Does the Bible really teach 1+1=3?

[skyblue888]

"The Lord's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4); yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. He has an intimate knowledge of and a personal interest in all the works of His hand." Education, p.132.

"Above, beneath, beyond, abides infinite Love working out all things to accomplish the good pleasure of His goodness." Education, p.134.

"The deepest students of science are constrained to recognize in nature the working of infinite power." Ibid,134.

"Those who have a true knowledge of God will not become so infatuated with the laws of matter or the operations of nature as to overlook or refuse to acknowledge the continual working of God in nature." 1 S.M.393.

"Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything." 8 T 325.

"The divine Spirit... is the presence and power of God." Signs of the Times, Nov.23, 1891.

As we can see, "The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

[Pastor_Chick]

Oh, I forgot to mention another Witness.

The Bible teaches that 1+ 1= 2

The Son is talking here, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev 3:5

The Son will not confess the name of the faithful before the Holy Spirit, only to His Father and the Holy Angels.

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Rev 3: 12

The Holy Spirit doesn't have a name of its own, like a rational persons do, neither has a will of its own. The Bible teaches that the Spirit of Jheova it is sent, taken and maintained by the will and decisions of the Father and the Son. [Two Persons]

Naraiel,

You really say a lot in one post. But, I have to agree with your last two posts here. I could not have said what I understand any better.

Thank you!

(So, the "Tirnity doctrine" is truly a "pagan error.")

[Dr. Waite]

"If a man love me, he will keep my words; and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

John 14:23

Only two are mentioned- i.e. Jesus and his Father.

[Lysimachus]

BarbaraLynn (and others),

I think you need to be very careful, because I believe it is dangerous to make a flat out statement that the Holy Spirit is not a person, especially when we do know that Ellen White did refer to the Holy Spirit as a person in numerous places.

You see, the question should not be "whether" the Holy Spirit is a person. Rather, the question should be "HOW" the Holy Spirit is a person.

Is He a person in the same manner as the Father and Son, as a distinct God-being, independent, with arms and legs, and eyes? I think this is more of an honest question, and the issue we should be wrestling with. I don't think it is safe, in any way shape or form, to be questioning as to "whether" the Holy Spirit is a person or not.

Truly, the Godhead is a mystery -- yet we still need to deal with what has been revealed. And we will not fully understand it until we get to heaven. But I will be honest and say that I have not found evidence in scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy supporting the notion that there are 3, co-equal, co-eternal God-beings, each of their own independent right. The definition of "our image" in Genesis does seem to be referring to the Father and His Son.

A reasonable question to ask is: When the Holy Spirit comes into your heart, Who is coming into your heart? Why it is Jesus isn't it? And if it is Jesus coming into your heart, and Jesus is a person, why then certainly that would make the Holy Spirit a person, now wouldn't it? ;-)

Yet the Scripture and the SOP express that this "person" (the Holy Spirit) is Jesus Christ Himself (14MR, 23) yet "divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof" (Ibid).

Now that is quite a mystery to wrap our brains around isn't it? =)

Instead of forcing our brains into one mold or another, we need to just let the Bible and the SOP writings speak to us, and not try to induce our limited, human, finite minds into them.

Both the Trinitarians and the Godheadites like to lash out at each other....on one end the Trinitarians throw all the "seemingly Trinitarian statements" at the Godheadites, while ignoring all the "seemingly anti-Trinitarian statements". And many of the Godheadites do the same--they throw the "seemingly anti-Trinitarian statements" at the Trinitarians, and have the tendency to ignore those statements that seem to support the Trinity.

Oh brothers and sisters, let us study this subject with all humility of heart and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us, and guide us, as we wrestle to discover the truth at all cost!

Let us not use the famous "pick-and-choose" stunts of Evangelical Christians when it comes to their Bible texts that seemingly support Anti-Sabbatarian notions. Let us take in EVERYTHING as a whole, and strive to come into the TRUE UNITY of the faith for which the Apostle Paul and Christ Himself admonished! Now I am not by any means endorsing a "compromising unity" here, but a true unity where we can be open-minded and come to a full knowledge of the truth as it is taught from the Bible and the Bible alone, and illuminated upon by the Spirit of Prophecy.

