Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Again, the concept that Christ could have sinned and fallen is an Arian blasphemy.

So.... what you're saying is that the 40 days Jesus spent out in the wilderness and then was "tempted" by Satan is pure poppycock.. nicht wahr?

[miz3]

rudywoofs,

What do think the chances are that Jesus Christ would bow down to the devil so that He (Jesus) could have all those promised kingdoms.

Is it 50-50?

Is it 20-80?

is it 75-25?

What do think the odds are that Jesus Christ would succumb to the temptation of Satan?

Your the one stating that such a thing is possible, so what are the possibilities?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Miz3, I'm not a gambler. And though I received top scores in Graduate level Statistics, I refuse to be taken in by your nonsense.

BTW,

Your the one stating that such a thing is possible...

"Your" should be correctly written, "You're".... I know you like to be correct in your grammar, spelling, and punctuation, so I thought I should point this error out to you.

[miz3]

rudywoofs,

I am indebted to you again. Thank you. Grammar and spelling are a weakness, a weakness I try to improve on daily. Thanks again for you help.

Now on the probability point:

You are the one who stated that Jesus Christ could have sinned. Thus, the burden is on you to determine what the chances are that He, Christ, would have sinned.

I say its zero probability!

What is your probability assessment? If you don't give one then you argument falls flat and you stated assertion must be rejected because you cannot back it up.

You can't demonstrate you assessment from Scripture or from probability.

[Gerr]

...What it heretical is when people claim Jesus was tempted WITHIN Himself.

...So that Christ had to resist HIS TEMPTATION and OVERCOME His Temptation.

...That affirmation is simply blasphemous Arianism..

In my many years as a SDA (former Catholic), I have never heard a sermon or read a publication that even hinted at what you are claiming above. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and referred to as "holy" from conception. The Bible is clear: ESV | Jn 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,

NASB95 | Jn 14:30 “I will °not speak much more with you, for the ruler of °the world is coming°, and he has °nothing in Me; 45.1% difference

NIV84 | Jn 14:30 I will °not speak with you much longer, for the °prince of this world is coming. He has no °hold on me, 24% difference

NRSV | Jn 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no °power over me°;

IOW, there was no sinful tendencies in Him that could have been aroused the way it does us.

Quote:

If I walk up to you Gerry and 'tempt you' to join me in shooting some heroin then going out to rob a liquor store...

...And after that chasing down a woman and raping her.

...It can be said I tempted you.

...Or Gerry was tempted "by" Gustave.

But that would not be a temptation unless there is a possibility for me to say - "yes". Jesus could have decided to satisfy His hunger and turned the stones into bread, jumped off the temple to prove He was the Son of God, or given this world by the devil in exchange for His worship, but He didn't.

He could have. That's how I see it, and I believe most Adventists see it.

Quote:

Again, the concept that Christ could have sinned and fallen is an Arian blasphemy.

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. Why would Satan waste his time tempting and dogging Him at every turn if there was not any possibility that he could succeed in tempting Christ to do something beyond His Father's will?

[BobRyan]

Well I can this about that. I tried reading the bible and didn't make a lot of progress. Steps to Christ just made sense, it offered practical advice on how to proceed. It is the perfect example of a lesser light leading to a greater light. Understanding the great controversy opened a pathway to understanding the bible, seeing it in a whole new way.

Thank you for sharing that.

I agree that when you find people who say "I read the Bible but I don't get anything out of it" the best remedy is to get them to read something easier to understand first -- and then they develop a real desire for the scriptures.

It is not Ellen White's books or the Bible - it is the ministry of Ellen White leading to the Bible and the Bible only as our rule for all doctrine faith and practice.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

Gerry: What does the Bible say about how a fact is to be established?

GerryCabalo,

You can start by reading 1Corinthians 2:6-16.

