The 1896 Sabbath School Lesson -- What changed?

[Dr. Rich]

Good points sky. Makes for some interesting thought!

[skyblue888]

Good points sky. Makes for some interesting thought!

Brother Rich! you actually agree with the above post?

sky

[miz3]

Being legally right doesn't mean your ethically or morally right. I'd rather be legally wrong and morally right, myself.

I agree with this!

I guess we can agree on some things, brother ClubV12.

[Gustave]

Maybe you have not read the RFRA thread? The reason we took the name "Creation Seventh Day Adventist" was because of a divine mandate from God. Even the civil court has recognized this. They just don't care about what God says.

You do not have to believe that God told us to use the name. Fine; for you should live out your own beliefs. You must come before "the judgment seat of Christ" one day, just as I will.

I ALWAYS obey the voice of God to ME. I do not allow others to dissuade me from perfect obedience.

When Abraham was taking his son for human sacrifice, you would have (no doubt) condemned him. How can I expect you to do any less to me?

We discussed this very thing many years ago on your own discussion forums....

...The thread was about "Church authority" and how it was exercised in the New Testament.

...As well as in the Old.

As I recall you surrendered that discussion and while I find SDA theology abhorrent...

...The General Conference was right to protect their own special sauce of heretical teachings.

If you openly repudiated some of the maggoty teachings the GC still holds...

...Such as a mutation capable Christ.

...You would increase your flock by scores.

...Than build on from there.

[Pastor_Chick]

We have absolutely no ground for condoning what the church does with those whom they deem unworthy of the Seventh-day Adventist name and looking to the civil authorities in order to do away with them.

sky

And, let me add a point worth considering seriously.

While being "corporately accountable" for what the "leading men" are doing, the "members in good standing" (including members of any standing) "partake in their evil deeds."

This very act of "doing away" with certain people, whether "heretics" or not, demonstrates beyond the shadow of doubt that the SDA Church has lost the "love of Christ" and totally refused the message of "righteousness by faith."

[ClubV12]

Like Joshua stood with the people of God, in the good times and the bad, so I will stand also. These are my people I will not abandon them even though we wander in the wilderness.

[skyblue888]

Club: Until you are forced out by your own people. This is what happened to the disciples of Christ and to the Reformers. Right?

Pastor Chick. When I think of you and your followers I can't help but think of what happened at the time prior to the birth of Christ. It is written that by then "Sin had become a science and vice was consecrated as a part of religion. Rebellion had struck its roots deep into the heart, and the hostility of man was most violent against Heaven." D.A. 37.

This was true, not only of the whole world, but also of the Jewish people who professed to be the pillar and ground of the truth. (D.A.36)

Then we read, "With intense interest the unfallen worlds had watched to see Jehovah arise, and sweep away the inhabitants of the earth." Ibid, 37.

Are not many today expecting the very same thing? Many among Seventh-day Adventists today are expecting Jehovah to arise and punish the world for its iniquity. At the same time there are many adventists who are expecting Jehovah to arise and to pusish the church for its rebellion and defiance. There are those who believe that we are now living in the time of the fulfillment of the angel of Ezekiel 9, the angel of death. They expect the slaughter of millions of adventists at a time when the Lord is about to pour out the Holy Spirit in large measure upon men and women of His own choosing that they may be enabled to give the last message of mercy to the church and to the world.

So the unfallen worlds were expecting Jehovah to arise and to sweep away the inhabitants of the earth. Now notice the following words very carefully:

"But instead of destroying the world, God sent His Son to save it. Though corruption and defiance might be seen in every part of the alien province, a way for its recovery was provided. At the very crisis, when Satan seemed about to triumph, the Son of God came with the embassage of divine grace. Through every age, through every hour, the love of God had been exercised toward the fallen race. Notwithstanding the perversity of men, the signals of mercy had been continually exhibited. And when the fullness of the time had come, the Deity was glorified by pouring upon the world a flood of healing grace that was never to be obstructed or withdrawn till the plan of salvation should be fulfilled." Ibid, 37.

We cannot deny that the same rebellion and defiance that were prevailing in those days exist today, in the church and in the world. Once again the fullness of the time has come. Many in the church and in the world are watching to see Jehovah arise and sweep away the inhabitants of the earth. But again, instead of destroying the world, the Deity will be glorified by pouring upon the church first and then the world a flood of healing grace that is never to be obstructed or withdrawn till the close of probation when the mission of the Gospel shall be completed.

