Why Adventists don't agree with the Nicene Creed.

[John317]

Yes, Gustave. Seventh-day Adventists know those verses well and rejoice in them. But those verses do not deal with the issue of whether Christ was a free agent and could have chosen to disobey His Father.

[John317]

You realize the Apostles of Christ said Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundations of the earth, right?

Yes, of course, Gustave. Did you know that Ellen White quotes the verse and talks about its meaning?

Quote:

Before the Father [Christ] pleaded in the sinner’s behalf, while the host of heaven awaited the result with an intensity of interest that words cannot express. Long continued was that mysterious communing—“the counsel of peace”for the fallen human race. The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth, for Christ is “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race. . . . Oh, the mystery of redemption! The love of God for a world that did not love Him! Who can know the depths of that love that “passeth knowledge”? . . . {CTr 30.4}

God was to be manifest in Christ, “reconciling the world unto himself.” Human beings had become so degraded by sin that it was impossible for them, in themselves, to come into harmony with Him whose nature is purity and goodness. But Christ, after having redeemed them from the condemnation of the law, could impart divine power to unite with human effort. Thus by repentance toward God and faith in Christ the fallen children of Adam might once more become “sons of God.”Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 63, 64. {CTr 30.5}

The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God. {5BC 1132.8}

[John317]

....

I just don't think you like it that I've exposed your prophet Ellen....

...When she said something God said was IMPOSSIBLE was possible.

...When she repudiated EVERY Prophet in the Bible as well as the Apostles of Christ.

All you've done up to now is expose your lack of understanding of what Ellen White taught.

[Gustave]

God was to be manifest in Christ

?

Jesus is "GOD" Manifested John317...

1 Timothy 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God WAS manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

What did Ellen mean by the following?

...Who is the "HIM" Ellen speaks of below.

...Think about this prior to answering it - you know where I'm going with it.

Ellen White

Human beings had become so degraded by sin that it was impossible for them, in themselves, to come into harmony with Him whose nature is purity and goodness

I want you to think about this for minute John....

...Who is the "HIM" Ellen just mentioned?

...Read it over a couple of times.

[skyblue888]

That quote from Vol.5 of B.C. p.1132 that John just quoted is one of my favorites. But the best part was missing:

"If men would contemplate the love of Christ displayed in the cross, their faith would be strengthened to appropriate the merits of His shed blood, and they would be cleansed and saved from sin."

Therefore, we read:

"The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." Desire of Ages, 347.

How do we appropriate the merits of Christ to ourselves? by claiming them:

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." Testimonies to Ministers, 93.

The Christlike life is a miracle just as it is a miracle for man to walk upon the water. But when with the simple faith of a little child we daily appropriate the merits of Christ to ourselves we become a fortress, God's fortress, which He holds in a revolted world and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. (See D.A.324) The angels of God are around us like a wall of fire; the righteousness of Christ goes before us and the glory of God is our rearward.

Then we become vessels fit for the Master's use as divinity and humanity are combined:

"We shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." E.G. White, Faith & Works, p.86.

"Divine power and the human agency combined will be a complete success for Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything... With humanity and divinity combined you can accomplish a work as enduring as eternity." E.G. White, Faith & Works, p.27.

sky

[skyblue888]

Gustave, you belong to the Catholic faith. I was raised Catholic myself until the age of 23. The Catholic faith does not rest upon the divine merits of the world's Redeemer but mainly upon the merits of the creature, the merits of the Virgin Mary, the merits of the saints, and the merits of one's own works.

The idea of salvation through merits is the right idea but it must be the right merits. Only the merits of Christ avail with God. Therefore our only hope is in daily appropriating the merits of Christ to ourselves by claiming them. God placed His word before the Reformers like a torch and taught them to hold in abomination all other merits save those of Jesus. Thus they cast themselves wholly upon the merits of the blood shed for them upon Calvary's cross and they were greatly blessed.