Then read James 1:5

Talk about careful reading! Here's the answer:

[color:#990000]Dt 17:6, 19:15; Mt 18:16; 2 Cor 13:1; 1 Tim 5:19; Heb 10:28

You called me out that I was bearing false witness because I interpreted your statement as claiming that God spoke/speaks only to you and not to us peons. Well, it turns out PK got exactly the same message. So whether that was your intent or not, that's how you came across. I have pointed out other statements that are so smug and condescending, but instead of considering looking at your statements, you attribute the evil to others instead. THAT tells me a lot about you!

[Gerr]

"EVERY man" is tempted when THAT MAN is drawn toward something HE LUSTS for already!

...What do you believe Jesus lusted for that was classified as SIN.

...So that "Christ" had to RESIST "HIS" temptation ( not the Devil's )?

Mark 7:20

And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: ALL these evil things come from within, and defile the man

Did Lucifer or Adam & Eve have any of the above when temptation came to them?

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

"EVERY man" is tempted when THAT MAN is drawn toward something HE LUSTS for already!

...What do you believe Jesus lusted for that was classified as SIN.

...So that "Christ" had to RESIST "HIS" temptation ( not the Devil's )?

Mark 7:20

And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: ALL these evil things come from within, and defile the man

Did Lucifer or Adam & Eve have any of the above when temptation came to them?

Was Lucifer or Adam and Eve 'purposed' as and by God to save humanity?

....Lucifer / Adam & Eve could and did sin by an act of free will.

....God can do anything except NOT BE GOD and unfortunately this is the Arian / Adventist rubric.

[Gerr]

Was Lucifer or Adam and Eve 'purposed' as and by God to save humanity?

....Lucifer / Adam & Eve could and did sin by an act of free will.

....God can do anything except NOT BE GOD and unfortunately this is the Arian / Adventist rubric.

Wow! You're really determined to pin the heresy tail on Adventists, aren't you? Why don't you tell us what your beliefs are or your church affiliation and see where the heresy tail is really on? If Lucifer, or Adam & Eve could sin without pre-existent indwelling sin already, then so could Christ, the SECOND Adam. It is utter nonsense for me to think that the highest of the covering cherubs who was smart enough to entice a third of the pure & holy angels of heaven to join him in his rebellion, to waste his time to tempt an untemptable Christ.

Of what mystery or point then for the Bible writers to point out that Christ "did no sin" or was "tempted as we are, yet without sin" if there was no possibility for Him to yield to temptation whatsoever? That would be totally absurd to hold up as a model one who is totally above and beyond temptation. All a charade? How then could he succor the tempted like me if was above/beyond temptation to disobey God? Me thinks that heresy tail is on you.

[miz3]

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. Why would Satan waste his time tempting and dogging Him at every turn if there was not any possibility that he could succeed in tempting Christ to do something beyond His Father's will?

Since you believe the chance that Jesus Christ could have sinned is NOT ZERO, then what percentage is it that Jesus Christ would have bowed down to Satan and worshiped him in exchange for the kingdoms.

Is it 50%?

Is it 75%?

Is it 30%?

I await your answer.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Was Lucifer or Adam and Eve 'purposed' as and by God to save humanity?

....Lucifer / Adam & Eve could and did sin by an act of free will.

....God can do anything except NOT BE GOD and unfortunately this is the Arian / Adventist rubric.

Wow! You're really determined to pin the heresy tail on Adventists, aren't you? Why don't you tell us what your beliefs are or your church affiliation and see where the heresy tail is really on? If Lucifer, or Adam & Eve could sin without pre-existent indwelling sin already, then so could Christ, the SECOND Adam. It is utter nonsense for me to think that the highest of the covering cherubs who was smart enough to entice a third of the pure & holy angels of heaven to join him in his rebellion, to waste his time to tempt an untemptable Christ.

Of what mystery or point then for the Bible writers to point out that Christ "did no sin" or was "tempted as we are, yet without sin" if there was no possibility for Him to yield to temptation whatsoever? That would be totally absurd to hold up as a model one who is totally above and beyond temptation. All a charade? How then could he succor the tempted like me if was above/beyond temptation to disobey God? Me thinks that heresy tail is on you.

