The 1896 Sabbath School Lesson -- What changed?

[Light Fox]

Another good quote in this vein:

"The spirit that instigates accusation and condemnation in the church which results in uprooting those that are looked upon as evil-doers, has manifested itself in seeking to correct wrongs through the civil power. This is Satan's own method for bringing the world under his dominion; but the Lord Jesus Christ has given us no such example for thus dealing with the erring. God has been misrepresented through the church by this very way of dealing with heretics; he has been represented as the one who empowered the church to do these wicked things.

Those who have differed from the established doctrines have been imprisoned, put to torture and to death, because the dignitaries of the church could not endure those who dissented from ideas which these leaders deemed to be true. Satan himself is the sower of tares; but even though he he is the sower of them, they are not to be rooted up, lest by chance the wheat be rooted up with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time. Fiendish zeal has been manifested in excluding dissenters from the fellowship of the church, and passing upon them the sentence of excommunication by which the Roman Church asserted its power of excluding them from all possibility of entering heaven.

How does heaven look upon such things? With what amazement do angels hear men judging and condemning their brethren, causing them most cruel suffering of body and mind, and claiming that they do it under the sanction of God? Instead of being under the leadership of Christ, they are following the leadership of Satan. Paul at one time pursued this course, actually believing that he was doing God service; but Jesus spoke to him, and told him that in persecuting his saints he was persecuting him. All persecution, all force employed to compel conscience, is after Satan's own order; and those who carry out these designs are his agents to execute his hellish purpose. In following Satan's cruel proposals, in becoming his agents, men become the enemies of God and his church, and will be judged in that great day by that man whom God hath ordained; for he hath committed all judgment into the hands of his Son." [ARSH, Jan 10, 1893. Paragraphs 8-10]

Something I find interesting about this quote is it doesn't actually intimate that the people in question were not heretics, or in error for differing from established doctrines. Regardless - even if they are heretics, even if they are wrong - all force employed to compel conscience is after Satan's own order.

[skyblue888]

Actually, I agree with Pastor Chick on not wishing to respond to miz3's rather rude questioning and insistence on getting an answer. Indeed, this line of questioning passed the search for truth and crossed into more of an "inquisition" at some point. I'm not even "inspired" and can see that.

That's right.

sky

[skyblue888]

Another good quote in this vein:

"The spirit that instigates accusation and condemnation in the church which results in uprooting those that are looked upon as evil-doers, has manifested itself in seeking to correct wrongs through the civil power. This is Satan's own method for bringing the world under his dominion; but the Lord Jesus Christ has given us no such example for thus dealing with the erring. God has been misrepresented through the church by this very way of dealing with heretics; he has been represented as the one who empowered the church to do these wicked things.

Those who have differed from the established doctrines have been imprisoned, put to torture and to death, because the dignitaries of the church could not endure those who dissented from ideas which these leaders deemed to be true. Satan himself is the sower of tares; but even though he he is the sower of them, they are not to be rooted up, lest by chance the wheat be rooted up with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time. Fiendish zeal has been manifested in excluding dissenters from the fellowship of the church, and passing upon them the sentence of excommunication by which the Roman Church asserted its power of excluding them from all possibility of entering heaven.

How does heaven look upon such things? With what amazement do angels hear men judging and condemning their brethren, causing them most cruel suffering of body and mind, and claiming that they do it under the sanction of God? Instead of being under the leadership of Christ, they are following the leadership of Satan. Paul at one time pursued this course, actually believing that he was doing God service; but Jesus spoke to him, and told him that in persecuting his saints he was persecuting him. All persecution, all force employed to compel conscience, is after Satan's own order; and those who carry out these designs are his agents to execute his hellish purpose. In following Satan's cruel proposals, in becoming his agents, men become the enemies of God and his church, and will be judged in that great day by that man whom God hath ordained; for he hath committed all judgment into the hands of his Son." [ARSH, Jan 10, 1893. Paragraphs 8-10]

Something I find interesting about this quote is it doesn't actually intimate that the people in question were not heretics, or in error for differing from established doctrines. Regardless - even if they are heretics, even if they are wrong - all force employed to compel conscience is after Satan's own order.

Great quotes.

Thank you for sharing.

sky

[miz3]

I was NOT inquisitioning Pastorchick!

I was merely trying to find out what he and his group are all about. If you read pastorchick's responses they are very revealing. I am only attempting to get at the Truth about who pastorchick and his people are. I see nothing wrong with that.

I do not need to "destroy" pastorchick and his group, for he knows that responding to legitimate questions will expose him for what he is and that it will be his responses that destroy him.

He claims to be persecuted by the SDA Church, persecuted by the civil authority, persecuted by my questions, it seems we just might be seeing a pattern developing here.

There is no animus here only curiosity. Pastorchick and Qinael are only trying to say they are being pursued by "hatred" in order to take the onus off themselves and put it on to others.

[ClubV12]

"I was NOT inquisitioning Pastorchick!"

Well OK then, I stand corrected, sort of, I think, could be...

Seriously you are right about one thing, Pastor Chicks responses leave it pretty clear where he and his group are coming from, how they got there and where there going. I think I've heard enough to frame my opinion on the matter based solely on the testimony already provided.

[CoAspen]

I have a question...why would anyone pursue 'victim hood'??

Such a position will only get a person so far in life, then it becomes a mental issue when perused further.

[Pastor_Chick]

And they put up above His head the charge against Him which read, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." At that time two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and one on the left. And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross." In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him, and saying, "He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we shall believe in Him. "HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET HIM DELIVER Him now, IF HE TAKES PLEASURE IN HIM; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.'" And the robbers also who had been crucified with Him were casting the same insult at Him. (Matt. 27:37-44)

The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? (Matt. 10:24, 25)

The servant is not above his master. The Prince of heaven was called Beelzebub, and His disciples will be misrepresented in like manner. But whatever the danger, Christ's followers must avow their principles. They should scorn concealment. They cannot remain uncommitted until assured of safety in confessing the truth. They are set as watchmen, to warn men of their peril. The truth received from Christ must be imparted to all, freely and openly. Jesus said, "What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops."

Jesus Himself never purchased peace by compromise. His heart overflowed with love for the whole human race, but He was never indulgent to their sins. He was too much their friend to remain silent while they were pursuing a course that would ruin their souls, [...] The servants of Christ are called to the same work, and they should beware lest, in seeking to prevent discord, they surrender the truth. They are to "follow after the things which make for peace" (Rom. 14:19); but real peace can never be secured by compromising principle. And no man can be true to principle without exciting opposition. A Christianity that is spiritual will be opposed by the children of disobedience. But Jesus bade His disciples, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." Those who are true to God need not fear the power of men nor the enmity of Satan. In Christ their eternal life is secure. Their only fear should be lest they surrender the truth, and thus betray the trust with which God has honored them. (DA 355, 356)

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. (John 15:18, 19)

And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me. (Eze. 9:11)

[miz3]

Pastorchick,

When we read the above quotes both from the Bible and Ellen White, one cannot help but get the idea that you are claiming to be a "messiah" in the same manner as Jesus Christ.

Is this what you are claiming?

[ClubV12]

What does THAT question mean? What IS a "messiah"? It's clear Pastor Chick claims to be a "messenger", but Messiah? Where did that come from? Can you imagine Ellen White making that claim? Whew, the question itself leaves my head spinning...

Is this a legitimate question? If so, I must have missed the post that even suggests Pastor Chick is making such a claim! Man, I'm afraid to post any bible verses for fear someone might think I'M claiming to be a "messiah", whatever that means in todays jargon.

[Pastor_Chick]

Scion,

I can follow you for the most part. But, I wanted to respond to the following:

Who owns the name "Seventh-day Adventist?"

I agree with Bob in this: the law in the United States is acknowledging that the General Conference of SDAs owns the name, and therefore have every right to protect it. I am NOT disputing that this is the way "the law works."

What I am questioning is, "Is the law working in accordance with God's will." Can we assume that it is?

Now, you did not (or I did not see it) answer the question you posed, and maybe for some good reason.

My questions to you are these. Have you considered what I posted at the top from the 1896 SSL? AND, can you see any possible application(s) here regarding how "the law works" or if it is working "in accordance with God's will"?

Thank you in advance,

[miz3]

What does THAT question mean? What IS a "messiah"? It's clear Pastor Chick claims to be a "messenger", but Messiah? Where did that come from? Can you imagine Ellen White making that claim? Whew, the question itself leaves my head spinning...

Is this a legitimate question? If so, I must have missed the post that even suggests Pastor Chick is making such a claim! Man, I'm afraid to post any bible verses for fear someone might think I'M claiming to be a "messiah", whatever that means in todays jargon.

