What IS the Adventist perspective?

[ClubV12]

And the purpose for your pointing out Ellen Whites personal take on meat is...???

To establish that she is what? A liar? A false prophet? A human being with like passions as ourselves? Just what is the reason, Woody?

That we should look to HER and follow HER example? That her counsel is bad? What is it Woody? What spirit is this insight offered in?

[Woody]

V12 - Check out the discussion on Pipim. Some feel that if a leader sins - or falls short - they must resign. I am not of that school of thought. I point this out about Ellen's meat eating to show that we don't need to throw out the baby with the bath water.

There are many who feel that Ellen White was never wrong. I am not with that crowd. But, I don't hold our prophet up to any kind of high standard. She was a sinner just like me.

That is the message I am attempting to proclaim.

[ClubV12]

Well said Woody, I agree, she was a person of like passion as us, growing in her understanding of the christian walk, progressing with age as that understanding grew. And at the same time, doing her job, which was to write out and declare that which God revealed to her (in spite of her personal life).

I have been following the Pipim thread. I do agree that in this instance, he "probably" should have resigned. Actually, I don't know enough about the details to say whether he should have or not.

But Ellen White DOES counsel that the church has to have some basic standards for membership and higher standards for our leaders. So, resignation, firing, withdrawal of a pastors credentials, disfellowship, are all reasonable options depending on the circumstances. In my opinion. Some members should never hold a church office even if they are in good standing. There are many and varied ways to deal with these issues.

[Woody]

Well I'm inclined to disagree with you. Just because Pipim committed one sin does not make his ministry (however good or bad it was) - null and void.

We should test the message not the messenger. That is how I treat our prophet. I don't have to defend her in any way. She received and understood the health message in 1863. She repeatedly proclaimed that she had stopped eating meat many time in the years hence. But she always returned. This is a huge message of hope to me (a sinner). It says that even the best will not be able to stop some sins (even when asking the help of Jesus). Our hope is in the second coming where those who accept Jesus will be made whole and fit for God's Kingdom.

[ClubV12]

I don't know how many sins or the nature of the sins is in Pipims case, so I cannot make a call as to whether or not he should have resigned.

Suffice it to say, a moral fall cannot be compared to meat eating under any circumstances.

[CoAspen]

Where did YOU learn about the Sabbath CoAspen?

...I rest my case. So when was the last time you had a vision that revealed new light on a point of doctrine or the 28 fundamental beliefs? Oh, you've never had one? Well then the question remains: Where did YOU learn about the Sabbath?

How many times do you have to be told???!!!

The Bible...4th commandment..part of the 10 commandments...in the OT.

As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord, he died for our sins, rose from the grave...not someone else!!

[Woody]

I don't know how many sins or the nature of the sins is in Pipims case, so I cannot make a call as to whether or not he should have resigned.

Suffice it to say, a moral fall cannot be compared to meat eating under any circumstances.

I think you are missing the point. The point that some make is for a leader to say one thing and do another.

[Woody]

I don't know how many sins or the nature of the sins is in Pipims case, so I cannot make a call as to whether or not he should have resigned.

Suffice it to say, a moral fall cannot be compared to meat eating under any circumstances.

Ellen White believes that if you eat meat your prayers will not be answered. I would say that is of some import to the Christian:

"You place upon your table butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 362)

And this: " Let not any of our ministers set an evil example in the eating of flesh meat." CD 711 MS 133 1902

[ClubV12]

Not exactly, CoAspen. Someone told you, someone told them, someone told that person, all the way back to a discussion in the mid 1800's about it. But it was only a discussion, until God revealed it to Ellen White and confirmed it as a point of doctrine! It wasn't the "bible and the bible only" at all, it was the bible AND a spirit of prophecy working together.

Our faith is built on the shoulders of the giants who came before us.

[Woody]

"But don't you quote Sister White. I don't want you ever to quote Sister White until you get your vantage ground where you know where you are. Quote the Bible. Talk the Bible. It is full of meat, full of fatness. Carry it right out in your life, and you will know more Bible than you know now. You will have fresh matter - O, you will have precious matter; you won't be going over and over the same ground, and you will see a world saved. You will see souls for whom Christ has died. And I ask you to put on the armor, every piece of it, and be sure that your feet are shod with the preparation of the gospel. " {SpM 174.1}

[ClubV12]

Ellen White believes that if you eat meat your prayers will not be answered. I would say that is of some import to the Christian:

"You place upon your table butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 362)

Do you think she is lieing Woody? Do you think this is some misplaced personal opinion of hers? Is she speaking the truth here, or not?

The spirit in which you offer these quotes is not the spirit of Christ. You ARE denigrating the prophet and God has specific warnings concerning those who undertake this work. Are you a Seventh-day Adventist, and yet fight against the Lords messenger? It is shameful to see professed SDA's heaping such disrespect on the prophet!