But if those who have been called to be the pillar and ground of the truth resist this flood of healing grace and persecute the bearers of that last message of mercy, that church will seal her rejection of God's mercy and the bearers of the message and their converts will be forced to turn to the world with their message and it will swell into the loud cry. And when the mission of the Gospel is completed the judgment of the living will accomplish the final separation between the good and the evil and their destiny will be forever fixed.

sky

A way for its recovery is provided:

"Faith is the condition upon which God has promised pardon to sinners; not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." F.W.100,101.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." 5 T 744

[ClubV12]

It is not clear to me that time has come. When it does, WHAT does it mean for us to do? Cancel our membership from the church? And join with who, what, where? Flee the city and the church? Worship where and with who?

Many people have ideas on this subject, but nothing clear has come to me on the issue.

[skyblue888]

Not clear? Club, Did you not read the statements? At the time for Christ to be born the fullness of the time had come. This was not the time to cancel one's membership. Where does it say that?

I think you should re-read that post but this time say a little prayer before.

Did not a doomsday prophet by the name of Camping with 200 million followers expect to be secretly raptured on May 21 and did they not expect the rest of the world to perish amid earthquakes and what not?

Are not many adventists who have left the adventist church expecting God to slaughter millions of adventists any time now?

sky

*may be you have not been on this site long enough to read the threads about all this.

The fullness of the time had come when Jesus was about to return, shortly after Oct.22,1844. After this long delay, why should it be so difficult to believe that this time has come?

[skyblue888]

Club, are you going to respond? :)

[Pastor_Chick]

Like Joshua stood with the people of God, in the good times and the bad, so I will stand also. These are my people I will not abandon them even though we wander in the wilderness.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Like Joshua stood with the people of God, in the good times and the bad, so I will stand also. These are my people I will not abandon them even though we wander in the wilderness.

Club,

Faithfulness must be to God only. Christ posed the question, "Who is my mother, or my brethren?" (Mark 3:33)

The answer is simply, "...whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother." (Mark 3:35)

There is a time when "the family" is divided, and it happens by the call of God Himself, "Come out of her, My people." In the book of Revelation, chapter 18, you read of this divine calling out. What causes it? The answer is there.

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. [...] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." (Rev. 18:3, 5)

NOTE:

1) fornication with the kings of the earth

This is the "unholy union of church and state."

2) the merchants have waxed rich

This is the inclusion of commerce in the church to the expense of souls (loving money more than people).

3) sins have reached unto heaven and God has remembered her iniquities. This indicates the judgment of the living wherein either sins are blotted out or names are blotted out.

Pastor Chick

________________________________

Pastor Chick, sorry to say but that message will not be present truth until the sins of Babylon will have reached unto heaven. Rev.18:5.

And we are able to ascertain from the prophetic word just what event will bring Babylon to the place where her sins will have reached unto heaven. Here are two statements, which, when read together give us the information we are seeking.

"A time is coming when the law of God is, in a special sense, to be made void in the land. The rulers of our nation will, by legislative enactments, enforce the Sunday law, and thus God's people will be brought into great peril. When our nation, in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance and bringing oppressive power to bear against those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in our land; and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin." RH Dec.18, 1888.

"The sins of the world will have reached unto heaven when the law of God is made void, when the Sabbath of the Lord is trampled in the dust, and men are compelled to accept in its stead an institution of the papacy through the strong hand of the law of the land. In exalting an institution of man above the institution ordained of God, they show contempt for the great Lawgiver, and refuse His sign or seal." Review and Herald, Nov.5, 1899.

So the sins of Babylon the Great wil have reached unto heaven when the law of God is made void in the land by the enactment of the National Sunday Law. Then the message "Come out of her My people," will be present truth for her sins will have reached unto heaven, not before.

In addition to the above there is also the statement from Testimonies Volume 5:451, where the same truth is expressed as follows, "By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness."

To disconnect one's self from righteousness is to come where one can go no further in departing from the living God. This is to fill up the measure of iniquity and guilt and to have one's sins reach unto heaven itself.

And when will this be accomplished? It will be accomplished by the making of the decree which will enforce the worship of the institution of the Papacy which we know to be the enforcement of the Sunday law.

sky

*the judgment of the living has nothing to do with the fall of Babylon the Great. It comes at the end of the loud cry when the mission of the Gospel is completed, as shown in the parables of the net and of the wedding garment.

