Does the Bible really teach 1+1=3?

[ClubV12]

Don't forget this part:

"...and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Looks like 3 to me.

[Pastor_Chick]

Don't forget this part:

"...and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Looks like 3 to me.

Club,

The word for "spirit" in the original language from the Strong's Concordance renders as follows:

7307. ruwach, roo'-akh; from H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; fig. life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extens. a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (includ. its expression and functions):--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

Now, please help me understand how that "ruwach" (HEB.) is a "person" in the sense of a "rational being."

AND, also help me understand how it was that the Father said to the Son, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness," and then ONLY two "rational beings" were created. The "Spirit" (or breath of life) was "breathed into his nostrils" as a "life-giving" power, and "man became a living soul." (Gen. 2:7)

I offer Gen. 6:17, for one other example of "ruwach":

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. ("breath" = "ruwach"; HEB.)

Don't feel rushed to give your answer. This may require some prayer and study.

[BarbaraLynn]

Pastor Chick,

Yes, exactly. If the Holy Spirit is a person, I believe that the scripture would say 'our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ, and with the Holy Spirit.'

The Father and Son are 'one' (in spirit). John 17:22 & 23.) If there is another person that is part of the godhead, surely that person would be one in spirit with the Father and Son. This would mean that anyone having fellowship with the Father and Son would have fellowship with the Holy Spirit (if it is a person) as well. But, it was not mentioned.

1+1=2

[BarbaraLynn]

Originally Posted By: BarbaraLynn

I would like to add another scripture here:

1 John 1:3 "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."

This also shows that 1 + 1 = 2

BarbaraLynn,

If the Holy Spirit was a "person," do you think that person would also be in the "fellowship"? What happened?

Sorry, I am new to this forum. The above 'quote' is what my post above is in reference to.

[Pastor_Chick]

Interesting what you chose to comment upon...

[skyblue888]

We need to take the whole of the Scriptures. There are passages that mention the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and there are other passages that only mention the Father and the Son. There is a reason for that as far as the plan of redemption is concerned. At one time Jesus said, "My Father worketh hitherto and I work." John 5:17. By this He meant that they were perpetually at work in all the works of creation but it is only by the Spirit, the Third Person of the Godhead, that they are everywhere present working in and through all, moving in all things.

The Lord's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4), yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. (Ps.139:7)

The Holy Spirit is a Person.

The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal essence, a mere actuating energy from God. It is the Third Person of the Godhead. You cannot grieve an impersonal essence. The Scriptures admonish us not to grieve the Holy Spirit. Eph.4:30. We read, "The Holy Spirit said..." Acts 13:2.

If the Holy Spirit was not a Person He could not be grieved or He could not speak.

Mrs. White certainly understood that the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead.

"Christ determined that when he ascended from this earth, He would bestow a gift on those who had believed on Him, and those who should believe on Him. What gift could He bestow rich enough to signialize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worhty of His greatness and His royalty. He determined to give His representative, the third person of the Godhead. This gift could not be excelled. He would give all gifts in one, and therefore the divine Spirit, that converting, enlightening, and sanctifying power would be His donation." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.6, p.1053; SW Nov.28,1905.

sky

1+1+1=3

[Pastor_Chick]

We need to take the whole of the Scriptures. There are passages that mention the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and there are other passages that only mention the Father and the Son. [...]

sky

[...]

[skyblue888]

What about the rest of my post which contained some evidence??!!

The Lord's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4), yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. (Ps.139:7)

The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal essence, a mere actuating energy from God. It is the Third Person of the Godhead. You cannot grieve an impersonal essence. The Scriptures admonish us not to grieve the Holy Spirit. Eph.4:30. We read, "The Holy Spirit said..." Acts 13:2.

If the Holy Spirit was not a Person He could not be grieved or He could not speak.

Mrs. White certainly understood that the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead.

"Christ determined that when he ascended from this earth, He would bestow a gift on those who had believed on Him, and those who should believe on Him. What gift could He bestow rich enough to signialize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worhty of His greatness and His royalty. He determined to give His representative, the third person of the Godhead. This gift could not be excelled. He would give all gifts in one, and therefore the divine Spirit, that converting, enlightening, and sanctifying power would be His donation." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.6, p.1053; SW Nov.28,1905.

Here is one more:

"Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy but in the fullness of divine power." Desire of Ages, 671.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

What about the rest of my post which contained some evidence??!!