MARK HER WORDS CAREFULLY:

IF, you persist in feeding your children butter, eggs and meat and things that "excite their animal passions" and ask God to bless your children, how high do you think your prayers go?

Has the level of piety fallen so low that many of us are not even capable of discerning the voice of God through His messenger? THAT is the REAL problem with Ellen White, her counsel is "to hard, who can hear it?" She's not here to tickle your ears, that is Woody's job, chose wisely who you would take your counsel from!

[Woody]

Okay Good. Then I take it you agree that meat eating is a serious offense. For a moment I thought you were trivializing it. Sorry. I am having trouble understanding you when you jump from one extreme to another so quickly.

[CoAspen]

Not exactly, CoAspen. Someone told you, someone told them, someone told that person, all the way back to a discussion in the mid 1800's about it. But it was only a discussion, until God revealed it to Ellen White and confirmed it as a point of doctrine! It wasn't the "bible and the bible only" at all, it was the bible AND a spirit of prophecy working together.

Our faith is built on the shoulders of the giants who came before us.

Dude, you be having a serious disconnect from reality!!

Adios!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't have a problem quoting Ellen White either. Frankly, I don't get why people are SO paranoid it takes away from the bible in some way. We here the CONSTANT drum beat of, "BUT, we need the bible and the bible alone". Fine, sure, OK, I get it, "BUT" look around at all the other churches on the planet and the myriad of interpretations and misleading doctrines they hold. So what sets Seventh-day Adventists apart? A modern day prophet correcting, assuring, pointing to a correct understanding of the bible and interpretation.

If not for the Lords messenger "we" would be no different than any other church. Still keeping Sunday, clueless about the state of the dead, lost to the concept of the investigative judgment and a mishmash of 28 messed up fundamental beliefs.

Sure, the bible and the bible alone, pfffft, like you would have a clue where to start without Ellen White. Lot's of things are easy, AFTER, someone has told you where to look! Sure, THEN it's a piece of cake! There's a reason God raised up a messenger for our time, who just happened to be Ellen White. Make no mistake, it could have been someone else, this is of the LORD, not some human messenger. It's because we were to bone headed and ignorant to figure it for ourselves.

Don't need Ellen White eh? And pigs fly...

Oh dear...those poor people on Pitcairn Island...keeping the Sabbath without ever hearing of EGW. Oh my... whatever shall we do about that?? Alas...

[ClubV12]

If you don't see the beauty in Ellen Whites counsel, in EVERY regard, you don't see Jesus. Everything she presents is for our edification, our blessing, our spiritual and physical health.

Lot's of people keep the Sabbath, somebody, somewhere has since the beginning of time. How did Pitcairn fare on the rest of the doctrinal points? How did the 7th Day Baptist's fare on their doctrinal points?

Is it your intent, rudywoofs, like Woody, CoAspen, miz3 and so many others here, to minimize the importance of the Lords messenger for our time? To undercut her counsel so desperately needed in our time? To claim to believe but deny the power thereof? To make her work of no effect?

I hope that is not the intent of anyone, but that is so consistenly portrayed in thread after thread and post after post it is the only logical conclusion left.

"If not for the Lords messenger "we" would be no different than any other church." Including those that keep the Sabbath.

[phkrause]

Ellen White believes that if you eat meat your prayers will not be answered. I would say that is of some import to the Christian:

"You place upon your table butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 362)

And this: " Let not any of our ministers set an evil example in the eating of flesh meat." CD 711 MS 133 1902

I do believe that she includes her self in that! And I have to say that I don't personally get, "that our prays will not be answered if we eat meat," out of that. we need to read at least a number of pages before and after that sentence. I'd actually ask why is she saying that. What was or is the purpose of telling these parents something like that? There's obviously a reason behind that statement! Don't you think? There are statements in the Bible that I ask the same questions to. There might not be an answer right away but someday we'll come across something and we'll say OK now I understand. I mean how many times has that happen? I know that's happen to me many times.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If you don't see the beauty in Ellen Whites counsel, in EVERY regard, you don't see Jesus. Everything she presents is for our edification, our blessing, our spiritual and physical health.

Lot's of people keep the Sabbath, somebody, somewhere has since the beginning of time. How did Pitcairn fare on the rest of the doctrinal points? How did the 7th Day Baptist's fare on their doctrinal points?

Is it your intent, rudywoofs, like Woody, CoAspen, miz3 and so many others here, to minimize the importance of the Lords messenger for our time? To undercut her counsel so desperately needed in our time? To claim to believe but deny the power thereof? To make her work of no effect?

I hope that is not the intent of anyone, but that is so consistenly portrayed in thread after thread and post after post it is the only logical conclusion left.

"If not for the Lords messenger "we" would be no different than any other church." Including those that keep the Sabbath.

I don't worship Ellen White. She wrote a lot of good things. She also wrote things that were a product of her time and environment, not necessarily inspired. She wrote specific advice to various individuals, which doesn't necessarily warrant the histrionics of not abiding by the advice given to someone about whose circumstances we are completely unaware.

