Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[Gerr]

Would you care to demonstrate where in Scripture it is taught that Christ was fore-ordained...

...To "VINDICATE GOD'S Law"?????

KJV 1900 | Is 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; He will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

ESV | Mt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Would you care to demonstrate where in Scripture it is taught that Christ was fore-ordained...

...To "VINDICATE GOD'S Law"?????

KJV 1900 | Is 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; He will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

ESV | Mt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

[Gerr]

Widen your horizons, friend! Here's what's been done to the law:

ESV Dan 7:25

He shall speak words against the Most High,

and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,

and shall think to change the times and the law;

and they shall be given into his hand

for a time, times, and half a time.

So when Jesus came to fulfill the law, to magnify & make it honorable, what was He doing to the downtrodden law?

[Gerr]

ps

You came here to tell us our boat is leaky and imply we should jump ship. You still haven't shown which boat to jump to. Until you can show a better boat, I'll stay where I am.

[CoAspen]

CoAspen,

"“You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

John 18:37.

It looks like from this text that Jesus Christ came "to testify to the truth".

What is the Truth? Didn't Jesus Christ say that He was "the way, THE TRUTH, and the life".

Its your ball now.

I give you a quick 'A' in avoidance of the question!

Hmmm... lets see now..how can we get the attention focused on the question that is being avoided by your self and others...If Christ could not have sinned, then how did He save anyone? Wave a magic wand? No, He died for some reason, being missed here.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Still waiting for someone to tell me why Christ was here on earth, if He was not able to have sinned!!

'vindicate the law'...how was that accomplished, to be tempted as a God?? Of course not? Then how about as a human? Yep!! He was both God and human!

By the way, you are selectively quoting.....thats right, you already knew that!!!

Leaving out the humanity of Christ blows this whole ball of wax into nothing! What did this entity accomplish? Doing it as a God, tis not impressive, proves nothing, that is the lie of Satan.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Still waiting for someone to tell me why Christ was here on earth, if He was not able to have sinned!!

'vindicate the law'...how was that accomplished, to be tempted as a God?? Of course not? Then how about as a human? Yep!! He was both God and human!

By the way, you are selectively quoting.....thats right, you already knew that!!!

Leaving out the humanity of Christ blows this whole ball of wax into nothing! What did this entity accomplish? Doing it as a God, tis not impressive, proves nothing, that is the lie of Satan.

[miz3]

vindicate the law'...how was that accomplished, to be tempted as a God?? Of course not? Then how about as a human? Yep!! He was both God and human!

God does not have to vindicate anything to you, or any other human or any other created being.

The arrogance of your humanity, CoAspen, is breath taking! Your assumption that the inferior would pass judgment on the superior is laughable. That is not how the Bible works. The Bible repeatedly states that it is God who will judge and have the final say.

God does not have to justify anything to you. There is no Biblical support whatsoever that you, CoAspen, will ever sit in judgment of God.

Your logic is flawed anyway because your premise is wrong!

[miz3]

CoAspen,

God was here to save your sorry butt and every other human's butt as well.

Instead of being thankful, you arrogantly state that you are going to sit in judgment of God and decide whether He the Creator and Sustainer of your life did a good job or not.

Like I said, it is breath taking the arrogance of such a Doctrine.

You bring the Father and Jesus Christ down below you own feet. Blasphemy!

Have you no shame?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

vindicate the law'...how was that accomplished, to be tempted as a God?? Of course not? Then how about as a human? Yep!! He was both God and human!

God does not have to vindicate anything to you, or any other human or any other created being.

Maybe that's something you need to learn about the God who stoops down and became FLESH, not just any flesh, but laid His divinity aside, and took the form of a SLAVE. Even stooped down to wash the dirty feet of His disciples. Yes, an omniscient God even condescends to perform an Investigative Judgment for OUR sakes, in order to remove all doubt about His love and justice. It's not about the arrogance of CoAspen's or my humanity; it's about the condescension of our infinite God.

[miz3]

Yes, an omniscient God even condescends to perform an Investigative Judgment for OUR sakes, in order to remove all doubt about His love and justice. It's not about the arrogance of CoAspen's or my humanity; it's about the condescension of our infinite God.

So God condescends to remove Gerry Cabalo's doubts. That is a stunning admission Gerry.

You have doubt that God might be fair? You doubt maybe that Christ's sacrifice was not good enough?

You doubt the Promises of God?

Just what about God's love and justice (your words) do you have doubts about, Gerry?