May God be with us as we press forward toward the Mark of Our High Calling, and strive to bring down those prideful barriers which prevent us from coming together into the unity of the faith in all humility and contriteness!

~Lysimachus

[BarbaraLynn]

BarbaraLynn (and others),

I think you need to be very careful, because I believe it is dangerous to make a flat out statement that the Holy Spirit is not a person, especially when we do know that Ellen White did refer to the Holy Spirit as a person in numerous places.

You see, the question should not be "whether" the Holy Spirit is a person. Rather, the question should be "HOW" the Holy Spirit is a person.

Is He a person in the same manner as the Father and Son, as a distinct God-being, independent, with arms and legs, and eyes? I think this is more of an honest question, and the issue we should be wrestling with. I don't think it is safe, in any way shape or form, to be questioning as to "whether" the Holy Spirit is a person or not. ...

~Lysimachus

Lysimachus,

Thank you for your comments. I have looked back over my posts and I see that my wording in one of my previous posts did not clearly reflect what I meant. I said that the Holy Spirit is not a person. But, what I meant (as I stated it in a later post) was that the Holy Spirit is not a person in the same way as the Father and Son are.

I appreciate your pointing that out so I could clarify what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

BarbaraLynn

[Light Fox]

I like your post on this, Lys. I think that you have set forth a reasonable way of looking at it, especially if we are going to be looking through the lens of Mrs. White's writings. The simple fact is, she did use the word "person" in reference to the Holy Spirit.

What she meant by that is really the issue when dealing with those writings. Even her son, Willie White, couldn't quite explain it precisely after her death. His best solution was "My perplexities were lessened a little when I learned from the dictionary that one of meanings of “personality” was “characteristics”. It is stated in such a way that I concluded that there might be personality without bodily form, which is possessed, by the Father and the Son."

Unfortunately, language changes over the years, which causes some problems in our current situation. Whereas she may well have used "person" to mean characteristics, presence, etc. today to say "person" means something else.

So it's a bit of a catch-22. If you say it is a person, today's language implies a fully independent and cognizant being. If you say it is not a person, an array of Ellen White quotes are brought to bear which in her day's language indeed use the word "person" to describe It. It really does make the situation a difficult one to approach, so I do understand where BarbaraLynn and others are coming from with the "not a person" phrasing.

As far as the Scriptures are concerned, it seems that they bear the same witness as the quote from Mrs. White you mentioned regarding "Christ Himself":

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2 Cor. 3:17)

The simplest way I have come to understand it is that yes, the Holy Spirit is a person, in the sense that Christ is a person, and it is through the Spirit that He dwells in our hearts. It is His presence, His characteristics, His essence, sent and withdrawn at His will. It is shared between the Father and the Son, and is the means of their being "one," even as it is the means of the apostles being "one" as per John 17.

Of course, none of this implies that it is a being in the sense that the Father and Son are, or that "person" means the same thing. So, I suppose to reference my verse with the title of the thread, "1+1=2."

[Pastor_Chick]

BarbaraLynn (and others),

I think you need to be very careful, because I believe it is dangerous to make a flat out statement that the Holy Spirit is not a person, especially when we do know that Ellen White did refer to the Holy Spirit as a person in numerous places.

You see, the question should not be "whether" the Holy Spirit is a person. Rather, the question should be "HOW" the Holy Spirit is a person.

Is He a person in the same manner as the Father and Son, as a distinct God-being, independent, with arms and legs, and eyes? I think this is more of an honest question, and the issue we should be wrestling with. I don't think it is safe, in any way shape or form, to be questioning as to "whether" the Holy Spirit is a person or not.

Truly, the Godhead is a mystery -- yet we still need to deal with what has been revealed. And we will not fully understand it until we get to heaven. But I will be honest and say that I have not found evidence in scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy supporting the notion that there are 3, co-equal, co-eternal God-beings, each of their own independent right. The definition of "our image" in Genesis does seem to be referring to the Father and His Son.

A reasonable question to ask is: When the Holy Spirit comes into your heart, Who is coming into your heart? Why it is Jesus isn't it? And if it is Jesus coming into your heart, and Jesus is a person, why then certainly that would make the Holy Spirit a person, now wouldn't it? ;-)

Yet the Scripture and the SOP express that this "person" (the Holy Spirit) is Jesus Christ Himself (14MR, 23) yet "divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof" (Ibid).

Now that is quite a mystery to wrap our brains around isn't it? =)

Instead of forcing our brains into one mold or another, we need to just let the Bible and the SOP writings speak to us, and not try to induce our limited, human, finite minds into them.

Both the Trinitarians and the Godheadites like to lash out at each other....on one end the Trinitarians throw all the "seemingly Trinitarian statements" at the Godheadites, while ignoring all the "seemingly anti-Trinitarian statements". And many of the Godheadites do the same--they throw the "seemingly anti-Trinitarian statements" at the Trinitarians, and have the tendency to ignore those statements that seem to support the Trinity.

Oh brothers and sisters, let us study this subject with all humility of heart and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us, and guide us, as we wrestle to discover the truth at all cost!

Let us not use the famous "pick-and-choose" stunts of Evangelical Christians when it comes to their Bible texts that seemingly support Anti-Sabbatarian notions. Let us take in EVERYTHING as a whole, and strive to come into the TRUE UNITY of the faith for which the Apostle Paul and Christ Himself admonished! Now I am not by any means endorsing a "compromising unity" here, but a true unity where we can be open-minded and come to a full knowledge of the truth as it is taught from the Bible and the Bible alone, and illuminated upon by the Spirit of Prophecy.

May God be with us as we press forward toward the Mark of Our High Calling, and strive to bring down those prideful barriers which prevent us from coming together into the unity of the faith in all humility and contriteness!

~Lysimachus

Hello Lysimachus,

Thank you for some beneficial statements and counsel. In all fairness to "BarbaraLynn," I recall her qualifying her point about the HS not being a person by saying "not a person in the same way that the Father and the Son are." I noticed that one of our Trinitarian brothers even responded positively to that with some agreement.

In fact, we seem to be having some "flavor of agreement" on this thread. I am pleased that vile spirits are not participating. Hopefully, we shall all learn what God would teach us about Himself.

Thanks again,

[miz3]

You people are amazing! You speak but you no not what you are saying. You have no idea what the Godhead is or how it functions. You scatter the leaves and account that coherent thought.

God is not something you can dissect like you do an animal in science class. God is not something you place boundaries around and say this what God is or is not. God is not a super human who looks like you or I physically.

Yes, the Bible does say, "in our image". Yet you have no idea what that actually means except to think that God is just a super duper humanoid. How blasphemous!

You should be filled with shame arguing about whether there are three "persons" or two "persons" in the Godhead. I don't care how many Biblical references you cite or how many SOP references you cite none of them will give the "make up" of God.

The only picture of God we can get from the Bible is the same picture of God that Moses saw. What was that? Well it was God's Attributes. That's it!

You people are on extremely dangerous ground. It is irrelevant whether God is "two or three" or whatever. That is God's business.

The Bible is clear that there is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. That is it. Whether God is a "they" or whether God is "three functions" or whatever other configuration you can dream of is not relevant nor is it healthy to seek to know because the Bible does not divulge the details of how God is. Whether the Holy Spirit was left out of this text or that quote is also not relevant. Pastor chick who claims to speak DIRECTLY to God is engaged in this unholy discussion and knows no more than the rest of you. If he is in such close contact with God as he claims why doesn't he know? The answer is simple, Pastor chick is a fraud and he knows no more about it than any of the rest of us. That pastor chick would stoop so low as to argue on a public website about the Nature of God is obscene at minimum. Yet this same pastor chick won't answer my simple questions about himself, his church, and his beliefs because my questions although simple and direct cut too close to the truth about his fraudulent scheme. The fact that he started this thread makes him even more shameful than if he was a mere participant.

