellen said THAT many times - enough so that there is no question about it.

Ellen White, L5,1900 SDA BC Volume 7,page 926

He became subject to temptation, endangering as it were, HIS DIVINE attributes. Satan sought, by the constant and curious devices of his cunning, to make Christ yield to temptation

Here's the quote in context:

Quote:

Divine culture brings perfection. If in connection with God the work is carried forward, the human agent, through Christ, will day by day gain victory and honor in the battle. Through the grace given he will overcome, and will be placed on vantage ground. In his relation to Christ he will be bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh, one with Christ in a peculiar relationship, because Christ took the humanity of man. He became subject to temptation, endangering as it were, His divine attributes. Satan sought, by the constant and curious devices of his cunning, to make Christ yield to temptation. Man must pass over the ground over which Christ has passed. As Christ overcame every temptation which Satan brought against Him, so man is to overcome. And those who strive earnestly to overcome are brought into a oneness with Christ that the angels in heaven can never know. {7BC 926.5}

The divine culture of men and women will be carried forward to completion only as they are partakers of the divine nature. Thus they may overcome as Christ overcame in their behalf. Through the grace given, fallen man may be placed on vantage ground. Through toil, through patient trust and faith in Jesus Christ, through faithful continuance in well-doing, he may rise to spiritual victory (Letter 5, 1900). {7BC 926.6}

Full Obedience Possible Through Christ.--Christ came to the earth, taking humanity and standing as man's representative, to show in the controversy with Satan that man, as God created him, connected with the Father and the Son, could obey every divine requirement (ST June 9, 1898). {7BC 926.7}[/quote']

In the above paragraph, Ellen White is clearly not talking about the pre-incarnate Christ but the incarnate Christ, i.e., the man Jesus Christ of Nazareth. She is talking about the One who took on human flesh and became subject to temptation. God was not subject to temptation. God cannot be tempted by sin. Who could be tempted? The man Jesus Christ.

Therefore it was the divine attributes of the man Jesus Christ which were endangered, not those of the eternal Word of God. The man could have lost them. He could have perished eternally, along with all of humanity. The eternal Word of God-- He who has been with God from all eternity-- could not possibly have ceased to exist.

You claim that Ellen White stated "many times" that the Word of God would have ceased to exist. Where else do you claim she said this?

[skyblue888]

"How can we span the distance between the mighty God and a helpless child? And yet the Creator of worlds, He in whom was the fullness of the Godhead bodily, was manifest in the helpless babe in the manger. Far higher than any of the angels, equal with the Father in dignity and glory, and yet wearing the garb of humanity! Divinity and humanity were mysteriously combined, and man and God became one." E.G. White, ST July 30,1896; 5 B.C.1130.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: John317

Notice that nowhere does Ellen White say that the Pre-existent Christ, the Word of God, would have ceased to exist.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

You have a severe mental disconnect here John...

...Ellen said THAT many times - enough so that there is no question about it.

Ellen White, L5,1900 SDA BC Volume 7,page 926

He became subject to temptation, endangering as it were, HIS DIVINE attributes. Satan sought, by the constant and curious devices of his cunning, to make Christ yield to temptation

Here's the quote in context:

Quote:

Divine culture brings perfection. If in connection with God the work is carried forward, the human agent, through Christ, will day by day gain victory and honor in the battle. Through the grace given he will overcome, and will be placed on vantage ground. In his relation to Christ he will be bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh, one with Christ in a peculiar relationship, because [b']Christ took the humanity of man. He became subject to temptation, endangering as it were, His divine attributes. Satan sought, by the constant and curious devices of his cunning, to make Christ yield to temptation. Man must pass over the ground over which Christ has passed. As Christ overcame every temptation which Satan brought against Him, so man is to overcome. And those who strive earnestly to overcome are brought into a oneness with Christ that the angels in heaven can never know. {7BC 926.5}

The divine culture of men and women will be carried forward to completion only as they are partakers of the divine nature. Thus they may overcome as Christ overcame in their behalf. Through the grace given, fallen man may be placed on vantage ground. Through toil, through patient trust and faith in Jesus Christ, through faithful continuance in well-doing, he may rise to spiritual victory (Letter 5, 1900). {7BC 926.6}