The idea of confessing your sins to the priest is the right idea but it must be the right priest. Jesus Christ is that priest. 1 Tim.2:5 teaches us that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator between God and men. It also teaches us that there is only one Name given among men whereby we may be saved: Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Acts 4:12.

When I was Catholic, at a young age, I would go to the confessional and confess my sins to the priest. Is that what you do Gustave? I also trusted in the merits of Mary and of the saints. I prayed to them in the hope that they would intercede for me so that Christ would bless me. I was taught that Mary and the saints had a bank of merits and that these merits qualified them to be intercessors in behalf of sinners.

Is that what you believe Gustave?

sky

[Gustave]

Gustave, you belong to the Catholic faith. I was raised Catholic myself until the age of 23. The Catholic faith does not rest upon the divine merits of the world's Redeemer but mainly upon the merits of the creature, the merits of the Virgin Mary, the merits of the saints, and the merits of one's own works.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: John317

Notice that nowhere does Ellen White say that the Pre-existent Christ, the Word of God, would have ceased to exist.

Please notice that Ellen White was talking about Christ the man, not the eternal Word of God.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: John317

Notice that nowhere does Ellen White say that the Pre-existent Christ, the Word of God, would have ceased to exist.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

"HIS Divine atributes" were ENDANGERED by His becoming SUBJECT to temptation....

...In case you need that translated - that means Christ could have LOST His Deity.

...If Christ EXISTED prior to coming to earth and taking on human flesh.

...THAT means whatever it was that Christ was prior to being born by Mary could have terminated.

So John, can we agree that you should cease making foolish assertions...

...Because you can't come to grips with the fact Ellen taught heresy here.

Please notice that Ellen White was talking about Christ the man, not the eternal Word of God.

Who was subject to temptations? Was it not the man? Or was God subject to temptations?

Been following along and just wanted to ask a clarification.

With this talk of separate Christ the man and Eternal Word of God it almost sounds like Adoptionism. Is that your intent here?

[tall73]

Ellen White, DA 131

Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not ONLY became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure AND eternal loss

Seems clear enough. The taking on risk of failure and eternal loss was connected to leaving the eternal home.

The calculation of eternal loss would have happened before the initiation of the plan, before in the incarnation.

It seems like Gustave provided what was asked for here.

[John317]

...With this talk of separate Christ the man and Eternal Word of God it almost sounds like Adoptionism. Is that your intent here?

Certainly not.

Did Jesus Christ walk the earth as God Almighty or as a man?

Was God Almighty hungry and tired and tempted by sin? Or was the man Jesus of Nazareth?

[tall73]

The Bible says Christ was TEMPTED by the devil and in fact was tempted in ALL points as we are - yet without sin.

Agreed it says that.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

...With this talk of separate Christ the man and Eternal Word of God it almost sounds like Adoptionism. Is that your intent here?

Certainly not.

Did Jesus Christ walk the earth as God Almighty or as a man?

Was God Almighty hungry and tired and tempted by sin? Or was the man Jesus of Nazareth?

Edited this response as the one below explains better.

[tall73]

I think we can agree that Jesus emptied Himself, and did not have omnipresence, etc.

He did take on the likeness of man.

However, how can you suggest that the "man" part and the "Word" part could have separate fates?

Some Arian positions drew disctinctions between the man Jesus and the Spirit that came on him of the Christ.

[tall73]

Perhaps we can save time. If you admit that Gustave produced the needed evidence to show that the fate involved the pre-incarnate Christ not just the man Jesus, then we need not go into all this.

[John317]

It seems you are now positing a wholly human Jesus.

Please clarify.

Quote:

There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one. The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless true that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {LHU 235.3}

Jesus was and is the God-man-- 100% God and 100% man.

When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, was it Almighty God who was tempted by the Devil?

James 1: 13 says,

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

When Jesus was sleeping in the storm-tossed boat, was God Almighty tired and asleep and in need of being awakened?

The Bible says that God neither slumbers nor sleeps.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

It seems you are now positing a wholly human Jesus.