Pastor chick I again challenge you to answer my questions publicly.

God is God. That's it.

If you would seek God with all your hearts as ardently as you seek to know this shameful discussion you would be far better off.

[Guest]

I like your post on this, Lys. I think that you have set forth a reasonable way of looking at it, especially if we are going to be looking through the lens of Mrs. White's writings. The simple fact is, she did use the word "person" in reference to the Holy Spirit.

What she meant by that is really the issue when dealing with those writings. Even her son, Willie White, couldn't quite explain it precisely after her death. His best solution was "My perplexities were lessened a little when I learned from the dictionary that one of meanings of “personality” was “characteristics”. It is stated in such a way that I concluded that there might be personality without bodily form, which is possessed, by the Father and the Son."

Unfortunately, language changes over the years, which causes some problems in our current situation. Whereas she may well have used "person" to mean characteristics, presence, etc. today to say "person" means something else.

So it's a bit of a catch-22. If you say it is a person, today's language implies a fully independent and cognizant being. If you say it is not a person, an array of Ellen White quotes are brought to bear which in her day's language indeed use the word "person" to describe It. It really does make the situation a difficult one to approach, so I do understand where BarbaraLynn and others are coming from with the "not a person" phrasing.

As far as the Scriptures are concerned, it seems that they bear the same witness as the quote from Mrs. White you mentioned regarding "Christ Himself":

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2 Cor. 3:17)

The simplest way I have come to understand it is that yes, the Holy Spirit is a person, in the sense that Christ is a person, and it is through the Spirit that He dwells in our hearts. It is His presence, His characteristics, His essence, sent and withdrawn at His will. It is shared between the Father and the Son, and is the means of their being "one," even as it is the means of the apostles being "one" as per John 17.

Of course, none of this implies that it is a being in the sense that the Father and Son are, or that "person" means the same thing. So, I suppose to reference my verse with the title of the thread, "1+1=2."

I like the way you said that...I think.

[Guest]

BarbaraLynn (and others),

I think you need to be very careful, because I believe it is dangerous to make a flat out statement that the Holy Spirit is not a person, especially when we do know that Ellen White did refer to the Holy Spirit as a person in numerous places.

You see, the question should not be "whether" the Holy Spirit is a person. Rather, the question should be "HOW" the Holy Spirit is a person.

Is He a person in the same manner as the Father and Son, as a distinct God-being, independent, with arms and legs, and eyes? I think this is more of an honest question, and the issue we should be wrestling with. I don't think it is safe, in any way shape or form, to be questioning as to "whether" the Holy Spirit is a person or not.

Truly, the Godhead is a mystery -- yet we still need to deal with what has been revealed. And we will not fully understand it until we get to heaven. But I will be honest and say that I have not found evidence in scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy supporting the notion that there are 3, co-equal, co-eternal God-beings, each of their own independent right. The definition of "our image" in Genesis does seem to be referring to the Father and His Son.

A reasonable question to ask is: When the Holy Spirit comes into your heart, Who is coming into your heart? Why it is Jesus isn't it? And if it is Jesus coming into your heart, and Jesus is a person, why then certainly that would make the Holy Spirit a person, now wouldn't it? ;-)

Yet the Scripture and the SOP express that this "person" (the Holy Spirit) is Jesus Christ Himself (14MR, 23) yet "divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof" (Ibid).

Now that is quite a mystery to wrap our brains around isn't it? =)

Instead of forcing our brains into one mold or another, we need to just let the Bible and the SOP writings speak to us, and not try to induce our limited, human, finite minds into them.

Both the Trinitarians and the Godheadites like to lash out at each other....on one end the Trinitarians throw all the "seemingly Trinitarian statements" at the Godheadites, while ignoring all the "seemingly anti-Trinitarian statements". And many of the Godheadites do the same--they throw the "seemingly anti-Trinitarian statements" at the Trinitarians, and have the tendency to ignore those statements that seem to support the Trinity.

Oh brothers and sisters, let us study this subject with all humility of heart and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us, and guide us, as we wrestle to discover the truth at all cost!

