What IS the Adventist perspective?

[ClubV12]

"Makes a person wonder how people found God w/o EGW."

Short answer: They were living in substantial darkness and stumbling around in the dark w/o Ellen White.

"I thought the Bible is where sabbath keeping came from and that the dead were dead!!"

Oh, now where do you learn that? Who told you? How did they tell you? If it's "so easy" and all it takes is "bible study" with the Holy Spirit guiding you, how come the Baptist's never figured out? How come NOBODY else has figured out the details of the Investigative Judgment? It's right there in the bible, as plain as the nose on your face, so what's the problem?

Here's the problem, the Baptists don't have a prophet that the Holy Spirit is working through. Not one of us alive discovered the Sabbath or the doctrine of the dead through bible study alone. We learned it through God's appointed method, the Seventh-day Adventist church. That doctrine was well established, by others, in the SDA church, way before you were born. And WHERE did the SDA church learn it? Why from careful bible study and the leading of the Holy Spirit. THAT is a misleading statement that denies how the Holy Spirit works, which in this case, was through a human messenger, a prophet, Ellen White.

It's the same way the Holy Spirit has ALWAYS WORKED, through chosen vessels. I don't hold Moses any higher than Ellen White. I don't hold Ellen White any higher than Moses. They were people, vessels, chosen of God to do a specific work, at a specific time. Without them, you would be a baptist, or maybe a catholic, you sure wouldn't be a Seventh-day Adventist. I thank the Lord for His messengers, ALL of them, and that includes Ellen White.

[miz3]

Now I understand where KevinH and ClubV12 get all their confusing beliefs from.

Babylon in you get Babylon out!

[CoAspen]

Sorry to say, I believe you have some delusional beliefs that are not held by the SDA church.

I reckn' you forgot about the 4th C, for just a beginning!

Your belief that the H*S only works through certain individuals is mistaken also and unBiblical.

The belief that we only learn through the SDA church and that it is God's appointed method is also wrong and neither Biblical or a held tenant of the SDA church.

Not sure who/whom is teaching you these things but would suggest you broaden your study.

My comments have nothing to do with abelief in EGW. To suggest that would be to ignore reality...jus'sayn'!

[ClubV12]

Where did YOU learn about the Sabbath CoAspen?

...I rest my case. So when was the last time you had a vision that revealed new light on a point of doctrine or the 28 fundamental beliefs? Oh, you've never had one? Well then the question remains: Where did YOU learn about the Sabbath?

[Gordon1]

Hi V12. There's a distinct separation between the teachings of Ellen White and the practices of the SDA Church. The church is in full rebellion against her counsel.

How? - In matters of healthcare (hospitals), education, church structure (hierarchy), courtship, marriage, occupation choices, financial investments, ecumenical co-fratrenizing, personal diet, location of dwellings (country living), Sabbath sacredness, social activities and retirement plans.

This should not be surprising because every protestant denomination has fallen away from the truth. Of course, a remnant will emerge which keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. But it will not be the leadership. Church leaders always reject the prophets, usually killing them.

As EGW said, the laymen will finish the work.

[phkrause]

Where did YOU learn about the Sabbath CoAspen?

...I rest my case. So when was the last time you had a vision that revealed new light on a point of doctrine or the 28 fundamental beliefs? Oh, you've never had one? Well then the question remains: Where did YOU learn about the Sabbath?

Club on this, I'm in agreement with CoA. I believe the Bible is pretty plain as to which day is the Sabbath, no need to get this from EGW or the founders of the SDA Church. The Ten Commandments are pretty plain as to the moral code that we can live by, with each other and with God. We also have the Creation Story which speaks of the Sabbath being created for us. So in one respect there is no need to get this info from anyone without studying the Bible for ourselves. As far as the other churches and how they couldn't see the Sabbath from just reading and studying the Bible, I can't tell you. But it seems they just wanted to break away from the RCC but kept right on worshiping on Sunday and now try to come up with excuses instead of just standing up for what they believe. It is great that we did have the founding fathers and Mother who laid out most of what we believe, and probably a lot of what we ourselves might never have figured out on our own. And this is the reason we have EGW. So that if we do have questions about what we don't understand we can go to her and she will point it out in the Bible for us and than explain it in more detail. So for me its not really going to EGW per se, because she just goes to the Bible and shows us what we or some of us can't understand for ourselves.

[Woody]

Good Points pk. No prophet wrote any of our 28 fundamentals. They were all obtained directly from scriptures.

[Gordon1]

Hi V12, I learned of the Sabbath through a friend who grew up SDA, and his parents learned it from the church who learned it from EGW who learned it from Joseph Bates who learned it from Rachel Oakes (Seventh-day Baptist) or T.M. Preble. (In 1849). God confirmed it to EGW with a vision some months later. So EGW is not the source.