[Guest]

I do believe that's right sky...

[skyblue888]

Amen Richard. We are in danger of going ahead of the Lord if we think that the message of Rev.18:1-5 is present truth before her sins have reached unto heaven and we cannot place the judgment of the living before the loud cry since the Word of God places it after the third call of the parable of the wedding garment. The third call represents the giving of the loud cry. In the parable the king comes into the room to examine the guests at the end of the third call. (Matt.22:11)

And we have the words of inspiration from the book Christ's Object Lessons which state the very state thing.

"When the mission of the Gospel is completed, the work of judgment will accomplish the work of separation."

"When the work of the gospel is completed, there immediately follows the separation between the good and the evil, and the destiny of each class is forever fixed." pp.122,123.

How much more clear does the Lord have to be?

sky

[Light Fox]

Hi Sky,

I can appreciate a lot of your points, but it seems that there is an underlying misunderstanding about the point of view you're each coming from. As I understand it, you are saying that the image of the beast and it's mark are what causes Rev 18 to become present truth.

I believe Pastor Chick agrees with that, from what I've read. The issue is arising in what that means. You are looking at a Sunday law. Pastor Chick's view is that the trademark on the name Seventh-day Adventist fulfills the Sunday law prophecy, and actually is the mark of the beast imposed by an image of the Papacy.

So, while I think the timelines you are both putting out are somewhat similar if not identical, because you have different views on what the mark is, you are coming from different angles on where we are now in the prophetic timeline. The CSDA view is that the "Sunday law" is here, and has been here for over 20 years, in the form of a formerly Protestant church forming an image to Rome and persecuting with civil power over a religious duty. As a result, the judgment of the living has begun (see another thread), the CSDA church was called out as the 144,000, and the probation of the Adventist denomination as an organized body closed when they, in 1988, placed an Adventist minister in jail for the first time (cf. stoning of Stephen).

Hopefully that will help clarify the discussions a little bit, and either of you, feel free to correct me if I've misstated the particulars of your views. It seems the discussion has largely been, as of late, on the issue of "when to leave" however - and from the quarterly that started this discussion, that appears to be when the church persecutes with civil power, forming an image to Rome. It appears that you agree on the things you say must happen first, but that the CSDA view is, in essence, those things have already happened.

[miz3]

Faithfulness must be to God only. Christ posed the question, "Who is my mother, or my brethren?" (Mark 3:33)

The answer is simply, "...whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother." (Mark 3:35)

There is a time when "the family" is divided, and it happens by the call of God Himself, "Come out of her, My people." In the book of Revelation, chapter 18, you read of this divine calling out. What causes it? The answer is there.

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. [...] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." (Rev. 18:3, 5)

I agree that "faithfulness to God" is the only faithfulness we are totally and eternally obligated to!

As a former SDA you should know that for many SDA the "Church" is the what they are most obligated to. The SDA Leadership has fostered this loyalty almost from its inception.

Having said that are you saying that God has DIRECTLY CALLED YOU PASTOR CHICK TO FORM THE TRUE CHURCH by leaving the SDA Church?

Are you saying that the SDA Church has "made an image to the beast (the Roman Catholic Church)?

Did God DIRECTLY tell you that the SDA Church has committed the image to the Beast, the Romans Catholic Church?

Are you Pastor Chick a Prophet who receives DIRECT MESSAGES from God in a way that is not given to other humans in general?

As God's Prophet and Messenger are you "inspired" just as Ellen White is "inspired"?

Would you please answer each of these six questions with six clear and unambiguous answers. Thank you Pastor chick.

[skyblue888]

Hi Sky,

I can appreciate a lot of your points, but it seems that there is an underlying misunderstanding about the point of view you're each coming from. As I understand it, you are saying that the image of the beast and it's mark are what causes Rev 18 to become present truth.

I believe Pastor Chick agrees with that, from what I've read. The issue is arising in what that means. You are looking at a Sunday law. Pastor Chick's view is that the trademark on the name Seventh-day Adventist fulfills the Sunday law prophecy, and actually is the mark of the beast imposed by an image of the Papacy.

So, while I think the timelines you are both putting out are somewhat similar if not identical, because you have different views on what the mark is, you are coming from different angles on where we are now in the prophetic timeline. The CSDA view is that the "Sunday law" is here, and has been here for over 20 years, in the form of a formerly Protestant church forming an image to Rome and persecuting with civil power over a religious duty. As a result, the judgment of the living has begun (see another thread), the CSDA church was called out as the 144,000, and the probation of the Adventist denomination as an organized body closed when they, in 1988, placed an Adventist minister in jail for the first time (cf. stoning of Stephen).