Full Obedience Possible Through Christ.--Christ came to the earth, taking humanity and standing as man's representative, to show in the controversy with Satan that man, as God created him, connected with the Father and the Son, could obey every divine requirement (ST June 9, 1898). {7BC 926.7}

In the above paragraph, Ellen White is clearly not talking about the pre-incarnate Christ but the incarnate Christ, i.e., the man Jesus Christ of Nazareth. She is talking about the One who took on human flesh and became subject to temptation. God was not subject to temptation. God cannot be tempted by sin. Who could be tempted? The man Jesus Christ.

Therefore it was the divine attributes of the man Jesus Christ which were endangered, not those of the eternal Word of God. The man could have lost them. He could have perished eternally, along with all of humanity.

You claim that Ellen White stated "many times" that the Word of God would have ceased to exist. Where else do you claim she said this?

John, I was just going to write something to that effect but you beat me to it.

Well said.

sky

[John317]

:-) Thank you, sky.

[Raphael]

Gustave, mixed, blended or united... what's the fuss over words and terms?

EGW was trying to explain what could have happened if certain situations transpired, even though it was impossible to happen. She was trying to drive a point home, not say that the 'ifs' could truly possibly happen. It shouldn't be a stumbling block to anyone.

When one wants to drive a point home, one would emphasize by repeating variously angled explanations, though these may be considered unnecessary by some others... but it is more to personal style or shortcomings (if put in that way) but this shouldn't keep anyone from grasping the elemental truths.

what would you call that... epistemic rhetorical techniques or rhetorical techniques? maybe not? ... there must be a coined word for it... or not...

[John317]

Like skyblue, though, I'm not sure what you mean by 350 years of papal persecution.

[skyblue888]

EGW was trying to explain what could have happened if certain situations transpired, even though it was impossible to happen. She was trying to drive a point home, not say that the 'ifs' could truly possibly happen.

Raphael

______________

Even though it was impossible to happen!!!

If it was impossible for Jesus of Nazareth to sin, then the whole thing would have been a mere hoax. No, Jesus was tempted in all points like as we are and he could have yielded to tempation. If he had yielded Satan would have won the contest. The whole time Satan was after him to cause him to fall. If Jesus had been for one moment the least impatient with anyone he met, Satan would have won. So these "ifs" and "coulds" and "woulds" from Mrs White are not to be taken lightly.

Who here can claim to be more inspired then inspiration?

sky

[John317]

The Natures of Christ were not mixed, blended or confused...

...The two natures were UNITED perfectly in the ONE Person Jesus.

...He was FULLY God and FULLY man.

Ellen taught the natures were BLENDED or confused....

...Textbook Arianism.

Friend, I think your problem is that you don't understand what SDAs and what Ellen White taught. Your last post also showed that you are not reading carefully enough. That is why you didn't notice that Ellen White speaks of Christ the man ceasing to exist, not the eternal Word of God. Christ the man was unconscious and dead in the tomb; but God was not dead.

Of course Christ was (and IS) fully God and fully man.

There was no confusion of the two natures of Christ. Ellen White herself was very clear on that point.

But let me ask you 4 questions:

1) Was God tempted by sin and the Devil?

2) Was Christ the man tempted by sin?

3) Was God tired and hungry?

4) Was Christ the man tired and hungry?

[John317]

Notice that nowhere does Ellen White say that the Pre-existent Christ, the Word of God, would have ceased to exist.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

"HIS Divine atributes" were ENDANGERED by His becoming SUBJECT to temptation....

...In case you need that translated - that means Christ could have LOST His Deity.

...If Christ EXISTED prior to coming to earth and taking on human flesh.

...THAT means whatever it was that Christ was prior to being born by Mary could have terminated.

So John, can we agree that you should cease making foolish assertions...

...Because you can't come to grips with the fact Ellen taught heresy here.

Please notice that Ellen White was talking about Christ the man, not the eternal Word of God.

Who was subject to temptations? Was it not the man? Or was God subject to temptations?

You accuse me of making foolish assertions and accuse Ellen White of teaching heresy because, as in this instance, you fail to understand what's being said.