Let us not use the famous "pick-and-choose" stunts of Evangelical Christians when it comes to their Bible texts that seemingly support Anti-Sabbatarian notions. Let us take in EVERYTHING as a whole, and strive to come into the TRUE UNITY of the faith for which the Apostle Paul and Christ Himself admonished! Now I am not by any means endorsing a "compromising unity" here, but a true unity where we can be open-minded and come to a full knowledge of the truth as it is taught from the Bible and the Bible alone, and illuminated upon by the Spirit of Prophecy.

May God be with us as we press forward toward the Mark of Our High Calling, and strive to bring down those prideful barriers which prevent us from coming together into the unity of the faith in all humility and contriteness!

~Lysimachus

Amen!

[Light Fox]

...(A bunch of bitter and angry stuff)

Miz,

We're discussing what is revealed in the Scripture and, to a much lesser extent, the Spirit of Prophecy on this subject. While it is true that we cannot put God in a box and say "This is what He is" or "This is what He is not" in the fullest absolute sense, it is obvious that we can find the basics of who and what He is as He has revealed it in those resources.

Your railing would be just as well applied to anyone attempting to debunk the idea - as Mrs. White did - that the Son is not an equal to the Father (since how can you know how the Godhead works?) or that Unitarianism or the Pentecostal "Oneness" doctrines are false (since how can you know the makeup of the Godhead?)

As far as whatever serious, bitter issues you have with Pastor Chick, please take them to an appropriate thread (or better yet personal correspondence), as you were advised here. Personally, I'd advise you to be thankful no one has just called you a hypocrite and told you to stop tempting them. That's how Christ tended to deal with people who asked lists of questions hoping to find a fault.

That said, aside from what I just replied to, I've been enjoying seeing the posts here so far. Thanks to all for their input.

[miz3]

Miz,

We're discussing what is revealed in the Scripture and, to a much lesser extent, the Spirit of Prophecy on this subject. While it is true that we cannot put God in a box and say "This is what He is" or "This is what He is not" in the fullest absolute sense, it is obvious that we can find the basics of who and what He is as He has revealed it in those resources.

Your railing would be just as well applied to anyone attempting to debunk the idea - as Mrs. White did - that the Son is not an equal to the Father (since how can you know how the Godhead works?) or that Unitarianism or the Pentecostal "Oneness" doctrines are false (since how can you know the makeup of the Godhead?)

As far as whatever serious, bitter issues you have with Pastor Chick, please take them to an appropriate thread (or better yet personal correspondence), as you were advised here. Personally, I'd advise you to be thankful no one has just called you a hypocrite and told you to stop tempting them. That's how Christ tended to deal with people who asked lists of questions hoping to find a fault.

That said, aside from what I just replied to, I've been enjoying seeing the posts here so far. Thanks to all for their input.

You are not discussing hoping to find a true answer. You are dueling with the Scripture back and forth in an effort to prove who is right and to crush the other side. In doing so none of you have a correct grasp of God and what the Scripture actually says. You are arguing on the narrow band as to whether there are "two or three" members of the Godhead. This is disgusting. You also attributing likenesses of Him as if God were some kind of super humanoid. This is also disgusting and it is also not Scriptural.

As for Pastor chick, because he claims to receive DIRECT MESSAGES FROM GOD it is highly inappropriate for him as such a special messenger from Yahweh to be engaged in this argumentation. Like Ellen White, if Pastor chick is the messenger of God, he should be able to settle this issue by telling us exactly what God tells him about this discussion. If he is a true messenger from God he could settle the issue right now.

Qinael, you are not just discussing whether the Son is equal to the Father. If that were all the issue is easily settled by Scripture. However, you are delving into areas of which you know nothing, such as "is the Holy Spirit a person", "is the Holy Spirit part of the Godhead", "whether God has a face or mouth like we do". You are engaged in a very broad field while your post claims to engage in a very narrow basic field. Such assertions on your part reveal that you cannot be honest even when your words are in print publicly. Am to accept your chastisement when you cannot be honest about what you are doing? NO! Shame on you! You spoke of Christ and how He dealt with people. Qinael, Jesus Christ never lied to them or was dishonest about what He was doing. You have!

