What IS the Adventist perspective?

[ClubV12]

Well thats terrific miz3, so who told you about the Sabbath when you first heard it? And AFTERWARD, confirmed it with your bible?

Or, did you come to it all by yourself with zero outside counsel? I don't think so, you might want to acknowledge those folks who shared that truth with you and thank the Lord he was using them to edify you on that point.

We build our faith on the shoulders of the giants who came before us. Thank God He was leading them, and they have left a legacy for us.

[miz3]

ClubV12,

You can be told anything. Whether it is true or not can only be confirmed by the Bible.

Just because someone or something tells you something does not make it true. You match it with the Bible to see if it is true or not true.

The Sabbath is not true because some person said so, it is true because the Bible says so.

[ClubV12]

"Whether it is true or not can only be confirmed by the Bible."

Excellent point, absolutely agree with that!

My point is, someone told me, I wasn't sure, I had to research and verify it. Then I "built upon it". My foundation was built by leaning on the wisdom and hard work of those who came before me. "Some have to learn in a few months what it's taken others years to learn." All the while trusting in Ellen White, as God's prophet, for the correct interpretation of scripture. Above all else, that is what I see as her early and most important work. Verifying, guiding, confirming and clairifying each point of doctrine as various men, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, studied and considered each point one item at a time.

Had it not been for the guidance of Ellen White, or some other prophet, I believe the SDA church would be no different than many other churches with "confused" doctrines.

I'd just like to take this moment to thank the Lord for all those men and women that have done so much to teach me along the way. Thank you, Josesph Bates, Hiram Edson, A.T. Jones, Ellen White, Hubert (my current mentor) and a host of others. :)

[miz3]

ClubV12,

You don't need the work of others before you to learn about the Sabbath Truth from the Bible. Without anyone's help but the Holy Spirit you could find out the Sabbath Truth just like the people on Pitcairn Island did as rudywoofs so rightly pointed to you earlier. That seems to be the part you are failing to understand.

[ClubV12]

Of course you can find it with the Holy Spirits help in the bible, and the bible alone. People have been doing it that way for centuries, very FEW people, but always a few, somewhere. God did not let it die out completely.

...but nobody HERE found it that way and nobody HERE is from Pitcairn! "We" owe this revelation to the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist church, as verified by Ellen White. Just giving credit where credit is due.

If not for the Lords messenger, we might all be 7th Day Baptists!

[Dr. Rich]

If you don't see the beauty in Ellen Whites counsel' date=' in EVERY regard, you don't see Jesus. Everything she presents is for our edification, our blessing, our spiritual and physical health.

Lot's of people keep the Sabbath, somebody, somewhere has since the beginning of time. How did Pitcairn fare on the rest of the doctrinal points? How did the 7th Day Baptist's fare on their doctrinal points?

Is it your intent, rudywoofs, like Woody, CoAspen, miz3 and so many others here, to minimize the importance of the Lords messenger for our time? To undercut her counsel so desperately needed in our time? To claim to believe but deny the power thereof? To make her work of no effect?

I hope that is not the intent of anyone, but that is so consistenly portrayed in thread after thread and post after post it is the only logical conclusion left.

"If not for the Lords messenger "we" would be no different than any other church." Including those that keep the Sabbath. [/quo te']

Try reading John 17 and you will have a true picture of what Jesus' prayer to His Father was all about. IF you refuse to abide by the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitness disciples, then you can in NO way be united in the love Jesus prayed for.

A true Adventist is one who keeps all of the ten commandments and holds ONLY to the words of Jesus (testimony), as that alone is the gospel of the kingdom of heaven.

[BobRyan]

Sonny I would argue that some infant Adventist may indeed come into the Church without accepting the prophetic gift that God gave the SDA church. But given some time to mature in their study of the Word of God and the Christian faith - they reach the point that ClubV12 has stated.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Those FIGHTING AGAINST the Lords messenger are fighting against God Sonny.

Again, continuing that fight and depending on circumstances it is indeed a "test of fellowship". It is one thing to have questions, be seaching for the truth, but at the end of that search if you set your feet against the prophet, failure in you connection with Christ is assured.

Any ordained SDA minister who would preach from the pulpit that Ellen White is not inspired should have his credentials removed. That would also apply to church officers. There are certain standards the church cannot bend. One of those are they who willingly, knowingly "fight against" the prophet. For THAT group, it is indeed a "test of fellowship".

It is a serious matter to denigrate ANY prophet of the Lord.

[Sonny]

Sonny I would argue that some infant Adventist may indeed come into the Church without accepting the prophetic gift that God gave the SDA church.