Friend, do you have another example of where you believe Ellen White taught that the eternal Word of God-- He who was God Himself and had been with God from all eternity-- would have ceased to exist if Jesus had sinned?

[Raphael]

350 years, must be wrong... how many years did the papacy rule? feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.

Christ is most capable of doing anything, not only sinning but would never use that capability, just as any one having the capability to end his life, in general could never come to that.

I could use drugs for example, I have the capability but it will never happen... what more of Christ...

But if one insists that Christ could have really, truly, definitely failed and perhaps, even convincingly struggled not to fail, to avoid a hoax impression, well can't say much more.

For myself, I believe that though without true risk, Christ still suffered and died for me to be save and that the most wonderful thing is that He loves and cares for me.

I remembered His being beside God for untold ages, dealing then finally ousting Lucifer from heaven after a given time-frame far beyond six thousand years, of a concealed salvation plan (& preparation) for a deciding match with Lucifer for 33 years.

This beyond trillion of years old Being with His far over six thousand years of preparation for a measly 33 year battle against a 'mere' creation, in a Divine status of a God & supported by God His Father, was not out on an adventure mission with possible chances of loosing but was on the greatest mission of love and certainty.

He is my God that I have put my faith in, my Hero and my Knight in shining armor. I can not believe or put my trust in Him if He is not overwhelmingly omnipotent (not only beyond mortal hurdles but of death itself), as He claims and teaches to be; or if He had the possible risks of losing to a creation of His own design and of becoming a possible sour loser against His on works and systems.

[BobRyan]

The devil is "informed" by every measure. In Matt 4 the devil himself tempts Christ because he knows that in fact Christ on earth was tempted.

In Romans 8 and Heb 4 we find Christ "tempted in all points as we are " yet without sin.

No possibility of bending the Bible to say "Christ could not be tempted".

The Bible has references to "Christ tempted" and no reference at all ( no not even one) to "Christ could not be tempted".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Those who imagine they understand the full hypothetical scenario regarding "What if Christ failed" reveal how little they know of the infinite.

We do not fully understand even the incarnation of Christ -- Ellen White agrees to this point many times.

We do not fully understand the nature of God - Ellen White also agrees to this point.

The Bible says Christ was TEMPTED by the devil and in fact was tempted in ALL points as we are - yet without sin.

No sense in adding your own "not really" to the text of scripture.

And though we know that Christ would have sufferred innfinite loss had he failed - we do not have that entire picture in a test tube. Why run deep into areas where all you are doing is guessing?

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

350 years, must be wrong... how many years did the papacy rule? feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.

It's usually given as 1260 years.

The bishop of Rome was declared by Emperor Justinian to be the corrector of heretics of the Western church in 533, and he was able to fulfill that position in 538 after the defeat of the Ostrogoths by the Roman army. The pope would go on to rule and persecute until 1798, at which time he was taken captive by Napoleon's General Berthier.

[Gustave]

Gustave, mixed, blended or united... what's the fuss over words and terms?

[BobRyan]

It was possible for Christ to sin - it was possible for the unfallen angels to sin.

But He did not - and they did not.

Thus the experiment "had a point".

in Christ,

Bob

[Gustave]

It was possible for Christ to sin

[BobRyan]

The Bible says "Jesus was tempted" in Matt 4.

The Bible says "Jesus was tempted" in Heb 4.

The Bible does NOT say "Jesus COULD NOT be tempted" -

Once the Bible student fully accepts what the Bible DOES say - the conclusion is pretty easy.

Wild claim:

As I have now demonstrated with over 50 Scriptures...

...It was not nor ever possible for Christ to sin.

Simple fact:

You provided not one such text saying "It was not possible for Christ to sin".

It does not get any easier than this.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gustave]

The Bible says "Jesus was tempted" in Matt 4.

[Gustave]

Another one to share.

Micah 5,2

AND THOU, BETHLEHEM Ephrata, art a little one among the thousands of Juda: out of thee shall he come forth unto me that IS to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity

Zech 9,9

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Sion, shout for joy, O daughter of Jerusalem: BEHOLD THY KING WILL COME to thee, the just and saviour: he is poor, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass