What IS the Adventist perspective?

[ClubV12]

"If we come to the Word of God with a teachable, humble spirit, the rubbish of error will be swept away,..." 1SM 360

Teachable, humble.

Whether you use the bible and the bible alone, (which, on THIS web site, is to often "code" for, you can't trust Ellen White) to bash people, or you use the Spirit of Prophecy, it is nothing more than noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

I'll use the bible, the SDA commentary, the interlinear Hebrew and Greek, the Spirit of Prophecy and I'll pray for a humble, teachable spirit to build a foundation.

Some prefer to use only a pair of of vice grips to work on their car. Others thank the Lord He's provided a whole tool box. The hammer, while useful at times, should be used sparingly. Please, put the hammer down. I hear it like a clanging cymbal. You don't like Ellen White, I don't need that hammered home in every other post. This is a Seventh-day Adventist web site, where many of us like to have Ellen White in our "tool box". It's OK, let it go, just drop the hammer and step away.

[miz3]

The "hammar" used by most SDA is the "hammar" of the Spirit of Prophecy.

Most SDA use this "hammar" because it is impossible or near impossible to demonstrate "their version of the truth" as the Truth from the Bible. Most SDA are extremely illiterate when it comes to Bible knowledge.

We have seen this demonstrated over and over again by some on this website.

[Sonny]

Why do u put more trust in the writings of that man than in the writings of Ellen White? Was he more inspired than her?

[ClubV12]

I've been particularly impressed with the bible knowledge of the members of my Seventh-day Adventist church. All though I've been around a lot of christian folks in my time, I've found SDA's to be;

"extremely literate when it comes to Bible knowledge."

They easily surpass any nominal church I've ever attended. Not only bible knowledge, it appears to me that the Seventh-day Adventist church also attracts a larger number of successful, hard working and talented folk than I find is typical of my neighborhood.

"I have seen this demonstrated over and over again by some on this website."

This wonderful depth of bible knowledge and unusual clairity on the christian life. Of course, there are always exception's to a rule. I've met a few fanatical "bible thumpers" who carry a negative spirit, gloom and doom where ever they go on the web. But the web seems to be their most common location. Thankfully, I haven't met any in my Seventh-day Adventist church! Praise the Lord for that.

"The merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." This is the very essence of righteousness by faith, the heart of the gospel message, of which Paul (and Ellen White) speak volumes! It's as simple as ABC.

[miz3]

Well said Sonny!

[Kevin H]

I think we are getting off track in discussing the role of Mrs. White, we can make a sepperate thread for that. I want to go back to now what I see as the Adventist Perspective, the core of Adventism:

We start out with God, a God outside of time and space, the creator of time and space, the only source of life. A God too big for finite minds to understand, so we find God revealing himself inside of time and space through the trinity, God as the great power, unapproachable light, deep darkness or God the Father. God as one of us, our personal friend, God the Son. And while these two manisfestations are objective, creatures are also subjective, so God working with our subjective and guiding us, God the Holy Spirit.

God's law is self sacrificing live. No more and no less. The trinity exist in a self sacrificing love and righteousness by faith relationship with each other. Life comes only from God and only through a righteousness by faith relationship with the only source of life. Now it could be asked what does self sacrificing love mean, so we have the 2 great principles: To love God supreamly and our neighbor as oursleves, how do you do this? We have the 10 commandaments. In the Exodus 20 version it breaks up into 3 thirds. The first third, consisting of 3 commandaments telling us how to love God supreamly, and illustrates the ministry of God the Father. The last third consists of 6 commanadaments telling us how to love our neighbor as ourselves, the work of the Holy Spirit in making us loving and loveable people. The middle third consists of one commandament that says that the only way we can love God supreamly and our neighbor as our selves is through resting in a relationship with God (the ministry of God the Son)

God made us free to keep his law, which meant that we were free to not keep his law. The problem is that breaking the law sepperates us from the only source of life kills us. Of all the angles and all the worlds God made, the odds of someone choosing not to follow God's law were great indeed. It ended up being Lucifer. Now Lucifer were asking important questions that the universe needed to understand. The Holy Spirit was leading Lucifer and the universe to these quesiton. Sadly instead of looking for answers Lucifer began to congratulate himself for having the cleverness to come up with such amazing questions. He began to focus on this pride instead of searching for answers. He was asking himself the difference between himself as a creature and God as God, and started feeling jealous towards God the Son, God as one of us, as he appeared to be another angel, so why was he worshiped and seen as the same as the great power? Lucifer wondered what if God was not the infinite creator as he claimed, but what if God just had a natural begining and had evolved to perfection and to keep us from working ourselves towards perfection claimed that he was the infinite creator and placing the law of self sacrificing love on us to prevent us from working our way to perfection.

Lucifer formed the first of what was to become 3 deceptions. The first is that God is not God but a further advanced life form who has no right to impose a law over us. but has become an arbitary tyrant, requireing self sacrificing love and righteousness by faith by us but he himself lives for himself.