You misunderstand. Just because one quotes Scripture or Ellen White does automatically cast them in the "messiah" mold.

However, looking specifically at what pastorchick quoted it was all about Jesus Christ and His sufferings. It looked to me like pastorchick was saying "see I am being persecuted just like this".

Of course pastorchick thinks he is being persecuted by the big bad SDA Church, the big bad civil authority, and by those who do not buy into his con.

Using "messiah" like comments is typical of those who are leading a movement that is fringe and picking a fight with a larger entity who they try and paint as an evil Goliath. Thus, they hope to drum up sympathy for themselves and also hope to gain converts from the publicity.

He may call himself a "messenger" but in reality a closer look reveals he sees himself really as a "messiah". Being a "messenger" does not arouse suspicion to the degree that being a "messiah" would. Yet ultimately these "messengers" do manipulate themselves to be viewed and feared as a "messiah".

Pastorchick and the playbook he is using is as old as humanity.

[Pastor_Chick]

What does THAT question mean? What IS a "messiah"? It's clear Pastor Chick claims to be a "messenger", but Messiah? Where did that come from? Can you imagine Ellen White making that claim? Whew, the question itself leaves my head spinning...

Is this a legitimate question? If so, I must have missed the post that even suggests Pastor Chick is making such a claim! Man, I'm afraid to post any bible verses for fear someone might think I'M claiming to be a "messiah", whatever that means in todays jargon.

[miz3]

In reality, truly "anointed ones" (consecrated servants) have existed throughout the course of the plan of redemption. There is only One Messiah, and the proper language when referring to Him would be "the Messiah" or "the Christ." "A messiah" or "a christ" would normally refer to a consecrated servant of God, and a "false Messiah" or "false Christ" would indicate someone impersonating "the Christ" (or even professing falsely to be an anointed of YAHWEH).

Generally, we could say Moses and Aaron were each "a christ" or to use better wording -- "types of Christ." They were both "anointed" or consecrated for a work representing in "type" the mission of our Savior.

You certainly believe and present yourself as an "anointed one" just as Moses was "anointed", don't you pastorchick?

[skyblue888]

Pastor Chick believes that he is the Elijah that was to come. He said it himself a while ago.

What I have to say about this is that if he really were the Elijah the man he would not make that claim.

I believe Mrs. White was the Elijah the individual as opposed to the Elijah the people.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

What I have to say about this is that if he really were the Elijah the man he would not make that claim.

[...]

sky

"Elijah the man?" Excuse me, sir. You either do not read accurately or you do not fully grasp what you read. Your conclusion is erroneous.

This reminds me of another thread where you corrected me openly, saying the quote that I referred to was not on the post. Do you recall that one?

I do not mind you disagreeing with my beliefs, claims, and/or teachings. That is your liberty of conscience. I do object in principle to your defiling my claims, and still, you are free to do that as well.

Please use something that approaches "righteous judgment" when seeking to defame me. Thank you.

Rather than derailing the topic or supporting the derailing thereof, why not open a thread dedicated to defaming Pastor Chick? In that way, we can clean up these other threads.

[skyblue888]

Pastor Chick, did you not quote from 1 S.M.412 a while ago where the Elijah the individual is being spoken of and did u not infer that you were that individual since 1988?

I was 100% under the impression that you applied that quote from 1 S.M.412 to yourself.

sky

"Elijah the man?" Excuse me, sir. You either do not read accurately or you do not fully grasp what you read. Your conclusion is erroneous."

This reminds me of another thread where you corrected me openly, saying the quote that I referred to was not on the post. Do you recall that one?

Pastor Chick

_______________

Not sure what you are talking about here. What thread and what quote?

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

Pastor Chick, did you not quote from 1 S.M.412 a while ago where the Elijah the individual is being spoken of and did u not infer that you were that individual since 1988?

I was 100% under the impression that you applied that quote from 1 S.M.412 to yourself.

sky

sky,

Here is a direct quote from 1SM 412:

Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say, "You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message."

(As a side here, you, without realizing it, have assisted in the fulfillment of this prophecy.)

I think the words are not difficult to interpret. This individual comes "in the spirit and power of Elijah." It is not unlike what happened with John the Baptist. He ushered in the first advent of Christ. The one prophesied by EGW ushers in the second advent of Christ.