My Church affiliation is irrelevant at this particular theological juncture....

...My beliefs whereas this issue is concerned have been well stated.

...And documented by Scripture upon Scripture.

...All of which confirm exactly what I've been affirming.

Adam and Eve did NOT have concupiscence nor does Orthodox Christianity require that they did...

...Because OF Adam's sin his generations are inclined toward evil - we desire and lust for that which we should NOT.

...Christ did NOT lust for those things classified as sin!

In your feverish attempt to pump up Ellen White you've made some illogical statements about the Devil....

...Like the Devil was "too smart" to waste his time on trying to tempt "Christ" if it wasn't possible!

...Was Satan "so smart" when he fought against 'God' and was thrown out of heaven?!

...That does NOT sound like the brightest bulb in the pack to me Gerry!

...Did Satan not know who God was! Come on - you are offering JW's agruments here!

The Bible authors were clear to point out that Jesus PERSONALLY KNEW our INFIRMITIES...

...That means Jesus experienced EVERYTHING we did APART FROM SIN.

...That's exactly what the Bible says.

A Medical Doctor does not need to contract HIV so that he can succor a person with AIDS....

...This is horrific logic indeed.

This is the point where "all" adventist groups goes sideways...

...After the Scripture has been made clear and it's been proven what the Bible says.

...It always comes down to how the Adventist group's guru set the stage.

...And in the guru's denomination the Bible is required to mean exactly what the guru said it does.

Just go after the Scriptures I posted and show me where I've read them wrong....

...It does not help your case to ignore those Scriptures and instead fall back.

...On the faulty logic some guru extracted out of a mis-read text.

[miz3]

Gustave,

I have noticed that some of your posts are at minimum rather crude and in my mind even blasphemous.

Having said that, your points are well taken both on this topic and your giant back and forth with John317 in other topics (relating to the creed).

I like where you stand but I have problems as I said with your crudeness.

[ClubV12]

As I understand it, Christ was tempted AFTER or at the END of His 40 day fast. He was near death, at His weakest possible point in His life, physically. That is when the devil came, as an "angel of light". As if he were sent from heavens throne to rescue Christ from His suffering. At first, Jesus was NOT SURE it was Satan! He did not know for sure until Satan spoke. "IF, thou be the son of God...". That was the key, he revealed himself by his words, not by his appearance or actions. Jesus, being familiar with the BIBLE, knew at the moment what He was facing.

Literally dieing of hunger, who among us would have not traded all for even a morsel of bread? When the temptations were over, angels from heaven immediately attended Christ, bringing Him food and drink lest He perish, being at deaths door.

The temptations were very real indeed, as was the possibility of failure. His knowledge of the scriptures played a significant roll in over coming.

[Gustave]

Gustave,

I have noticed that some of your posts are at minimum rather crude and in my mind even blasphemous.

Having said that, your points are well taken both on this topic and your giant back and forth with John317 in other topics (relating to the creed).

I like where you stand but I have problems as I said with your crudeness.

This is most serious stuff miz3 and as such it's better to use shocking language to demonstrate the truth...

...Like the alien concept of God having "flesh" with "all the parts of a man".

...That, if true, would mean God has a rectum!

That theological affirmation alone should be enough to shock the Bible student into reality...

...That such a premise is wrong in a most horrific way.

...The same goes for the teaching "Christ" could have sinned.

I mean have some of these folks looked up at the meaning of the word "Christ"?

...It's a Title with a very specific meaning.

...That precludes the bearer of it EVER loosing His Salvation.