And I would argue that lazy Adventists use Ellen White as a crutch instead of learning from the Word itself. Not saying you guys are that way, but I know many are. Been there myself at one time.

[ClubV12]

Some do, I guess, I haven't seen much of that myself. But from talking to life time members of the church it seems to have been a significant problem in the 70' or 80's? Very legalistic approach in those time frames is the impression I'm left with. More or less, that continues today. But like I said, thankfully, I haven't seen much of it myself,,, yet. A minor comment here and there, which I usually respond to on the spot and in clear speech, I don't like it, don't use the Lords messenger as a "hammer". It's a stuggle for me at times to find that balance, upholding her writings, God's gift to us, and yet, seeing the danger. But I see the bible used in very much the same way, more perhaps. Thus it has always been with the messages of God. Some see the "law" as foremost, some see the love IN the law!

What the Conflict of the Ages series did for me:

It gave me a superb overall view of the conflict! It made the people in the bible come alive. I found myself thinking of certain characters as real, my real brother and sister in Christ. I loathed David for his sins and could not wrap my head around how he was called "a man after God's own heart". And David's commet that he "delights in the law"? How is that possible? I was actually mad at him! Slowly I began to understand. Reading the Conflict Series actually DROVE me to the bible! I wanted to see these thing for myself, to understand, from the word, what was going on. It was, in all respects, a lesser light leading to a greater light.

I love David, I understand a great deal more about him today. It gives me great hope for the wretched man I am.

I thank the Lord for sending a messenger to us, in our time, to make the conflict real and applicable to ME.

[Sonny]

Look, I came in the SDA church back in 1988. I got hammered with EGW & that's what I read.

Here's the problem - her main focus is on Christian living. If you try living that life without understanding the gospel you will do two things:

1] Drift off into legalism.

2] Become cultish.

Ellen White is not heavy on the gospel. You have to look for it. But in order to look for it you have to know the gospel. I learned the gospel, but it wasn't from Ellen White. Yes, ultimately it was the Apostle Paul, but Pastor Jack Sequeira was used heavily of God to help me understand the gospel. He's an SDA retired Pastor. If it hadn't been for him I would have become an atheist.

[skyblue888]

"...butter, eggs, and meat."

phk "gets it". What is the principle involved here? And I have read a large section of that specific quote and compared it to others. She is talking about a rich diet, heavy on the listed items and lacking in fruits and vegetables. In some cases her counsel on this issue was directly aimed at a butcher, whose family ate large amounts of meat and pork and almost nothing else! The counsel here is about choosing wisely the diet. Not always looking just for "tasty things", over eating (gluttony), eating all the time (stomach never rests). Applying the principle many other foods could be incorporated into the counsel as well. And WHY? Simple answer, it's unhealthy. And if you KNOW it's unhealthy and PERSIST in eating that way, how high do you think your prayers will go for your children? Or, even for yourself.

The purpose behind the health message is for us to have a clearer mind, more mental awareness, a calmer spirit open to spiritual things. These are not some "legalistic laws" being handed down, it's good counsel for those seeking a closer relationship with Him.

It is not her personal opinion, it is divine revelation. Ignore it at your own risk. Where it seemingly conflicts with modern science, I'll stay with what the prophet had to say on the subject and wait for "modern science" to catch up.

Right on!

sky

[skyblue888]

As far as I can see, nobody "worships" Paul, Moses or Ellen White either, it's a non-issue. I hear people say that, on here, a lot, I don't know what they are implying when they do. Is that some kind "pot shot" at the prophet or the ones who believe in the prophet, or both? Is the intention to make light of the prophets work?

"DISCERNMENT."

THAT is what so many are missing. Paul also had a personal opinion on the matter of marriage. Perhaps a verse or two out of his entire biblical record. Ellen White is very much the same in that regard. A small percentage of what she wrote is personal opinion. Off the top of my head, that amounts to her comments on the "reform dress", and that about sums it up as far as her counsel goes.

Her counsel to many, many others as found in the Testimonies were specifically meant to be instruction for our time and beyond and for a much wider audience. When Paul wrote the Corinthians, or any other church, the same principle applies. Those "testimonies" he wrote were to reach far beyond the immediate people to whom he was writing, as Ellen White also intended. That's why it's important to apply the principles involved, not the specific details to a specific person.

THAT requires "discernment".

If you consider the Testimonies mere "letters" to some individual and therefore, readily dismissed, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the prophets work. Following that logic, we could dismiss vast sections of the bible talking about "specific people", that was for "their time" and has no significance for our time. Of course, such reasoning is obviously incorrect. We look not to the "specific people" recorded in the bible, we look to the expierence to see what principles apply to us today. As the early church did, as Luther did, as the founders of the SDA church did.