How can you be a Christian with any kinds of doubts about God and His love and justice?

Are saying also that God has failed to give you enough evidence of His love and justice?

Does this mean, Gerry Cabalo, that you don't believe the Cross is enough for you to believe in God's love and justice?

Is that really where you want to stand Gerry? I am stunned by your admission and the absurdity of it all!

[Gustave]

Widen your horizons, friend! Here's what's been done to the law:

ESV Dan 7:25

He shall speak words against the Most High,

and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,

and shall think to change the times and the law;

and they shall be given into his hand

for a time, times, and half a time.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

True - and that explains why Paul spends so much time on the resurrection of Christ in 1Cor 15 and so much time on the High Priestly heavenly ministry of Christ in Heb 4,7,8,9,10...

Amen. Because what Christ is doing right now is as important for our salvation as what He did on the cross. It was absolutely necesary for Christ to ascend to heaven and become our mediator in the heavenly sanctuary above.

The true gospel is about much more than the act of dying on the cross. That was critical and even central, but without the resurrection, the ascension and the mediation of Christ, He could never return for His purified church.

What about the stuff that Christ did BEFORE the cross?

"by His stripes; we are healed."

To me, "Calvary" has come to mean, in a sense, a collective term, signifying events/actions before, during, and after the cross.

[Dr. Waite]

As I understand it, Christ was tempted AFTER or at the END of His 40 day fast. He was near death, at His weakest possible point in His life, physically. That is when the devil came, as an "angel of light". As if he were sent from heavens throne to rescue Christ from His suffering. At first, Jesus was NOT SURE it was Satan! He did not know for sure until Satan spoke. "IF, thou be the son of God...". That was the key, he revealed himself by his words, not by his appearance or actions. Jesus, being familiar with the BIBLE, knew at the moment what He was facing.

Literally dieing of hunger, who among us would have not traded all for even a morsel of bread? When the temptations were over, angels from heaven immediately attended Christ, bringing Him food and drink lest He perish, being at deaths door.

The temptations were very real indeed, as was the possibility of failure. His knowledge of the scriptures played a significant roll in over coming.

When we are tempted, do we know it is Satan until he speaks contrary to the scriptures. The crux of the whole controversy between Christ and Satan is: "If, thou be the son of God".

This is why the Jewish religious leaders found that Jesus Christ was condemned to die. He stated that he is the "Son of God". The religious leaders stated that he committed blasphemy because according to them he was not really the "Son of God".

We have the same teaching today by religious leaders.

The trinity doctrine which originated from the Counsel of Nicea teaches that Christ is NOT really and truly the son of God but only takes a functional role.

Gerhard Pfandl, associate director of the Biblical Research Institute of Seventh-day Adventists states in the publication "The Trinity in Scripture": "The sonship of Jesus, however, is not ontological, but functional. In the plan of salvation each member of the trinity has accepted a particular role."

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, "ontological" means "related to or based upon being or existence".

The first chapter of the Book of Hebrews clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is the "ontological" Son of God.

Be careful that you do not listen to Satan's lies through the teaching of the trinity doctrine.

[addvantage]

John317,

The "Sanctuary Doctrine" will not save you; the "Investigative Judgment Doctrine" will not save you, the "2300 days Doctrine" will not save you, the Doctrine of the "Sabbath" will not save you, etc.!

The only Doctrine that brings SALVATION TO LOST SOULS is:

JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED!

That is why it, and it alone is the Gospel.

It appears that such things are too simple for SDA. Paul was correct in his assessment in 1Corinthians 1:18-31 quoted in previous post.

The Resurrection is not a separate Doctrine from the Cross. These are not two separate Doctrines or concepts. They are ONE DOCTRINE!

However, the same cannot be said for:

the sanctuary, the 2300 days, the investigative judgment, the Sabbath, the state of the dead, etc. These things are not the Gospel!

Even Ellen White agrees with me.

"The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. I present before you the great, grand monument of mercy and regeneration, salvation and redemption--the Son of God uplifted on the cross" (Gospel Workers, p. 315.)

Either it is or it isn't.

No one IS saying there are not other things about Truth to know.

What I am saying is that the Cross of Jesus Christ is the center around which everything else revolves!

I am also saying that SDA don't follow this STANDARD!

SDA make the sanctuary doctrine, the 2300 days, the investigative judgment, their status as the remnant of the remnant their gospel. As such they attempt to make the whole world SDA.

