miz3 Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 I respectfully disagree. We pass judgment on God every day, all day, when we decide whether we will "obey" or not, whether we will "steal, kill or destroy", or not. No, God does not "have to", God "chose to", give us some thousands of years to "vindicate" Himself to us. Otherwise He could have just let Adam and Eve suffer the consequences of their sins. Of course you are free to disagree, that is your right. However, when you "pass judgment on God.....whether to obey or not..... If you are in doing that as a judge then you are elevating yourself above God, which is blasphemy and is NOT supported by the Bible. However, if you are obeying God as a humble servant because you TRUST Him, that is good. However, if you are disobeying God it is because of your arrogance and also because you DO NOT TRUST Him and this is bad. To elevate yourself to JUDGESHIP is only done by the arrogant and by the doubters. It is a demonstration of lack of Trust in God pure and simple. As to the 1000 years, I would point out the thousand years of Revelation comes AFTER the Second Coming. It does NOT COME BEFORE the Second Coming as an Investigative Judgment. Now if you believe both are judgments we make of God, think about it and how unBiblical it is.
miz3 Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 Not so much doubts as questions. As I have already stated, if Hitler or Stalin will be there, I'd like to know how that happened. If godly HMS Richard lands in hell, I'd like to know. Any reason why I can't ask questions? If you don't ask question, you'll remain forever ignorant.
ClubV12 Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 You know, maybe those "books" will sit there for a thousand years and nobody will even bother to look, or bother to ask? But just in case they do have a question, and sometimes you just need to know, not that you doubt anybody, you just need to know, the books are there. For a limited time! Afterwards, every tear will be wiped away and there will be no more sorrow. We will not recall our greatest trials, time to move on. But not for a 1,000 years, just in case someone wants to know.
miz3 Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 ClubV12, You realize that the thousand year period you speak of occurs after the Second Coming and not before? If this is the Investigative Judgment than there is no pre-advent judgment! Sounds to me that SDA need to get their Doctrine straight as to when things are to occur!
ClubV12 Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 Well I guess I need to be more careful about what set of "books" were referencing. Clearly I was speaking of the 1,000 year period of review after the 2nd coming. "We" won't be reviewing any "heavenly books" before then. A Hitler/Stalin review won't take place by "us" before then.
miz3 Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 So why the need for the Investigative Judgment, or pre-advent judgment before the Second Coming if everything is going to be cleared up during the 1000 years? Is Gerry Cabalo and the SDA position wrong? I agree that the Bible does state that a Judgment occurs AFTER the Second Coming but I don't see any big Generalized Judgment BEFORE the Second Coming.
ClubV12 Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 It won't be cleared up during the 1,000 years. It will be FINISHED before that time. Everyone will have a chance to review the evidence in due time, which is my interpretation of the Saints sitting in Judgment. In other words, more accurately, the Saints are reviewing the Judgement that has been accomplished (1 Cor. 6:3, I think it is).
Moderators Gerr Posted May 14, 2011 Moderators Posted May 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: GerryCabalo Not so much doubts as questions. As I have already stated, if Hitler or Stalin will be there, I'd like to know how that happened. If godly HMS Richard lands in hell, I'd like to know. Any reason why I can't ask questions? If you don't ask question, you'll remain forever ignorant. Your statement above is clear enough, Gerry. You have doubts God knows what He is doing. You want to make sure that God is really being just. Right now, I am taking everything by faith on incomplete evidence. Paul says, someday we shall know as we are known. Is it so bad that I want to know how God did this and how He did that? If you don't want to know, that's your business. And if I want to know, I don't think it's any of yours. Quote: If it is not about doubts, Gerry, then what business is it of yours who God lets in who God leaves out. Unless, you have doubts, Gerry, that is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! As I said, if you don't want to know, that's your business. If I want to know, that's none of your business. Quote: Surely you wonder about all the other stuff God is not telling you (since you don't know everything and God does then God knows stuff you don't). Why is God withholding those things from you, Gerry? For what purpose does God keep records? Your line sounds a lot like the Snake's line to Eve in the Garden of Eden! Hmmm! That was all about doubt too! Like I said, if its not doubt then it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! Originally Posted By: miz3 Are saying also that God has failed to give you enough evidence of His love and justice? Does this mean, Gerry Cabalo, that you don't believe the Cross is enough for you to believe in God's love and justice? Is that really where you want to stand Gerry? I am stunned by your admission and the absurdity of it all! Can you not answer these questions? You were very evasive. I have no doubt that God loves me. However, there are things that happened in my life that SEEM contrary to that belief. Someday I want to know the hows and wherefors. Again, if you don't want to know, that's your business. If I want to know it's none of your business. If that stuns you, that's your problem!
miz3 Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 I have no doubt that God loves me. However, there are things that happened in my life that SEEMS contrary to that belief. Someday I want to know the hows and wherefors. Again, if you don't want to know, that's your business. If I want to know it's none of your business. If that stuns you, that's your problem! OK, OK, Gerry! Don't get your big boy pants all in a wad. If what you say above is true, then when do your questions get answered? Is it before the 2nd Coming, or is it after the 2nd Coming?
Woody Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 miz3 - we will be studying for all of eternity . May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
miz3 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Thank you Woody as usual you are correct. That means there will always be questions and God has all the answers. I am however, still perplexed as to the need for and IJ when books will be opened also after the Second Coming. Gerry seems to indicate that His questions regarding the Books will be answered before the Second Coming and I see no Biblical support for this.
Woody Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Okay. I havevn't read Gerry saying that. Not saying he didn't. But it doesn't sound like Gerry to me. We all have to review the books when we get to heaven. That's why there is the thousand years of book learning. Look Gerry is a con. And cons love the opportunity to review the books. So, I just can't see Gerry not wanting a thousand years to reveiew them books. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
miz3 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Woody, I have no problem with questions to God or looking at His Books. The problem is when would be the Biblical time to this? According to SDA theology which they get from Ellen White is that there is an Investigative Judgment, (a massive process) that takes place before the Second Coming. Such a process started in 1844 and continues until Christ's Second Coming. (This is not an ordinary question time of God about this and that, that might peak our curiosity. It is about investigating God and His Government to see that no malfeasance has occurred). SDA further claim that such a Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is held by them from the Bible and the Bible only. I disagree, because the Bible says nothing about such a huge process before the Second Coming regardless what name you want to call it. I have asked for Bible support to demonstrate that SDA are a Bible and Bible only Church and that this IJ Doctrine comes from the Bible. Gerry Cabalo is a nice guy and I enjoy our back and forth. I love his passion for what he believes but in this case he is wrong.
Woody Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I am still not clear on what you think Gerry is wrong about on this issue. I haven't heard Gerry denying that there will be book lookin' in heaven. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
CoAspen Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 CoAspen, God was here to save your sorry butt and every other human's butt as well. Instead of being thankful, you arrogantly state that you are going to sit in judgment of God and decide whether He the Creator and Sustainer of your life did a good job or not. Like I said, it is breath taking the arrogance of such a Doctrine. You bring the Father and Jesus Christ down below you own feet. Blasphemy! Have you no shame? I an trying to decide what type of filter you apply to peoples posts other than those that agree with you!! I have no idea what you are responding too!! There is obviously something about truth that bothers you.... a whole lot!!! One last attempt at clarification......filters off...pretty please!! Christ came to this earth to show the real image of God. He came also to save mankind by paying the price for sin, His law commanded that sinners must die. Satans lie was that we could accomplish all on our own. Christ came as God and man, something we can not comprehend or understand, was tempted as a man and relying on God the Father resisted. Was hung on the cross for our sins, vanquishing death and rose from the grave. End of story!! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!!!! Works for me and no amount of picking over supposed details or philosophy of such changes my mind! Focusing on 'minors' derails the 'major'! Who truly wants to do that??