Hopefully that will help clarify the discussions a little bit, and either of you, feel free to correct me if I've misstated the particulars of your views. It seems the discussion has largely been, as of late, on the issue of "when to leave" however - and from the quarterly that started this discussion, that appears to be when the church persecutes with civil power, forming an image to Rome. It appears that you agree on the things you say must happen first, but that the CSDA view is, in essence, those things have already happened.

Hi Qinael, please look at these statements again:

"A time is coming when the law of God is, in a special sense, to be made void in the land. The rulers of our nation will, by legislative enactments, enforce the Sunday law, and thus God's people will be brought into great peril. When our nation, in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance and bringing oppressive power to bear against those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in our land; and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin." RH Dec.18, 1888.

"The sins of the world will have reached unto heaven when the law of God is made void, when the Sabbath of the Lord is trampled in the dust, and men are compelled to accept in its stead an institution of the papacy through the strong hand of the law of the land. In exalting an institution of man above the institution ordained of God, they show contempt for the great Lawgiver, and refuse His sign or seal." Review and Herald, Nov.5, 1899.

These two statements have nothing to do with trademark issues. The statements are very clear. They tell us that the sins of Babylon will have reached unto heaven when the law of God shall be made void, that is, when the Sabbath of the Lord shall be trampled in the dust, and men shall be compelled to accept in its stead, Sunday, an institution of the papacy.

This is in the making. It is still in the future.

Of course we agree that when the General Conference looks to the civil authority to protect the name of the church, in that she is following in the track of Rome but this is not the mark of the beast per se as referred to in Revelation 13 and certainly not the fulfillment of Rev.18:5 when the sins of Babylon shall have reached unto heaven.

As stated before, in addition to the above there is also the statement from Testimonies Volume 5:451, where the same truth is expressed as follows, "By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness."

To disconnect one's self from righteousness is to come where one can go no further in departing from the living God. This is to fill up the measure of iniquity and guilt and to have one's sins reach unto heaven itself.

And when will this be accomplished? It will be accomplished by the making of the decree which will enforce the worship of the institution of the Papacy which we know to be the enforcement of the Sunday law.

Therefore the claim that the image of the beast was made when the General Conference, 20 years ago, took the CSDA to court, makes no sense at all and the claim that the judgment of the living began 20 years ago makes no sense either for the Scriptures tell us that it won't commence until the mission of the Gospel has been completed.

Also, in order to become a member of the "144,000" one must first grow up into Christ during the latter rain and loud cry and then have the victory over the beast and his image, successfully pass the buy-and-sell decree and the death decree. Only those who pass these tests successfully can pass the scrutiny of the judgment of the living which takes place almost simultaneously with the great final test prior to receiving the final seal. So the 144,000 will not exist as a group of people until the close of probation, just before they enter into the time of Jacob's trouble. Just as certainly as this is true, just so certainly is the CSDA movement in error.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

I agree that "faithfulness to God" is the only faithfulness we are totally and eternally obligated to!

As a former SDA you should know that for many SDA the "Church" is the what they are most obligated to. The SDA Leadership has fostered this loyalty almost from its inception.

Having said that are you saying that God has DIRECTLY CALLED YOU PASTOR CHICK TO FORM THE TRUE CHURCH by leaving the SDA Church?

Are you saying that the SDA Church has "made an image to the beast (the Roman Catholic Church)?

Did God DIRECTLY tell you that the SDA Church has committed the image to the Beast, the Romans Catholic Church?

Are you Pastor Chick a Prophet who receives DIRECT MESSAGES from God in a way that is not given to other humans in general?

As God's Prophet and Messenger are you "inspired" just as Ellen White is "inspired"?

Would you please answer each of these six questions with six clear and unambiguous answers. Thank you Pastor chick.

[Guest]

It appears that you agree on the things you say must happen first, but that the CSDA view is, in essence, those things have already happened.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the CSDA?

[Pastor_Chick]

Originally Posted By: Qinael

It appears that you agree on the things you say must happen first, but that the CSDA view is, in essence, those things have already happened.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the CSDA?

Richard,

I do not know if you wanted the answer from another poster, but to avoid delay, I can answer you.

CSDA stands for "Creation Seventh Day Adventist."

We are the defendants in the latest SDA trademark lawsuit (which began in 2006). The RFRA thread in Religious Liberty Issues provides many of the particulars.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

4) Are you Pastor Chick a Prophet who receives DIRECT MESSAGES from God in a way that is not given to other humans in general?

ANS: I am a "special messenger" in a similar capacity to Ellen White. I have received direct visions, dreams, and messages from YAHWEH. I have heard the voice of YAHWEH audibly. I have written "testimonies" to church members in the same way Ellen White did her work.

whoaaa

[miz3]

1) Are you saying that God has DIRECTLY CALLED YOU PASTOR CHICK TO FORM THE TRUE CHURCH by leaving the SDA Church?

ANS: Yes, this is true. I was called in 1988 to gather the 144,000 and facilitate them in the soul-cleansing required to be fitted for translation at the second coming of Christ.

2) Are you saying that the SDA Church has "made an image to the beast (the Roman Catholic Church)?

ANS: Yes, the General Conference Corporation of Seventh-day Adventists is the "image of the beast" -- a reflection of the Papacy. It is important to understand that the church is not the image, just like the Catholic Church was not the beast. The people (members) are responsible for what their leaders do, but they only become "guilty before God" when they have been enlightened and can make an intelligent choice on the right side.

3) Did God DIRECTLY tell you that the SDA Church has committed the image to the Beast, the Romans Catholic Church?

ANS: Yes, God showed me this fact in 1990. (Keep in mind the wording I used in ANS number two above.)

4) Are you Pastor Chick a Prophet who receives DIRECT MESSAGES from God in a way that is not given to other humans in general?

ANS: I am a "special messenger" in a similar capacity to Ellen White. I have received direct visions, dreams, and messages from YAHWEH. I have heard the voice of YAHWEH audibly. I have written "testimonies" to church members in the same way Ellen White did her work. I have never, however, claimed infallibility (and neither did EGW).

5) As God's Prophet and Messenger are you "inspired" just as Ellen White is "inspired"?

ANS: Ellen White served a special purpose for the sanctification of the remnant Sabbath-keeping believers. I am called to extend her work to the end of time. I do not want to compare myself to her, for I respect her with my whole heart. She is my sister and fellow bond-servant of YAHWEH. It is believed that I was the one she predicted in Testimonies to Ministers, page 475.

Originally Posted By: EGW

Prophecy must be fulfilled. The Lord says: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord." Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say: "You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message."

The General Conference men will tell you she was referring to herself. But, that is impossible, since she did not live to finish the work.

1. In 1988 God gave you a message stating that the SDA Church was no longer called to be His People and that you were to leave the SDA Church and call out a "new" group. Is this correct?

2. According to your message from God why was this "new" group needed?

3. I see in your answer to question number two above that you make a difference between the "corporate leadership" and the general member population in regards to SDA, Roman Catholicism, etc. Why is this so?

4. When will it be too late even for the general member population of these entities?

5. God showed you in 1990 that the SDA Church had made an image to the beast yet you left SDAism a full two years before. Why this discrepancy?

6. Ok, you and Ellen White are on the same "inspiration" plane. You stated that you are the "prophet" or "special messenger" UNTIL THE END OF TIME. Does that mean you will be translated at the Second Coming along with your followers?

7. Did God tell you how much time we have left until the Second Coming?

Thanks in advance for answering my questions.

[Guest]

Wowwwww!

[Guest]

Is this true Pastor_Chick? I mean about you and Ellen White?

[miz3]

Pasor chick could you please answer these additional questions.

Thanks.

1. In 1988 God gave you a message stating that the SDA Church was no longer called to be His People and that you were to leave the SDA Church and call out a "new" group. Is this correct?

2. According to your message from God why was this "new" group needed?

3. I see in your answer to question number two above that you make a difference between the "corporate leadership" and the general member population in regards to SDA, Roman Catholicism, etc. Why is this so?

4. When will it be too late even for the general member population of these entities?

5. God showed you in 1990 that the SDA Church had made an image to the beast yet you left SDAism a full two years before. Why this discrepancy?

6. Ok, you and Ellen White are on the same "inspiration" plane. You stated that you are the "prophet" or "special messenger" UNTIL THE END OF TIME. Does that mean you will be translated at the Second Coming along with your followers?

7. Did God tell you how much time we have left until the Second Coming?