To SDA anything less than making one SDA is a failure. That to me is STUNNING ARROGANCE!

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

[Gerr]

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy."

Happy Sabbath everyone.

[addvantage]

5. SDA Doctrine and Theology has no answer for what the 1335 days mean and the 1290 days mean.

In 1972, I encountered these two time periods. At that time, I calculated them and concluded that the 1290 ended in 1798 and that the 1335 period ended in 1843.

Then I looked to the SDA church's calculations and found that they had stated the exact same thing.

To say that the SDA theology has no answer for these periods is false. I made these calsulations based on my own study, and find that the SDA church has come to the same conclusions. And since that time in 1972, I have seen it written in several places. For you to say that SDAs have no answer, tells me that you have not investigated deeply enough.

[addvantage]

CoAspen,

... you arrogantly state that you are going to sit in judgment of God and decide whether He the Creator and Sustainer of your life did a good job or not.

Like I said, it is breath taking the arrogance of such a Doctrine.

You bring the Father and Jesus Christ down below you own feet. Blasphemy!

Have you no shame?

Absolutely correct! It is written: "God is judged by no man."

and

"All judgment is committed unto the Son."

God is not on trial, not now or ever. No one, not even in the unfallen universe can qualify as a being judge of God or of anything He does.

[Woody]

John 8:14 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go."

8:15 "Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man."

1 Corin. 6:2 "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?"

6:3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

[miz3]

In 1972, I encountered these two time periods. At that time, I calculated them and concluded that the 1290 ended in 1798 and that the 1335 period ended in 1843.

Please explain their meaning?

[ClubV12]

I too, in working out the data and the numbers came up with 1843. But later I did understand how the 1844 date is actually the correct number (year). The "extra" year is a result of a partial year at the beginning and a partial year at the end. Which results in one additional year total, thus, 1844 is the correct date.

1798 is the year the Pope was taken captive by the French, thus the "reign of terror" against God's people was ended.

1844 is the year Daniels 2,300 day/year prophecy concluded.

Of course some folks don't believe the numbers or the meaning or whatever. Let every man be convinced in his own mind. I am! There is no doubt the "math" is accurate, while the details could be argued.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

Either Jesus was human or He was not. My Bible says He was.

Jesus NEVER, not for a split second, ceased to be "God"...

...And the affirmation that He did is the ONLY mechanism which allows God to mutate.

...It happens to be foundational to the Adventist rubric.

...

Originally Posted By: Gerry

You want Bible apologetics? He was called, "Son of Man," "Son of David," "Seed of Abraham." He was human. And humans have free choice - to obey God or disobey Him.

Here we go again - Jesus was also called "Son of God" AT THE SAME TIME...

...He was called 'Son of Man'.

...Therefore in keeping with the Scriptures God became man WITHOUT CEASING TO BE GOD.

That last part which is taught in the Bible was defalcated by the Advenist rubric...

...And unfortunately remains today eternally embedded in Adventist theology.

...Due to Ellen White making it a point of her prophetic utterance.

The teaching that God can mutate or that God only conditionally exists is as horrific as it is blasphemous...

...Eventually the SDA Church will dump this part of it's culture.

...Or will eventually go the way of the Branch Davidians.

Jesus was fully God and fully human at the same time. How He was is a mystery.

I don't think you really know what SDAs believe except for the bits and pieces taken out of their contexts and "pasted" in whatever it is you are reading about us...

either that, and I don't wish to believe it of you, you are deliberately disregarding what we do believe and trying to make us look like we are saying and believing something else.

If it is the former, perhaps you could study our material for yourself--

If it is the latter, well...(shrug) :)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

Still waiting for someone to tell me why Christ was here on earth, if He was not able to have sinned!! Why is the question being ignored in all this twisted semantics about EGW and the Bible? Where is the substance of the discussion? A very twisted circle is being run without gaining ground with out the answer of Christ mission on this earth. All this flaming about peoples understanding and whose position is right accomplishes nothing!!

...Here is the Sacred Scripture teaching WHY Jesus came.

1 John 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin

1 John 3:8

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Here is the SDA teaching as to the "purpose" Christ WAS manifested.