Woody Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Quote: Christ came to this earth to show the real image of God. He came also to save mankind by paying the price for sin, His law commanded that sinners must die. Satans lie was that we could accomplish all on our own. Christ came as God and man, something we can not comprehend or understand, was tempted as a man and relying on God the Father resisted. Was hung on the cross for our sins, vanquishing death and rose from the grave. End of story!! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!!!! Works for me and no amount of picking over supposed details or philosophy of such changes my mind! Focusing on 'minors' derails the 'major'! Who truly wants to do that?? Well put together CoA. Good job man. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
miz3 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I am still not clear on what you think Gerry is wrong about on this issue. I haven't heard Gerry denying that there will be book lookin' in heaven. Gerry is wrong in that this book lookin will take place during the Investigative Judgment that takes place before the 2nd Coming. That's it unless Gerry or someone else can point to Scripture to say otherwise.
Moderators Gerr Posted May 15, 2011 Moderators Posted May 15, 2011 So why the need for the Investigative Judgment, or pre-advent judgment before the Second Coming if everything is going to be cleared up during the 1000 years? Is Gerry Cabalo and the SDA position wrong? I agree that the Bible does state that a Judgment occurs AFTER the Second Coming but I don't see any big Generalized Judgment BEFORE the Second Coming. Elementary, Mr. miz3. Because the separation of the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the chaff, the foolish from the wise virgins, the tares from the wheat, the good from the bad fish, the wise & faithful servant from unfaithful, those that say, "Lord, Lord" but don't do His will from those who do, BEFORE the second coming. To hold a judgment AFTER the verdicts have been given is totally absurd.
ClubV12 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I believe that is correct Gerry. While we call it a "judgement" AFTER the 2nd coming, it is really a two fold event. A REVIEW of the already given Judgement AND the sentencing phase at the end of that review. So, I guess the question is: When did this investigative Judgement start and when will it end? My position is the same as the commonly accepted SDA, it began in 1844 and will end just before the 2nd coming. And THEN we will review it, finalize it and God will carry it out to conclusion.
miz3 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Christ came to this earth to show the real image of God. He came also to save mankind by paying the price for sin, His law commanded that sinners must die. Satans lie was that we could accomplish all on our own. Christ came as God and man, something we can not comprehend or understand, was tempted as a man and relying on God the Father resisted. Was hung on the cross for our sins, vanquishing death and rose from the grave. End of story!! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!!!! Works for me and no amount of picking over supposed details or philosophy of such changes my mind! Focusing on 'minors' derails the 'major'! Who truly wants to do that?? Your general message cited above I have no problem with. As Woody says, good job! That however, does not answer the question and/or questions I have been asking. Again, I have no quarrel with what you cited above. Nothing I have said would be against that. You must be using my quoted words out of the context of a previous exchange in which you were not pitching what you cited above but instead were pitching something else. So what's the beef?
Woody Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I believe that is correct Gerry. While we call it a "judgement" AFTER the 2nd coming, it is really a two fold event. A REVIEW of the already given Judgement AND the sentencing phase at the end of that review. So, I guess the question is: When did this investigative Judgement start and when will it end? My position is the same as the commonly accepted SDA, it began in 1844 and will end just before the 2nd coming. And THEN we will review it, finalize it and God will carry it out to conclusion. Excellent May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
miz3 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Elementary, Mr. miz3. Because the separation of the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the chaff, the foolish from the wise virgins, the tares from the wheat, the good from the bad fish, the wise & faithful servant from unfaithful, those that say, "Lord, Lord" but don't do His will from those who do, BEFORE the second coming. To hold a judgment AFTER the verdicts have been given is totally absurd.