Please clarify.

Quote:

There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one. The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless true that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {LHU 235.3}

Jesus was and is the God-man-- 100% God and 100% man.

But you are not suggesting that Jesus was 100 percent God and 100 percent man at the time of His death and burial. You seem to be suggesting He ceased to be at some point both God and man and just became man.

[John317]

But you are not suggesting that Jesus was 100 percent God and 100 percent man at the time of His death and burial. You seem to be suggesting He ceased to be at some point both God and man and just became man.

No, I don't mean to suggest that at all.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus of Nazareth was merely a human being and was not divine during his earthly ministry. I definitely believe Jesus of Nazareth was deity the whole time He lived on this earth. He was never merely human. He appeared to be merely human but He was also the Son of God.

[tall73]

Heading to bed now. But before going I was just going to inquire about the quotes.

Did Gustave's quotes demonstrate to you that it was more than just the man that was at risk?

Or do you contend otherwise still.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

But you are not suggesting that Jesus was 100 percent God and 100 percent man at the time of His death and burial. You seem to be suggesting He ceased to be at some point both God and man and just became man.

No, I don't mean to suggest that at all.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus of Nazareth was merely a human being and was not divine during his earthly ministry. I definitely believe Jesus of Nazareth was deity the whole time He lived on this earth. He was never merely human. He appeared to be merely human but He was also the Son of God.

Then how could he have separate fates for the "man" portion and the "divine" portion?

[John317]

Did Gustave's quotes demonstrate to you that it was more than just the man that was at risk?

God essentially put all Heaven at risk when He gave His Son to live as a man on this earth. This doesn't mean God would have ceased to exist but it means that if Jesus Christ had sinned during His mission to the earth, it would have caused a major rupture within the Godhead. We don't know exactly what this rupture would have entailed, but we do know that the Godhead was willing to risk everything for the sake of saving humanity. Saving us came at a very great cost to God Himself-- a cost far beyond anything we can imagine. John 3: 16 gives us only a hint of this cost.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

Did Gustave's quotes demonstrate to you that it was more than just the man that was at risk?

God essentially put all Heaven at risk when He gave His Son to live as a man on this earth. This doesn't mean God would have ceased to exist but it means that if Jesus Christ had sinned during His mission to the earth, it would have caused a major rupture within the Godhead.

Hm....so it turns out ole' Gustave was not too far off on Ellen White's views afterall, huh?

And it seems you are now backing away from the view that it was only the man in danger.

I have talked with Gustave a lot on two other forums. And I agree he sometimes misses nuances, and he certainly goes for the sensational sell. But he reads TONS of Adventist material, and if he tells you he has quotes, I would tend to believe him.

[tall73]

I am still mulling over the temptation issue. Jesus was tempted, clearly.

In the Baker letter Ellen White seems to distinguish between frailties and sinful propensities. Of course other quotes seem to raise other issues.

Going to mull over a bit more. Of course this debate has raged on for quite some time among Adventists.

[John317]

I have talked with Gustave a lot on two other forums. And I agree he sometimes misses nuances, and he certainly goes for the sensational sell. But he reads TONS of Adventist material, and if he tells you he has quotes, I would tend to believe him.

I don't think anyone on the Forum is denying the quotes themselves. If anything is being denied, it's the meaning and significance that Gustave makes of the quotes. We've dealt with that issue many times on this Forum.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

I have talked with Gustave a lot on two other forums. And I agree he sometimes misses nuances, and he certainly goes for the sensational sell. But he reads TONS of Adventist material, and if he tells you he has quotes, I would tend to believe him.

I don't think anyone on the Forum is denying the quotes themselves. If anything is being denied, it's the meaning and significance that Gustave makes of the quotes. We've dealt with that issue many times on this Forum.

You argued before it was just the man at risk. Now your latest statement seems to change that in accordance with the quotes.

It looks like Gustave had a point.

How can there be a rupture in the Godhead if it is just the man at risk?