The second and third were based on that God claimed to be both just and merciful. Lucifer argued that they were opposits and that God could not be both neeiding to be one or the other. Since God is a tyrant he will be just, therefore if anyone sins they must die, and not die from sepperating from the only source of life, but that God had to impose a punnishing death upon them. After the cross he put more emphesses on the third deception which says that mercy destroys justice. God can forgive us but cannot change us.

If Lucifer was allowed to get the consequences of his choice and he dissappeared it would have looked like God did kill him. So God started to take the death of sin upon himself sepperating himself from his loved ones and the trinity from each other, thus extending life to the sinners.

Everything has been to deal with these questions and answering the 3 deceptions of Satan, and when God became a creature would he be able to keep the law of self sacrificing love. Would God the Father give up his beloved Son. Would the Holy Spirit allow Jesus to make his own choices and not interviene and force Jesus' will. Would the members of the trinity allow the sin issue to sepperate themselves from each other instead of allowing it to sepperate them from the creatures they made. And what about the final destruction of the wicked. It's been a long day, my eyes are tired I have to come back and fill in some details, but I hope this helps as a start.

[skyblue888]

The "hammar" used by most SDA is the "hammar" of the Spirit of Prophecy.

Most SDA use this "hammar" because it is impossible or near impossible to demonstrate "their version of the truth" as the Truth from the Bible. Most SDA are extremely illiterate when it comes to Bible knowledge.

We have seen this demonstrated over and over again by some on this website.

And who would that be miz?

sky :)

[skyblue888]

Well said Sonny!

methinks that Sonny and miz3 are the same individual.

sky :)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Why do u put more trust in the writings of that man than in the writings of Ellen White? Was he more inspired than her?

It's very possible that Jack, from his perspective and study of the Bible (especially Paul) Ellen White, Jones & Waggoner, Robert Wieland, and others has more accumulative light then did Ellen White at the time of her death. You need to keep in mind the following statements:

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

“A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, ‘We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God.’ But we are not safe when we take a position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God's word for truth. ‘Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.’ Some have asked me if I thought there was any more light for the people of God. Our minds have become so narrow that we do not seem to understand that the Lord has a mighty work to do for us. Increasing light is to shine upon us; for ‘the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.’ --Review and Herald, June 18, 1889. CW 34, 35

Quote:

Ellen White wrote: "The merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf."

Do you believe this to be the Gospel?

It doesn't tell my how Christ legally saved us "in Christ". So no!

It tells you and me that the merits of Christ's sacrifice are SUFFICIENT to present to the Father in our behalf. Either they are sufficient or they are not. Since they are, there is no other way for the sinner to attain to peace with God or to righteousness.

sky

[ClubV12]

Kevin, when it comes to the Adventist "perspective" I don't see how it's possible to separate the Spirit of Prophecy from that discussion.

I don't see it as getting off track, it seems to me that it is at the heart of the issue! :)

[miz3]

And who would that be miz?

I don't believe I mentioned any names. I don't see a need to. Those who act like the "hammer" should know who they are.

I an not out to destroy "hammers". There are times when the hammer is a very useful tool. There are also many applications where the hammer is absolutely the wrong tool because it does more damage than if it were not used at all.

The prolific use of Ellen White as a hammer has done more damage to SDA themselves as well as to do great damage outside the Church. I mean this not only corporately but also individually as well.

The dead, wounded, and bruised bodies within the Church and without the Church have to rank up there with the Inquisition.

I am sure you will not agree and there will be many with you but it is nonetheless true. Ellen White would appalled and most livid if she knew how her writings have come to be used by the SDA Church both in Doctrine, corporate dynamics, and individuals in and out of the Church.

[ClubV12]

Hmmm, I've never seen anything that indicates Ellen White "set doctrine". The history of the church is pretty clear on that. The founders searched the word, counseled together, prayed, at times Ellen White gave confirmation to their study by direct revelation from God. Or pointed them in another direction. There was certainly robust debate over many of the doctrinal points! It has always been left to the "church" to establish doctrine, as it was in the early church. No one man or one woman decided the matter. Nor did she set corporate dynamics, she bowed to the will of "corporate" when she did not have direct light from the Lord. Indeed, she referred to them as the highest authority on earth, ABOVE her!

Like every prophet, she gave direct testimony to individuals, churches and groups. Thats what prophets do ya know, it's part of the job requirement. Like Paul edifying, counseling the people of his time. But NOT JUST for his time, like Ellen White, laying down principles that apply for ALL time. The Testimonies of Ellen White are an excellent example of the kind of work, epistles, that Paul did.

[ClubV12]

"The prolific use of Ellen White as a hammer has done more damage to SDA themselves as well as to do great damage outside the Church. I mean this not only corporately but also individually as well."