[phkrause]

I must say some rather good points by all. I do agree in one sense with miz3. That its we shouldn't bring God down to our thinking or level. My thoughts on this is that its not easy to define exactly what form the HS is. Does he have the same form as Jesus, when he was down here on earth. I believe its very difficult to determine what God the father or the HSs form is. Jesus when telling his followers that he would have to depart this earth informed them that he would sent the HS to be here on this earth. So I would think that the HS can take any form he needs to accomplish what the God head needs. Obviously Jesus was the only one that took the form of humans to accomplish his mission.

[Light Fox]

Miz, I'm really not appreciating your attitude or accusations here. If you're not going to contribute to the thread, at least be civil. If you're not going to contribute to the thread *or* be civil, please go elsewhere. I'm not going to engage you in trolling a forum.

[miz3]

I must say some rather good points by all. I do agree in one sense with miz3. That its we shouldn't bring God down to our thinking or level. My thoughts on this is that its not easy to define exactly what form the HS is. Does he have the same form as Jesus, when he was down here on earth. I believe its very difficult to determine what God the father or the HSs form is. Jesus when telling his followers that he would have to depart this earth informed them that he would sent the HS to be here on this earth. So I would think that the HS can take any form he needs to accomplish what the God head needs. Obviously Jesus was the only one that took the form of humans to accomplish his mission.

EXCELLENT POST!

Now this is worth listening to.

[Sheila7]

Hi All, Knowing Pastor and those associated with him, I do not think anyone here is trying to bring God down to our level. I would like to add something to pkrause's post about what Jesus told his followers.

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-17.the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. I think this agrees with EGW's statement that the HS is Jesus divested of his bodily form.

I also feel that we are trying to study together and learn more about our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

Blessings

Jody writing from Sheila's computer

[Guest]

Bless you Jody...

[Sheila7]

Dear Miz3,I'm sure this thread was opened by a servant of the Master Weaver, God Himself. This servant's purpose on this earth is to spin together the treads of love, grace and knowledge of our mighty and awesome God. His Bible instructs us to "study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Tim. 2:15. The word "dividing" means: to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach truth directly and correctly. What is not direct and correct about discovering through study of the Scripture who is the Holy Spirit in relation to the Father and His Son? This thread had this discovery in mind to discuss what Scripture states. Are we here to assasinate the character of a servant of God or learn the truth. You seem to be obsessed with this character assasination. I seriously do not think Jesus would approve of your tactics. Further, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

God Bless.

[miz3]

Dear Miz3,I'm sure this thread was opened by a servant of the Master Weaver, God Himself. This servant's purpose on this earth is to spin together the treads of love, grace and knowledge of our mighty and awesome God. His Bible instructs us to "study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Tim. 2:15. The word "dividing" means: to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach truth directly and correctly. What is not direct and correct about discovering through study of the Scripture who is the Holy Spirit in relation to the Father and His Son? This thread had this discovery in mind to discuss what Scripture states. Are we here to assasinate the character of a servant of God or learn the truth. You seem to be obsessed with this character assasination. I seriously do not think Jesus would approve of your tactics. Further, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

You have stars in your eyes in regard to this man(pastorchick). As such you can hardly be credible in evaluating what he is up to.

Pastorchick and his hit persons don't like me and want to discredit me by personal attacks which characterize me as a "trouble maker".

This is as far from the truth as the east is from the west. I have merely asked questions of pastorchick and now my legitimate questions are not being answered.

Pastorchick apparently is being advised by some human to clam up maybe out of fear that I am some GC guy out to trap him. Whatever the reason pastorchick is afraid to be honest about himself and his church. It makes you wonder what he is trying to hide?

As a member of pastorchick's church and clearly as one enthralled with him you are hardly a credible witness. No matter what pastorchick did you would claim that it came from God.

Shiela7 have you ever seen pastorchick while he has been in vision?