There are also large tracts of Scripture which she hasn't touched, or barely. Most notably Daniel 10-12. These were left for us to rightly divide.

[Tom Wetmore]

Thanks Gordon! I was just about to post the same info. "ClubV12" would do well to learn a bit of Adventist history, not to mention each one of the beliefs he attributes as coming from EGW. Each of them was a part of the doctrine of other groups that existed long before EGW was born.

As you noted, Joseph Bates brought the seventh day Sabbath to the early Adventists having learned of it from the Seventh-day Baptists, a denomination that had its beginnings in the 17th Century.

Some references of interest are Sabbath in Seventh-day Churches

Seventh-day Baptist

On a personal note, I attended vacation Bible school as a young boy at the Seventh-day Baptist Church just down the road from our farm. A number of a neighbors were Seventh-day Baptists.

[ClubV12]

EGW was never the "source", as PK pointed out, it's clearly right there in the 10 commandments. What Ellen White did, as God's messenger, was CONFIRM the Sabbath issue and thats precisely the way the early Adventists moved.

The same could be said for virtually every point of doctrine, it's "right there in scripture". But "we" couldn't, wouldn't, didn't, see it until it was time for God to bring us back to it. The MOST IMPORTANT method He used to do that, was Ellen White. Who confirmed, as the studies progressed, and the bible was searched and prayed over, each point as it was established.

If it hadn't been Ellen White, it would have been someone else. Point is, it was "time" for a prophet to be raised up to guide this new church and keep their feet on the path. The bible path. It would NOT have happened without direct intervention from God. It was IMPOSSIBLE for William Miller to see the meaning of 1844 because God held his hand over it. The bible and the bible alone was not enough, IS not enough to establish the truths we now hold so dear. It took the bible AND a spirit of prophecy to establish this church.

Take the Investigative judgment, there is not a SINGLE other christian church that understands it the way we do. Was it due to intense "bible only" study? NO!!! It was NOT!!! It was a series of divine revelations OF the bible texts to understand it. Hiram Edson first, Ellen White second. BOTH, divine intervention. Well NOW we see it clearly, AFTER that divine intervention.

There were Sabbath Keepers in the 1400's, as far as that goes. AND they recognized the Pope as the "beast"! God has ALWAYS had a group somewhere keeping the Sabbath, it never died out.

[Woody]

Thanks Tom. You have a rare opportunity to be around Seventh-day Baptists. The link you provided states there are only 50,000 world-wide.

[Woody]

The way I test whether a prophet is worth listening to is if what they say is in scripture. If what they are saying is not in scripture - I toss it and the "prophet" in the trash.

There are just far to many prophet wanna bes.

[ClubV12]

Of course there are Woody, some 200 in Ellen Whites time. Plenty around today as well. The question is: Do "we" accept Ellen White as a prophet for our time, or not? Or, do we just give it lip service and basically denigrate her work when we boldly (and blindly) declare we need "only the bible". We recognize we need the bible AND the Holy Spirit of course. So, how does that work? Through his chosen vessel in this time, for our edification, I present to you the Lords messenger, Ellen White.

When it comes to Adventist history, THAT is my primary study. I'm becoming quite familiar with it and as I do, I see the incredible roll Ellen White played in it.

I don't know who all these "modern players" are everyone else recognizes, but I sure know the founders! Uriah Smith, Bates, Jones, Waggoner, James White, Edson and a host of others. THEY are my primary study.

Bates wanted the Sabbath to being by the "clock", 6 pm I think it was. That was an interesting debate, Sister White confirmed the correct stance on that issue. Otherwise, we might be doing 6 pm to 6 pm. :)

[Woody]

All I know V12 is that NO ONE accepts all of Ellen White's teachings. If I explored your beliefs I could find at least one deficit area such as eating butter,eggs or cheese or drinking tea coffee cider or use of medications. For sure I could find something if I spent enough time with you. :)

[ClubV12]

I accept ALL of her counsel Woody. With the caveat that some, VERY LITTLE, is personal opinion. Her counsel on coffee, medicine, cider (thats a particularly interesting one, by the way) are as relevant today as it was in her time.

I even accept her counsel on buying BICYCLES, so often dismissed by Adventists today as being only for "her time". That counsel is for OUR TIME as well and makes perfect sense!

[ClubV12]

Got my first jar of "Roma" the other day. Whew, giving up coffee is gonna be a battle and a march. That Roma stuff aint that good!

It's a work of progress, but the goal posts are clearly defined, and the goal IS possible!