[Gustave]

As I understand it, Christ was tempted AFTER or at the END of His 40 day fast. He was near death, at His weakest possible point in His life, physically. That is when the devil came, as an "angel of light". As if he were sent from heavens throne to rescue Christ from His suffering. At first, Jesus was NOT SURE it was Satan! He did not know for sure until Satan spoke. "IF, thou be the son of God...". That was the key, he revealed himself by his words, not by his appearance or actions. Jesus, being familiar with the BIBLE, knew at the moment what He was facing.

Literally dieing of hunger, who among us would have not traded all for even a morsel of bread? When the temptations were over, angels from heaven immediately attended Christ, bringing Him food and drink lest He perish, being at deaths door.

The temptations were very real indeed, as was the possibility of failure. His knowledge of the scriptures played a significant roll in over coming.

What "sin" did Christ "overcome" so that He was able to resist His temptation?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: GerryCabalo

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. Why would Satan waste his time tempting and dogging Him at every turn if there was not any possibility that he could succeed in tempting Christ to do something beyond His Father's will?

Since you believe the chance that Jesus Christ could have sinned is NOT ZERO, then what percentage is it that Jesus Christ would have bowed down to Satan and worshiped him in exchange for the kingdoms.

Is it 50%?

Is it 75%?

Is it 30%?

I await your answer.

Miz3, sin and temptation are subjective denominators, different for every person, according to his/her life experiences. As such, they do not lend themselves to statistical analysis. Asking for that type of proof is silly. The fact that Satan tried to tempt Jesus is indicative of the fact that Jesus very well **could** have given in and performed a miracle on His own behalf by turning stones into bread. You underestimate Satan. He will not do something if there is no chance he could be successful..

[Gustave]

Miz3, sin and temptation are subjective denominators, different for every person, according to his/her life experiences. As such, they do not lend themselves to statistical analysis. Asking for that type of proof is silly. The fact that Satan tried to tempt Jesus is indicative of the fact that Jesus very well **could** have given in and performed a miracle on His own behalf by turning stones into bread. You underestimate Satan. He will not do something if there is no chance he could be successful..

Just because Satan went to war with "God" in heaven....

...Would default into Satan having a punchers chance of defeating God in heaven.

...Using your logic.

Are you suggesting that Satan attempting to "take over power from God in heaven"...

...Is indicative of the fact God could have very well been defeated by Satan, in heaven?

...You underestimate "God", by a whole bunch!

Yet this is a perfect example of where a theology affirming God can mutate...

...Ends up once it's realized there is no support from the Bible for it.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Gustave, you are off on another bunny trail again. Have fun with Alice, the White Rabbit, the Cheshire Cat, and the rest of the gang.

Just because Satan went to war with "God" in heaven....

...Would default into Satan having a punchers chance of defeating God in heaven.

...Using your logic.

Are you suggesting that Satan attempting to "take over power from God in heaven"...

...Is indicative of the fact God could have very well been defeated by Satan, in heaven?

...You underestimate "God", by a whole bunch!

Yet this is a perfect example of where a theology affirming God can mutate...

...Ends up once it's realized there is no support from the Bible for it.

You love putting words in other people's mouths, do you not? Your logic is flawed. God is not human. And in heaven, it was a battle on a whole different level than it is with Satan and humans. Satan **knows** he can tempt people to sin. He did not know what actions might occur in heaven.

[miz3]

rudywoofs,

Gustave is right.

You underestimate God (SDA at least many have a tendency to make God a superhuman entity) and attach to Him all kinds of unBiblical limitations. God has no limitations! (regardless of human attempts to make it so).

You clearly overestimate satan who with his knowledge of God and supposed vast knowledge of God would have known the futility of going against God. There is no Biblical support for your view that satan is smart or even approaches being smart enough to fool Jesus Christ.

The idea of the temptation itself to bow down and worship satan is on its face ludicrous. Only a total idiot would even consider it let alone do it. Come on get real rudywoofs. Now who is in Alice and Wonderland? You should be embarrassed to even think about such a thing.

Do you think that Jesus Christ would be that stupid to fall for that "temptation"?