[Pastor_Chick]

We have been looking for the "weight of evidence" from the Bible concerning the "persons" of the Godhead. Many good points have been made.

In my searches I discovered these two statements as inspired commentary:

The soul imbued with the love of Christ is one with him; he communes with Christ, Christ is formed within, the hope of glory, and the Christian goes forth to represent the Father and the Son to the world. (ST 06-27-92)

We are to act from principle, to have a firm, abiding trust in Christ. If Christ is formed within, the hope of glory, it will be made manifest in the development of our character and actions; for there will appear the likeness of Christ in our life. We shall represent the Father and the Son to the world. (ST 07-30-94)

These two statements published two years apart make a similar point regarding the topic of this thread. The Christian represents the Father and the Son to the world, and not the Holy Spirit as a separate person. Why? It has been established in at least two previous posts that Christ is the Holy Spirit, and so, the Spirit is the "person" of Christ and God in a mystery.

What is the point, you ask?

In order to become a baptized member of the SDA Church, you must subscribe to the 28 fundamentals. That includes the doctrine of the Trinity. Most of the pioneer founders of Adventism would not qualify for baptism today.

There ARE many believers in Adventism who are non-Trinitarian in their doctrinal understandings. Some hold this view privately and remain members in the GC denominational church. Others, more honest to their faith, refuse to continue membership under a false pretense. Still others go so far as to say the Trinity doctrine is a "pagan error" and would not consider being in membership with a church holding to that doctrine.

For many, I believe the subject is an insignificant consideration. They say, "Jesus only" and blindly walk forward not really knowing the God they serve. However, the Word of YAHWEH is very specific, "this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

One more point.

Obviously, we have two camps here:

1) Trinitarians, and

2) non-Trinitarians

The "Trinitarians" "own legal rights" to the name Seventh-day Adventist, and they "protect" their "property rights" using the "strong arm of civil government."

The non-Trinitarians, usually do not have money to defend themselves in court, so they sadly submit to the GC demand to yield up their sacred identity.

Others, such as Creation Seventh Day Adventists, say NO, we cannot disobey our Master; we must obey God rather than men. We suffer the consequences of our faith gladly.

The point?

There should be no such thing as "religious property rights" associated with one's faith identity, since it is a personal conviction. BUT, if you are going to advocate for "legal religious property rights" for a faith identity, then in the case of Seventh-day Adventism, there should be allowances for the following groups to use the name:

1) Trinitarian SDAs, and

2) non-Trinitarian SDAs.

Why?

It is "fair" because the "ruling body" is now Trinitarian, and they own the trademark.

And, it is also "fair" because the pioneer founders who originally adopted the name and carried it honorably until c. 1930 were "non-Trinitarian" in belief.

[karl]

In my searches I discovered these two statements as inspired commentary:

The soul imbued with the love of Christ is one with him; he communes with Christ, Christ is formed within, the hope of glory, and the Christian goes forth to represent the Father and the Son to the world. (ST 06-27-92)

We are to act from principle, to have a firm, abiding trust in Christ. If Christ is formed within, the hope of glory, it will be made manifest in the development of our character and actions; for there will appear the likeness of Christ in our life. We shall represent the Father and the Son to the world. (ST 07-30-94)

[karl]

A couple more:

"The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

"The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit."--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

[miz3]

pastor chick,

I knew you did not really want to have a legitimate discussion of the Godhead. You merely wanted to create something in which you could then grind your axe of trying to make yourself legitimate.

You did not care anything about the Truth in regard to the Godhead you just want to press your kookiness concerning the law suit.

As I stated before in doing this you blaspheme God. You are indeed shameless. You would dishonestly pose a question about the nature of the Godhead only to in the end use it to grind your axe in the law suit with the SDA Church.

Here is another manifestation of fringe, David Koresh like groups the manipulation of people and subjects. You were never interested in a Spiritual discussion.

[Pastor_Chick]

But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. (Matt. 11:16-19)

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matt. 5:11, 12)

Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: (1 Pet. 2:23)

[miz3]

Pastorchick,

Did Yahweh ever reveal to you how many personalities are actually in the Godhead?