Now, I further believe and teach that ALL who join the "Eli-YAH messenger" become the "Eli-YAH people" who finish the work of preparation "in the spirit and power of Eli-YAH."

[skyblue888]

(As a side here, you, without realizing it, have assisted in the fulfillment of this prophecy.)

How? This prophecy applies to Mrs. White.

Did you apply this quote from 1 S.M.412 to yourself or not as being the Elijah the invidividual which would precede the Elijah the people who are to give the loud cry?

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

(As a side here, you, without realizing it, have assisted in the fulfillment of this prophecy.)

How? This prophecy applies to Mrs. White.

Did you apply this quote from 1 S.M.412 to yourself or not as being the Elijah the invidividual which would precede the Elijah the people who are to give the loud cry?

sky

sky,

I do not enjoy taking side-tracks unnecessarily. I really prefer trying to stay on topic.

Now, you can ask the Master to reveal your fulfillment. I do not have to tell you.

Also, in EGW's statement, she does NOT call "somebody" "Elijah the invidividual." Your re-construction of her quote is flawed.

Let us return to the topic. (or have you partaken of another spirit that you tried to calm?)

[skyblue888]

The answer is simple and clear. It is found in the very next sentence following the quote.

"Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say, "You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message. There are many who cannot distinguish between the work of God and that of man. I shall tell the truth as God gives it to me, and I say now, If you continue to find fault, to have a spirit of variance, you will never know the truth." 1 S.M.412.

The part in blue is the part you left out when you quoted from that page and it is the part that idenfifies Mrs. White as being the Elijah the individual.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

sky,

I do owe you one answer about the "quote" you overlooked and corrected me on (and then forgot about it). Here is the history:

---------------------------------------

On 1888 one more time -- 20/05/2011

Ambassador,

I'll keep my peace for the moment on your take regarding RBF/1888, but I really like your quote from Martin Luther. That brother could relate to why I cannot give up the name of my faith. Thank you.

Pastor Chick

-----------------

From sky:

I didn't see any statement from Luther, at least, ambassador did not give any reference to him by name.

------------------

From Ambassador:

Pastor Chick is talking about my signature.

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V

_________________________

"Unless they thus render my conscience bound by the word of God, I cannot and I will not retract, for it is unsafe for a Christian to speak against his conscience. Here I stand, I can do no other; may God help me."

Martin Luther, Diet of Worms

--------------------------

Is it a reasonable request to take this thread back on topic?

[skyblue888]

"Unless they thus render my conscience bound by the word of God, I cannot and I will not retract, for it is unsafe for a Christian to speak against his conscience. Here I stand, I can do no other; may God help me."

Martin Luther, Diet of Worms

________

That had nothing to do with you directly brother Chick. I asked about that quote because it did not appear at the bottom of his posts. I was just wondering where you had read it from.

What does this have anthing to do with "correcting you openly"???

I simply pointed out that I could not find Ambassador's signature that contained a quote from Luther.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

Is it a reasonable request to take this thread back on topic?

[miz3]

I think the words are not difficult to interpret. This individual comes "in the spirit and power of Elijah." It is not unlike what happened with John the Baptist. He ushered in the first advent of Christ. The one prophesied by EGW ushers in the second advent of Christ.

Now, I further believe and teach that ALL who join the "Eli-YAH messenger" become the "Eli-YAH people" who finish the work of preparation "in the spirit and power of Eli-YAH."

Once again pastorchick is making claims about himself and then when called on it claims persecution, and claims we are "off topic". Yet you are the one who took us off topic by claiming to be the one "coming in spirit and power of Elijah".

You are the one who claims to be a prophet in the same way that Ellen White is a prophet.

You are the one claiming to lead the 144,000 into the Promised Land.

You are the one claiming to have overcome all known sin.

And then you have the hutzpah to say we are off topic when you are called on these things. Do you think we are just going to blindly follow you with out investigating you to see if you are real or whether you are fraudulent.

When legitimate questions are raised you hide behind Scriptural quotes and Ellen White Statements and do not answer the questions.

Sky asked you a straight up question and you are most evasive and intent on sidetracking his inquiries. Is this the way a prophet of God is to behave? Is this the behavior of one who has overcome all known sin?

[Pastor_Chick]

Is it a reasonable request to take this thread back on topic?

Maybe the disease of this wicked generation is worse than we had imagined?

And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? (Eze. 9:8)

And the Son of judgment responded, "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:7, 8)