[Woody]

I accept ALL of her counsel Woody. With the caveat that some, VERY LITTLE, is personal opinion. Her counsel on coffee, medicine, cider (thats a particularly interesting one, by the way) are as relevant today as it was in her time.

I even accept her counsel on buying BICYCLES, so often dismissed by Adventists today as being only for "her time". That counsel is for OUR TIME as well and makes perfect sense!

Yeah. When I talk to people with that kind of belief ... I find what they do is to add or subtract to the writings of our prophet and make it be what THEY want rather than what SHE says. There is another prolific writer here that does exactly that and is a master if I might say so.

[ClubV12]

Excellent point Woody!! One has to be very careful to read the counsel and understand the principles laid down. Personally, I fear to start "picking and choosing" what I will or will not believe. I may not follow it right away, but I won't lie to myself and say it doesn't apply to me.

Much of her counsel is difficult to understand and put into practical life. I'm NOT claiming to be perfect in any regard, NOR am I forcing or demanding that of others. Let every man be convinced in his own heart along the way.

[Woody]

Excellent point Woody!! One has to be very careful to read the counsel and understand the principles laid down. Personally, I fear to start "picking and choosing" what I will or will not believe. I may not follow it right away, but I won't lie to myself and say it doesn't apply to me.

You mean what you have imagined to be her principles? I prefer to go by what she says rather than my imagined perception of what her principles might be.

Actually - Ellen White didn't even follow Ellen White. For years and years she preached about not eating meat yet did so herself. There's nothing wrong with presenting what you think is right. I don't believe our leaders have to be without sin. Others do. I am just pointing it out to debunk the myth.

[ClubV12]

So, your not going to buy another bicycle, period? Or, are you going to understand the PRINCIPLE involved in that buying a carbon fiber $10,000 bicycle is not a good idea today?

She, like me, was human. She didn't stop eating meat entirely until 1892 (I think thats the date). She didn't command everyone to stop eating pork right away either. The "goal posts" Woody, we all get there in our good time, in Gods time.

[Woody]

If our prophet meant the cost of the bicycle and failed to mention that - she is a poor prophet. Certainly not a prophet for our age but a prophet for that age.

[Woody]

So, your not going to buy another bicycle, period? Or, are you going to understand the PRINCIPLE involved in that buying a carbon fiber $10,000 bicycle is not a good idea today?

She, like me, was human. She didn't stop eating meat entirely until 1892 (I think thats the date). She didn't command everyone to stop eating pork right away either. The "goal posts" Woody, we all get there in our good time, in Gods time.

I take it you're not of the practice what you preach crowd?

[ClubV12]

Like a bible text your trying to understand. Often you need to know WHAT life was like when it was written. What were the customs of that day? What was going on when Paul offered his specific advice on "strangled meat" and circumcision? The principles still carry on today.

In Ellen Whites time, bicycles were terribly expensive and the latest "fad". They cost a LOT of money! Today, there are widely accepted, good exercise and cheap. But not a racing carbon fiber 26 speed hydraulic brakes super light weight $10,000 bike you ride on the weekend to "show off" or for mere pleasure. Don't buy one like that is the PLAIN TESTIMONY of the prophet.

[Woody]

She didn't stop eating meat entirely until 1892 (I think thats the date). She didn't command everyone to stop eating pork right away either. The "goal posts" Woody, we all get there in our good time, in Gods time.

In 1894 she had a reconversion about meat because of a Catholic women (Mrs. Press) and stated "Since the camp meeting at Brighton (January 1894) I have absolutely banished meat from my table" CDF 88

Again in 1894 she stated "But when the selfishness of taking lives of animals to gratify a perverted appetite was presented to me by a Catholic woman, kneeling at my feet, I felt ashamed and distressed ... I said 'I will no longer patronize the butcher, I will not have the flesh of corpses on my table'" Test p. 38

In 1895 she asked her son to buy some "dried codfish and dried fish of ANY description --- nothing canned". Letter 149

1896 "I use fish when I can get it. We get beautiful fish from the salt water lake near here." Letter 128 1896

1907 ... she wrote .... "I said to Sara,'take chickens from my place and prepare them some broth" CDF 466

Ellen White died in 1915 so I am not sure she truly stopped eating meat before she died. But perhaps on her death bed she did.

[ClubV12]

Practice what you preach? When? Immediately? Well, yeah, for some counsel, immediately, right now, no time to loose! Sabbath? Do it now, do it soon, it's fundamental. Pork? What if you OWN and OPERATE a pork farm? Better take it slow, figure it out, don't move to hastily. Me and pork? Done, it's over, I'm not eating it, right away. Meat? Man, I'm working on it, I don't even know how to cook!

...and being from Hawaii, I do love my fish!