Ellen White

Representing the law of God in its true character arouses the enmity of Satan. Those who love God with all the heart, will love the law of his kingdom. They will not only profess to be guided by its principles, but they will actually live them out, even in a world that is no more favorable to the development of Christian principles than were the inhabitants of the world before the flood, of whom it is written that the thoughts and imaginations of their hearts were evil, and only evil continually. A similar condition of society exists in our world today, and if those who claim to be God's commandment-keeping people do not put in practice the principles of the law which Christ came to our world to vindicate, pronouncing it holy, just, and good, they misrepresent the character and mission of their professed Master

Ellen White

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Christ did not come to change the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. He did not come to lessen the law of God in one particular. He came to express in His own person the love of God. He came to vindicate every precept of the holy law.--Ms 145, 1897, p. 4. ("Notes of Work," Dec. 30, 1897.) {11MR 345.3}

Ellen White

Satan will continue to bring in his erroneous theories and to claim that his sentiments are true. Seducing spirits are at work. I am to meet the danger positively, denying the right of anyone to use my writings to serve the devil's purpose to allure and deceive the people of God. God has spared my life that I may present the testimonies given me, to vindicate that which God vindicates, and to denounce every sophistry [intended] to deceive if possible the very elect.--Ms 126, 1905, pp. 3, 7. ("A Warning Against Present Dangers," typed December 29, 1905.) {5MR 144.1}

Would you care to demonstrate where in Scripture it is taught that Christ was fore-ordained...

...To "VINDICATE GOD'S Law"?????

I find plenty of places where the Bible says Christ came to vindicate humanity or "the world" because God loved us YET I find no place in Scripture which teaches God was a cosmic victim and Satan made God look bad by saying bad stuff about God's law then Jesus came to "vindicate God's law".

...

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

vindicate the law'...how was that accomplished, to be tempted as a God?? Of course not? Then how about as a human? Yep!! He was both God and human!

God does not have to vindicate anything to you, or any other human or any other created being.

The arrogance of your humanity, CoAspen, is breath taking! Your assumption that the inferior would pass judgment on the superior is laughable. That is not how the Bible works. The Bible repeatedly states that it is God who will judge and have the final say.

God does not have to justify anything to you. There is no Biblical support whatsoever that you, CoAspen, will ever sit in judgment of God.

Your logic is flawed anyway because your premise is wrong!

I respectfully disagree. We pass judgment on God every day, all day, when we decide whether we will "obey" or not, whether we will "steal, kill or destroy", or not.

No, God does not "have to", God "chose to", give us some thousands of years to "vindicate" Himself to us. Otherwise He could have just let Adam and Eve suffer the consequences of their sins.

[Gerr]

God condescends to remove Gerry Cabalo's doubts. That is a stunning admission Gerry.

Yeah, my Bible tells me that Jehovah came down in the cool evening breeze to talk to Adam & Eve. That He condescended and came down as an "Angel of the Lord" to talk to Abraham. That the Omnipotent, Omniscient, Jehovah condescended to come in the FLESH, not just ANY flesh, but in the form of a SLAVE. That this might God condescended & stooped down to wash His dirty disciples' feet. That this Omnipotent God condescended to be lashed unmercifully. And condescended to be condemned as a criminal and be hanged on the Cross.

Quote:

You have doubt that God might be fair? You doubt maybe that Christ's sacrifice was not good enough?

I have lots of questions I would like Jesus to answer someday. For instance, how seemingly equally sincere people supposedly all searching for the truth, could arrive at diametrically opposed conclusions.

Quote:

You doubt the Promises of God?

Have ALL your prayers been answered as you asked? Have all the promises you claimed given to you? Someday I want to know why some if not many of my prayers APPEAR to have just been ignored. If you don't have that desire to know, that's your choice, but not mine. There are many things I'm curious about, and if I don't ask questions, I'll just remain ignorant.

Quote:

Just what about God's love and justice (your words) do you have doubts about, Gerry?

How can you be a Christian with any kinds of doubts about God and His love and justice?

Not so much doubts as questions. As I have already stated, if Hitler or Stalin will be there, I'd like to know how that happened. If godly HMS Richard lands in hell, I'd like to know. Any reason why I can't ask questions? If you don't ask question, you'll remain forever ignorant.

Quote:

Are saying also that God has failed to give you enough evidence of His love and justice?

Does this mean, Gerry Cabalo, that you don't believe the Cross is enough for you to believe in God's love and justice?

Is that really where you want to stand Gerry? I am stunned by your admission and the absurdity of it all!

You're asking these questions, why? Is it not your position that I don't have a choice in these matters? If what I'm doing are not the results of my own choices, but rather the result of something predetermined, what does it matter?