The Lord's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4), yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. (Ps.139:7)

[...]

sky

The Scriptures you have quoted are good ones. I will paste in the passage of Psa. 139 in context to give its full meaning:

4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O [YAHWEH], Thou dost know it all.

5 Thou hast enclosed me behind and before, And laid Thy hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot attain to it.

7 Where can I go from Thy Spirit [ruwach; HEB.]? Or where can I flee from Thy presence?

8 If I ascend to heaven, Thou [YAHWEH] art there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou [YAHWEH] art there.

9 If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,

10 Even there Thy hand will lead me, And Thy right hand will lay hold of me.

There is absolutely no case for a "Trinity argument" OR for a separate "rational God-person" from YAHWEH in that passage. To suggest such is nothing more than gratuitous fantasy.

Having said all that, I will NOT object to YAHWEH or YAHSHUA being "everywhere present" by Their Spirit. That is the "Spirit of truth."

[skyblue888]

The Scriptures admonish us not to grieve the Holy Spirit. "Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God." Eph.4:30. We read, "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work unto which I have called them." Acts 13:2.

If the Holy Spirit was not a Person He could not be grieved or He could not speak.

Mrs. White certainly understood that the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead.

"Christ determined that when he ascended from this earth, He would bestow a gift on those who had believed on Him, and those who should believe on Him. What gift could He bestow rich enough to signialize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worhty of His greatness and His royalty. He determined to give His representative, the third person of the Godhead. This gift could not be excelled. He would give all gifts in one, and therefore the divine Spirit, that converting, enlightening, and sanctifying power would be His donation." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.6, p.1053; SW Nov.28,1905.

Here is one more:

"Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy but in the fullness of divine power." Desire of Ages, 671.

sky

[Light Fox]

If I'm not mistaken, the OP requested that all evidences be from the Bible only, and reference Mrs. White's writings only to help clarify a given verse...? That might be why you've posted those Ellen White quotes two or three times in a row now without much comment from others.

I noticed 1 John 5:7 a couple pages back from you, though, that I didn't really see looked at carefully. Personally, while I don't view the Holy Spirit as a person in the same sense that the Father and Son are, I've also never seen a need to discredit the verse. The context (specifically the next verse) makes it really rather clear:

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:7-8).

So, are the water and blood also people? Obviously not. While you might point out it says "agree in one" in verse 8 and "are one" in verse 7, a concordance will show that no such difference existed in the Greek. The phrases are identical. So, being listed with the Father and Son does not make it a "person" in the same sense any more than the water and blood are "people" due to being listed with the Spirit.

As far as thread contribution:

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." (Acts 7:55-56)

Seems to be 1+1=2 there.

[Brother Peter]

Hello everyone. 1+1=2? If there was a third PERSON then "He" would be a part of John 3:16 Because as you know that man was lost in Sin and need to be saved and for sure the God Head is involved in the redemption of humanity and it would read thus

"Joh 3:16

For God and the Holy Spirit so loved the world, that the Spirit agree with God to give his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. But it DID NOT state that. What saith the Scripture?

It said in "Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1+1=2.

[Pastor_Chick]

sky and others,

I was looking at the 1872 Fundamental Principles of SDAs which was non-Trinitarian in doctrine. The first principle is worded as follows:

I.That there is one God, a personal, spiritual being, the creator of all things, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy; unchangeable, and everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit. Ps. 139:7.

The phrase "everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit" might be taken by some as referring to the Holy Spirit as a "person."

Now, IF the writings of EGW have NOT been tampered with (but there ARE some evidences that the writings have been altered somewhat), then her use of "person" (if that was the exact word used by her) could be in line with "His representative." It would be more like "a Personage" of the Father (and the Son) that extends Their presence indefinitely.

We do have a caution in the SOP that must be taken seriously:

The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible. "The Lord's throne is in heaven" (Ps. 11:4); yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. [...] The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them; but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. [...] Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon His church.(FLB 54, 55)

It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Spirit is the Comforter, "the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father." It is plainly declared regarding the Holy Spirit that, in His work of guiding men into all truth, "He shall not speak of Himself." John 15:26; 16:13. (AA 51)

These statements do not seem to solve our "debate" however. Non-Trinitarians will say Trinitarians have taken the Scriptures too far and "put a human construction on them." On the other hand, Trinitarians will retort with, "but, can't you see, there are three 'persons'."