Moderators Gerr Posted May 15, 2011 Moderators Posted May 15, 2011 SDA further claim that such a Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is held by them from the Bible and the Bible only. I disagree, because the Bible says nothing about such a huge process before the Second Coming regardless what name you want to call it. I have asked for Bible support to demonstrate that SDA are a Bible and Bible only Church and that this IJ Doctrine comes from the Bible. You asked for Bible support and the Bible alone. We have given you Scripture after Scripture. Maybe they went over your head. So here it goes again. 1. There will be a judgment for ALL. ESV | 2 Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. 2. Judgment begins in the house of God. ESV | 1 Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 3. Because: ESV | Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. The gospel net brings in bad & good fish, Mt 13. There are tares & wheat in God's kingdom, Mt Mt 13; Wise & foolish, Mt 25. 4. Judgment is according to works. ESV | Ec 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil. See also Rom 2:6, Rev 20:12 5. Since God judges according to works, He therefore keeps records. ESV | Re 20:12 And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And even all words ever spoken, ESV | Mt 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” 6. Judgment of those who have professed to be believers takes place before Jesus comes. Jesus said of the wheat & the tares/weeds - ESV | Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ” And, ESV | Mt 13:39 The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Therefore the separation of the wheat from the tares, the wise from the foolish, those who have the garment of Christ's righteousness from those who remain in their street clothes, etc. takes place BEFORE He comes. 7. That judgment process is seen in the scene depicted by Dan in ESV | Da 7:9 “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. 10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened. 8. This judgment is NOT to inform God. It is to inform anyone and everyone who wants to see how God has dealt with sin and sinners so that sin can never rise again. There are obviously a lot more that could be said, but this is just a very brief presentation of what I believe to be the truth.
addvantage Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 1Timothy 5 24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. 25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid. Leviticus 16 16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. Leviticus 16 29. And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: 30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. Leviticus 23 27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. 28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. 29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. 30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Exodus 25 9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it. 40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount. Hebrews 8 1. Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. Hebrews 9 1. Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. 6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8. The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. 19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. addvantage
Moderators Gerr Posted May 15, 2011 Moderators Posted May 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: GerryCabalo Elementary, Mr. miz3. Because the separation of the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the chaff, the foolish from the wise virgins, the tares from the wheat, the good from the bad fish, the wise & faithful servant from unfaithful, those that say, "Lord, Lord" but don't do His will from those who do, BEFORE the second coming. To hold a judgment AFTER the verdicts have been given is totally absurd. It is true that God separates the good and bad. Well, now we have at least a point of agreement. If God is going to do that, an investigation has to be done to establish who is good and who is bad. Again, God is omniscient, so this is not to inform God. He knows. Rather this is to inform those who wonder why monsters like Stalin or Hitler are in heaven if they wind up there, or why people like Luther or Billy Graham or any loved one they may have considered to be saints are in hell if they happen to wind up there. Quote: However, such a separation does not take God from 1844 until the Second Coming to do or know that. Again, if that judgment were for God's benefit, He could do it in a split micro-second. Quote: Besides there is not Biblical Evidence that such big confab takes place just before Christ comes. God has been doing that all along throughout human history. Such a scene is depicted in Dan 7:9-10. That scene plainly takes place before Christ comes to share His kingdom with the saints. Whether that judgment has been going on non-stop or intermittently since 1844 I can't say for sure. But I believe it may be intermittent because there may be cases that come up before the "heavenly watchers" that come up before the court like Belshazzar or something similar. When Christ went to heaven after the resurrection, He entered into the heavenly sanctuary to begin His intermediary/intercessory work as typified by the earthly sanctuary service. The book of Hebrews is devoted to this heavenly sanctuary ministry. Quote: Quote: Your Doctrine of Investigative Judgment seems to be: 1. Starts in 1844 and continues until the 2nd Coming. 2. One purpose is so that God's Creation can be assured that God is just in all His decisions and actions. 3. Second purpose is to separate the good from the bad, the wise from the foolish, etc. Is the a correct encapsulation of the Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment as you Gerry Cabalo believe it? I would also add that a major if not the central point of the Judgment is to VINDICATE God's character in His handling of the sin problem. So much so that even Satan himself will bow the knee, for His "righteous acts have been revealed," Rev 15:4. If you really want to know what the Adventist Church really believe on this subject, I would encourage you to consult the official church publications, or those more articulate than me.
Recommended Posts