Right on again!

sky

[skyblue888]

Sonny I would argue that some infant Adventist may indeed come into the Church without accepting the prophetic gift that God gave the SDA church. But given some time to mature in their study of the Word of God and the Christian faith - they reach the point that ClubV12 has stated.

in Christ,

Bob

Amen.

sky

[skyblue888]

Those FIGHTING AGAINST the Lords messenger are fighting against God Sonny.

Again, continuing that fight and depending on circumstances it is indeed a "test of fellowship". It is one thing to have questions, be seaching for the truth, but at the end of that search if you set your feet against the prophet, failure in you connection with Christ is assured.

Any ordained SDA minister who would preach from the pulpit that Ellen White is not inspired should have his credentials removed. That would also apply to church officers. There are certain standards the church cannot bend. One of those are they who willingly, knowingly "fight against" the prophet. For THAT group, it is indeed a "test of fellowship".

It is a serious matter to denigrate ANY prophet of the Lord.

Another big Amen to that.

sky :)

[skyblue888]

Look, I came in the SDA church back in 1988. I got hammered with EGW & that's what I read.

Here's the problem - her main focus is on Christian living. If you try living that life without understanding the gospel you will do two things:

1] Drift off into legalism.

2] Become cultish.

Ellen White is not heavy on the gospel. You have to look for it. But in order to look for it you have to know the gospel. I learned the gospel, but it wasn't from Ellen White. Yes, ultimately it was the Apostle Paul, but Pastor Jack Sequeira was used heavily of God to help me understand the gospel. He's an SDA retired Pastor. If it hadn't been for him I would have become an atheist.

I have read some of Sequeira's books. He has some good things but it is not true that he has been presenting the true 1888 message. The same with the 1888 Study Committee. They have published so many books on 1888 and yet the very heart and essence of that message is still elusive to them.

sky

[skyblue888]

The impression that Mrs. White is "not heavy" on the Gospel is only apparent. Those who get that impression fail to see the need in her writings of presenting the letter of the law which is a ministration of condemnation and death in order to make the sinner realize his utterly helpless condition and thus his need of a Saviour, his need to come to Christ just as he is, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the merits of His infinite sacrifice in order to receive the grace of the Holy Spirit to work in him both to will and to do God's good pleasure.

sky

[Sonny]

I have read some of Sequeira's books. He has some good things but it is not true that he has been presenting the true 1888 message.

Again, I agree with him about 99%....But I learned the gospel - how Christ legally saved us in Himself - from Jack. That gives me assurance....He also talks of Christian living, but the gospel and peace with God is his main thrust. His studies are in Paul's letters to the church, whatever that's called. That's what his degree is in.

[miz3]

And I would argue that lazy Adventists use Ellen White as a crutch instead of learning from the Word itself. Not saying you guys are that way, but I know many are. Been there myself at one time.

I would say most SDA fit into this "lazy" category.

There are many on this website who also fit this "lazy" category.

I am sure such ones know who they are and I do not need to mention any names.

[Sonny]

In case you haven't noticed I'll quote Ellen White, but I got it from my Bible first. The reason I quote her is she states it better than I can sometimes. And plus, it's a lot easier to cut and paste.

[miz3]

I never said don't quote Ellen White.

I am talking about so many that read only her and decide what they believe about the Bible because they got it from Ellen White first.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

I have read some of Sequeira's books. He has some good things but it is not true that he has been presenting the true 1888 message.

Again, I agree with him about 99%....But I learned the gospel - how Christ legally saved us in Himself - from Jack. That gives me assurance....He also talks of Christian living, but the gospel and peace with God is his main thrust. His studies are in Paul's letters to the church, whatever that's called. That's what his degree is in.

Why do u put more trust in the writings of that man than in the writings of Ellen White? Was he more inspired than her?

Ellen White wrote: "The merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf."

Do you believe this to be the Gospel?

Do you not believe that the merits of Christ are sufficient to present to the Father in your behalf in order that you may receive all the blessings of the Covenant of grace?

sky

[Tom Wetmore]

MODERATOR NOTICE:

A number of posts that were personal attacks on another poster have been removed.

Stick to the topic. Attack ideas, not people.

Any further digressions into ad hominem territory will likewise be removed and the attackers will jeopardize their continued freedom to post.

Tom

Moderator Pro Tem

[ClubV12]

"I would say most SDA fit into this "lazy" category."

I would say most don't. Whatever your looking for, you will find it. There are plenty of hooks on which to hang your doubt.

[skyblue888]

Club, "Not one in one hundred (among adventists) understands for himself the Bible truth on this subject which is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare." 1 S.M.360.

How many is that?

sky