It is interesting and significant to note that Ellen White never corrected the pioneers or objected to the 1872 Fundamental Principles. It was well after her death that leading men began to "see" what appeared to be "Trinitarian language" in her works.

It is only safe to formulate all doctrine by the "weight of evidence" taken from what is revealed in Scripture.

[skyblue888]

Christ said, "He shall not speak of Himself."

This alone shows that the Holy Spirit is a person.

Christ did not come to this world to speak of Himself either. He glorified the Father and the Father does not speak of Himself either but glorifies His Son and the Holy Spirit glorifies both the Father and the Son.

"He shall teach you all things."

How can the Holy Spirit teach if He is not a Person?

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

The Holy Spirit speaks:

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) (Heb. 3:7-11; Psa. 95:7-11)

Who was it that spoke?

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (1 Cor. 10:2-4)

[Pastor_Chick]

This is a very significant witness.

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. (1 Cor. 11:3)

This specifies God's "chain of command"--

1) God, the Father

2) Christ, the Son

3) Man

4) Woman

The Holy Spirit cannot be in the chain because it is not a "rational being" separate from the Father and the Son.

We are considering what the "weight of evidence" is from the Scriptures.

[skyblue888]

Brother, you claim to accept the writings of Mrs. White.

Please turn p.14 of the book Education. In that page she speaks of the knowledge of God. She speaks of the highest education and says,

"Wherever we turn, in the physical, the mental, or the spiritual realm, with a sincere purpose to arrive at truth, we are brought in touch with the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all. The mind of men is brought into communion with the mind of God, the finite with the Infinite. The effect of such communion on body and mind and soul is beyong estimate."

This unseen, mighty Intelligence working in and through all is the mind of God, the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Godhead.

In Ministry of Healing, she writes, "Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." 417.

Again she is speaking of the intelligent presence moving in all things. It can only be the immediate Agency of God, the Holy Spirit.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

Have we seen this witness from Scripture?

"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." (John 16:2, 3)

Perhaps they knew the Holy Spirit? No, impossible.

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" (1 John 4:2)

[BarbaraLynn]

Here is another one:

"I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality." 1 Tim. 5:21

In this one, the elect angels are included with the Father and Son, but the Holy Spirit is not. Why?

It is obvious to me that the Holy Spirit is not a person in the same way that the Father and the Son are.

[Pastor_Chick]

Here is another one:

"I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality." 1 Tim. 5:21

In this one, the elect angels are included with the Father and Son, but the Holy Spirit is not. Why?

It is obvious to me that the Holy Spirit is not a person in the same way that the Father and the Son are.

BarbaraLynn,

I agree with your thesis about the Holy Spirit not being a person "in the same way that the Father and the Son are." But, now, what about the "elect angels"? Do you have any thoughts on that?

[BarbaraLynn]

Originally Posted By: BarbaraLynn

Here is another one:

"I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality." 1 Tim. 5:21

In this one, the elect angels are included with the Father and Son, but the Holy Spirit is not. Why?

It is obvious to me that the Holy Spirit is not a person in the same way that the Father and the Son are.

BarbaraLynn,

I agree with your thesis about the Holy Spirit not being a person "in the same way that the Father and the Son are." But, now, what about the "elect angels"? Do you have any thoughts on that?

Pastor Chick,

I understand that the elect angels are also persons. They have names.

Luke 1:19 "And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to show thee these glad tidings."

And, they are ministering spirits.

Heb. 1:14 "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"

Now, the angels are 'persons', but not the same as the Father and the Son. The Father and Son both existed from eternity, but the angels are created beings, as humans are.

This Scripture tells me that the Holy Spirit is not a person in the same way as the Father or the Son - or even of the elect angels.

[skyblue888]

The Holy Spirit is not a Being as the Father and the Son are but it does not mean that He is not a Person.

The Holy Spirit is the immediate Agency of God. It is by the Spirit that God the Being and Christ the Being are everywhere present. If the Spirit were a Being as the Father and the Son are, how could they be present everywhere, working in and through all, moving in all things according to their will?

"Nature testifies of an Intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Christ says, 'My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.' John 5:17." P.P.114, bottom of page.

It is only by the Spirit, the third person of the Godhead that both the Father and the Son are everywhere present.

sky

[miz3]

Does that mean then that God the Father and God the Son really cannot do everything?

The Bible states that with God (and Jesus when He said that was referring to the Father) nothing is impossible.