As I said, there is ZERO chance that Jesus Christ would worship satan and you know it, which is why you won't answer my query in regard to probability. If there was even the slightest chance on this temptation you would have given it to me long ago. The fact that you haven't and the lack of Biblical support for your position clearly proves my point.

You are bordering on disrespecting the Son of God by even suggesting that He would even consider such a temptation or be fooled by it and that somehow eternity weighed in the balance over this temptation. Again, Alice in Wonderland. Its embarrassing to listen to such dribble coming from SDA mouths.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: GerryCabalo

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. Why would Satan waste his time tempting and dogging Him at every turn if there was not any possibility that he could succeed in tempting Christ to do something beyond His Father's will?

Since you believe the chance that Jesus Christ could have sinned is NOT ZERO, then what percentage is it that Jesus Christ would have bowed down to Satan and worshiped him in exchange for the kingdoms.

Is it 50%?

Is it 75%?

Is it 30%?

I await your answer.

Pam gave a very good answer: Miz3, sin and temptation are subjective denominators, different for every person, according to his/her life experiences. As such, they do not lend themselves to statistical analysis. Asking for that type of proof is silly. The fact that Satan tried to tempt Jesus is indicative of the fact that Jesus very well **could** have given in and performed a miracle on His own behalf by turning stones into bread. You underestimate Satan. He will not do something if there is no chance he could be successful..

[ClubV12]

Don't underestimate the power of sin either!

Had Jesus turned those rocks into bread, He would have fallen under the dominion of Satan, at which time anything would have been possible.

[miz3]

Pam gave a very good answer: Miz3, sin and temptation are subjective denominators, different for every person, according to his/her life experiences. As such, they do not lend themselves to statistical analysis. Asking for that type of proof is silly. The fact that Satan tried to tempt Jesus is indicative of the fact that Jesus very well **could** have given in and performed a miracle on His own behalf by turning stones into bread. You underestimate Satan. He will not do something if there is no chance he could be successful..

You keep focusing on the "stones and bread".

Please Gerry, focus in on the bowing down and worshiping Satan Temptation.

As I said,

The idea of the temptation itself to bow down and worship satan is on its face ludicrous. Only a total idiot would even consider it let alone do it. Come on get real rudywoofs. Now who is in Alice and Wonderland? You should be embarrassed to even think about such a thing.

Do you think that Jesus Christ would be that stupid to fall for that "temptation"?

As I said, there is ZERO chance that Jesus Christ would worship satan and you know it, which is why you won't answer my query in regard to probability. If there was even the slightest chance on this temptation you would have given it to me long ago. The fact that you haven't and the lack of Biblical support for your position clearly proves my point.

You are bordering on disrespecting the Son of God by even suggesting that He would even consider such a temptation or be fooled by it and that somehow eternity weighed in the balance over this temptation. Again, Alice in Wonderland. Its embarrassing to listen to such dribble coming from SDA mouths.

[Gerr]

Hmmmm. We have something we agree on after all.

Quote:

This is most serious stuff miz3 and as such it's better to use shocking language to demonstrate the truth...

...Like the alien concept of God having "flesh" with "all the parts of a man".

...That, if true, would mean God has a rectum!

The "rectum" is all the product of your fertile imagination. You will NEVER find that or even hinted at in ANY SDA publication. The Bible clearly says, "God is a Spirit." Having said that, surely, you are familiar with the anthromorphism that the Bible uses about God. He has eyes, hands, feet, hair, He hears, smells. And then ergo - you say He has a "rectum?" Yeah, right!

Quote:

I mean have some of these folks looked up at the meaning of the word "Christ"?

...It's a Title with a very specific meaning.

...That precludes the bearer of it EVER loosing His Salvation.

[/quote']

Anyone smell a Baptist heresy here?

ESV | Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

ESV | Mt 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray.

ESV | 2 Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

[miz3]

Gerry Cabalo,

Please answer my questions and statements on the "bow down and worship" temptation.