Of course that too is "one man's opinion". There is little doubt that Ellen Whites work has been the greatest blessing this church has ever had. Quite possibly, ever WILL have in terms of a messenger.

Thousands and thousands have found great comfort in her work, testimonies and principles of life. Wow, it is an amazing body of work, truly, inspired of God.

[miz3]

Once again ClubV12 you demonstrate for all to see your 100% idol worship of Ellen White.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Well said Sonny!

methinks that Sonny and miz3 are the same individual.

sky

methinks that you are wrong. Have the moderator check the IP.

[ClubV12]

I use the tools God gave us all for bible study. I've found the bible commentary CD to be especially useful. It includes the research edition for EGW writings as well, if you didn't know.

Both sources are powerful research tools miz3, I know they would be a blessing to you. How lonely it must be for you with no one to consult with on your bible study. Let me know if I can help.

[BobRyan]

"The prolific use of Ellen White as a hammer has done more damage to SDA themselves as well as to do great damage outside the Church. I mean this not only corporately but also individually as well."

Of course that too is "one man's opinion". There is little doubt that Ellen Whites work has been the greatest blessing this church has ever had. Quite possibly, ever WILL have in terms of a messenger.

Thousands and thousands have found great comfort in her work, testimonies and principles of life. Wow, it is an amazing body of work, truly, inspired of God.

That is a true statement.

But as John tells us in John 1 "men loved darkness rather than light".

In 1Cor 14 Paul says that the church is to "desire earnestly spiritual gifts - but especially that you may prophesy".

And in 1Thess 5 we are told "not to despise prophetic messages"

In fact anyone with a true "Give me the Bible" heart for truth knows that the Bible says that we are to "listen to God's Prophets - so you will prosper".

It is the path of success to ACCEPT the messages that come to us from God through His prophets.

Very often on the internet you will find that you are in discussion either with a non-SDA or with a young infant-SDA that has not yet come to the point of understanding the Bible teaching on the doctrine of spiritual gifts and prophecy so they have not yet accepted the prophetic ministry of Ellen White - or if they have accepted it they take a "pick-and-choose" approach to it trying to mold it into their own image.

For those people you need to make your arguments "sola scriptura" until they get their feet established on the solid ground of the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

We got one potential group of folks who are perhaps considering the merits of the Seventh-day Adventist beliefs, which we show through scripture alone.

We have another group of professed Seventh-day Adventists who deny the power of the prophet or openly deny her AS a prophet and thus attack the foundation of SDA beliefs.

I see far more of group #2 around here Bob, and they aint helping group #1 in the least!

[miz3]

I use the tools God gave us all for bible study. I've found the bible commentary CD to be especially useful. It includes the research edition for EGW writings as well, if you didn't know.

Both sources are powerful research tools miz3, I know they would be a blessing to you. How lonely it must be for you with no one to consult with on your bible study. Let me know if I can help.

I am not lonely, ClubV12, God and the Holy Spirit are with me all the time. They are especially with me when I read His Word, the Bible.

They are very dependable!

I know of no better sources of knowledge!

I hope not, but it seems they are strangely absent from your source list.

[ClubV12]

Sadly, what you seem to be missing miz3 is a fundamental understanding on how the Holy Spirit works. I would urge you to reconsider your position on how the Holy Spirit works through people and His prophets for your edification. His modern day prophet, Ellen White, is an excellent source of valuable information in that regard.

[BobRyan]

Look, I came in the SDA church back in 1988. I got hammered with EGW & that's what I read.

Here's the problem - her main focus is on Christian living. If you try living that life without understanding the gospel you will do two things:

1] Drift off into legalism.

[BobRyan]

We got one potential group of folks who are perhaps considering the merits of the Seventh-day Adventist beliefs, which we show through scripture alone.

We have another group of professed Seventh-day Adventists who deny the power of the prophet or openly deny her AS a prophet and thus attack the foundation of SDA beliefs.

I see far more of group #2 around here Bob, and they aint helping group #1 in the least!

That is true - but as SDAs rejecting the ministry of Ellen White (or merely taking a pick-and-choose slice and dice solution) they show that they still do not actually understand the Bible teaching on prophecy.

Their flaw is their incomplete knowledge and acceptance of the Bible itself.

I agree that the result is that they misunderstand and misrepresent the 28FB at times when they do that. However for those whose core problem is failure to fully understand and accept the teaching found in scripture (on a subject like prophecy for example) - the solution is to take them to scripture so they can correct their error.

If they refuse to be convicted by scripture -- Ellen White will be of no help to them.

in Christ,

Bob

[miz3]

Thank you ClubV12, but I think it is you who do not understand how the Holy Spirit works.

Read again and again:

1Corinthians 2:6-16!

[Tom Wetmore]

Why do you leave out the majority that fit in neither of the skewed categories you describe?

The problem with what you incessantly argue is that you are only allowing two groups, those that agree 100% with you and those who don't.

There is much more diversity of perspectives within the Church than that.