However, if God the Father cannot be everywhere at once then what Christ said was false?????

[Naraiel]

If the Holy Spirit was not a Person He could not be grieved or He could not speak.

Mrs. White certainly understood that the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead.

The above statement got my attention, and if you allow me I would like to clarify a few points. In fact, I am going to quote a few bible passages where the Holy Spirit speaks, and start from there.

“And when he was come unto us, he took Paul’s girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, ‘Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’” (Acts 21:11)

“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, ‘Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth.’ ‘Yea,’saith the Spirit,‘that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.’” (Rev 14:13)

“And the Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come.’ And let him that heareth say, ‘Come.’ And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” (Rev 22:17) Other verses presenting the same idea include Acts 8:29, 10:19 and 13:2.

In these wonderful passages, the Spirit of the Lord speaks, just as He “testifies” in some of the John verses discussed above: at one time a warning, at another a comfort, and at a third time the Spirit speaks an invitation. So how does the Spirit speak? We have verses dealing with this matter in both the Old and New testaments.

The Spirit of LORD spake by me, and His word was in my tongue.” (2 Sam 23:2)

“Then the Spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, ‘Go, shut thyself within thine house.’” (Eze 3:24)

“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:4)

“And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.” (Acts 6:10)

“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Pet 1:21)

So you see, the Holy Spirit can speak THROUGH us, or can speak TO us from within (after “entering into” us). That is exactly the way the Godhead (be it Father OR the Son) speaks with us, except in the rare cases when Yahshua appeared in Person to a disciple as He did with Saul in 1 Cor 15:3-8.

In all these cases, when the Spirit speaks, it is truly Elohim (Father and Son) talking, for it is also written, “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” (2 Cor 3:17)

The Father and the Son are truly the speakers, but when they choose to do so to others using a man (as a prophet), or to the inner-self of the individual hearers (as an awakened conscience or special insight), they do so through their Holy Spirit.

In those three verses, it does directly say that the Holy Spirit bears witness, and testifies, and speaks and so on. This is hardly evidence to controvert that the Holy Spirit is not a person in the same way the Father and the Son are.

In this verse, the Holy Spirit speaks, “Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that He [Jesus] had said before, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.” (Heb 10:15,16)

The verses before those two declare Christ to be the Speaker, and the Holy Spirit to be the Witness. Now consider this verse and see if it is not a fitting parallel: And Joshua said unto all the people, ‘Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of Yahweh which He spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.’” (Joshua 24:27)

Many other inanimate objects are called witnesses: A heap of stones in Gen 31:48; a song in Deu 31:19; the book of the Law in Deu 31:26; the signs that Moses was to show the Israelites each had a “voice” in Exo 4:8; in the New Testament the rust of gold and silver bears witness against greed (James 5:3). As the Spirit testifies in some verses, so do our sins and iniquities testify against us in Isa 59:12 and Jer 14:7, although they are not persons. According to Paul, the Law of Yah also testifies against us, revealing our sins, as we see ourselves reflected in His holy Commandments.

I don't believe Ellen White believed that the Holy Spirit was a person in the same way the Father and the Son are. And she didn't corrected similar views other SDA pioneers shared with her.

“The work of the holy Spirit is immeasurably great. It is from this source that power and efficiency come to the worker for God; and the holy Spirit is the comforter, as the personal presence of Christ to the soul.” (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, November 29, 1892, paragraph 3)

“Christ became one flesh with us, in order that we might become one spirit with Him. It is by virtue of this union that we are to come forth from the grave,--not merely as a manifestation of the power of Christ, but because, through faith, His life has become ours. Those who see Christ in His true character, and receive Him into the heart, have everlasting life. It is through the Spirit that Christ dwells in us; and the Spirit of God, received into the heart by faith, is the beginning of the life eternal.” (Desire of Ages, p. 388)

“Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent.” (Manuscript Releases Volume Fourteen, page 23, paragraph 3)

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” (2 Cor 3:17)

[Naraiel]

Oh, I forgot to mention another Witness.

The Bible teaches that 1+ 1= 2

The Son is talking here, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev 3:5

The Son will not confess the name of the faithful before the Holy Spirit, only to His Father and the Holy Angels.

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Rev 3: 12

The Holy Spirit doesn't have a name of its own, like a rational persons do, neither has a will of its own. The Bible teaches that the Spirit of Jheova it is sent, taken and maintained by the will and decisions of the Father and the Son. [Two Persons]