Discernment. Discernment. Discernment. And again, I say, DISCERNMENT.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

**off topic**

Got my first jar of "Roma" the other day. Whew, giving up coffee is gonna be a battle and a march. That Roma stuff aint that good!

It's a work of progress, but the goal posts are clearly defined, and the goal IS possible!

Try "Pero"... it's better..

[miz3]

Oh dear...those poor people on Pitcairn Island...keeping the Sabbath without ever hearing of EGW. Oh my... whatever shall we do about that?? Alas...

Oh! No!

The sky must be falling!

You mean rudywoofs and I agree on something.

I can't take it.

[miz3]

I don't worship Ellen White. She wrote a lot of good things. She also wrote things that were a product of her time and environment, not necessarily inspired. She wrote specific advice to various individuals, which doesn't necessarily warrant the histrionics of not abiding by the advice given to someone about whose circumstances we are completely unaware.

Discernment. Discernment. Discernment. And again, I say, DISCERNMENT.

PERFECT! rudywoofs this is just PERFECT!

What am I saying, have I gone crazy. My world is out of control.

Maybe it would help if I put a carrot in my ear! or Maybe its just a bad dream, rudywoofs and miz3 in perfect agreement.

(just a private joke between rudywoofs and miz3).

*****The first statement in color is for real and very serious. Any words after that are just my musings with rudywoofs.*****

[ClubV12]

As far as I can see, nobody "worships" Paul, Moses or Ellen White either, it's a non-issue. I hear people say that, on here, a lot, I don't know what they are implying when they do. Is that some kind "pot shot" at the prophet or the ones who believe in the prophet, or both? Is the intention to make light of the prophets work?

"DISCERNMENT."

THAT is what so many are missing. Paul also had a personal opinion on the matter of marriage. Perhaps a verse or two out of his entire biblical record. Ellen White is very much the same in that regard. A small percentage of what she wrote is personal opinion. Off the top of my head, that amounts to her comments on the "reform dress", and that about sums it up as far as her counsel goes.

Her counsel to many, many others as found in the Testimonies were specifically meant to be instruction for our time and beyond and for a much wider audience. When Paul wrote the Corinthians, or any other church, the same principle applies. Those "testimonies" he wrote were to reach far beyond the immediate people to whom he was writing, as Ellen White also intended. That's why it's important to apply the principles involved, not the specific details to a specific person.

THAT requires "discernment".

If you consider the Testimonies mere "letters" to some individual and therefore, readily dismissed, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the prophets work. Following that logic, we could dismiss vast sections of the bible talking about "specific people", that was for "their time" and has no significance for our time. Of course, such reasoning is obviously incorrect. We look not to the "specific people" recorded in the bible, we look to the expierence to see what principles apply to us today. As the early church did, as Luther did, as the founders of the SDA church did.

[ClubV12]

"...butter, eggs, and meat."

phk "gets it". What is the principle involved here? And I have read a large section of that specific quote and compared it to others. She is talking about a rich diet, heavy on the listed items and lacking in fruits and vegetables. In some cases her counsel on this issue was directly aimed at a butcher, whose family ate large amounts of meat and pork and almost nothing else! The counsel here is about choosing wisely the diet. Not always looking just for "tasty things", over eating (gluttony), eating all the time (stomach never rests). Applying the principle many other foods could be incorporated into the counsel as well. And WHY? Simple answer, it's unhealthy. And if you KNOW it's unhealthy and PERSIST in eating that way, how high do you think your prayers will go for your children? Or, even for yourself.

The purpose behind the health message is for us to have a clearer mind, more mental awareness, a calmer spirit open to spiritual things. These are not some "legalistic laws" being handed down, it's good counsel for those seeking a closer relationship with Him.

It is not her personal opinion, it is divine revelation. Ignore it at your own risk. Where it seemingly conflicts with modern science, I'll stay with what the prophet had to say on the subject and wait for "modern science" to catch up.

[miz3]

ClubV12,

Is EGW the only source of knowing the Sabbath Truth as you have here asserted?

[ClubV12]

Was she the source in the 1400's when there were Sabbath keepers? I did not say she was the only source, ever. I have plainly stated there have always been a sabbath keeping people, through out time, somewhere in the world.

HOWEVER, the question remains: Where did YOU learn about the Sabbath truth miz3? Woody? CoAspen? Anyone?

The fourth commandment you say? NOT, says I! You CONFIRMED it with the fourth commandment, you didn't learn it from there. The root for the Seventh-day Adventist faith traces directly back to Ellen White and her confirmation to the believers of her time that it was the correct interpretation of scripture.

7th Day Baptist's keep the Sabbath. What is the primary difference between their doctrines and ours and why is there a difference? Simple answer, a prophet. Remove the prophet, as you have clearly done miz3, and your left to beat upon the rocks of misinterpretation on many points of doctrine.

[miz3]

Remove the prophet, as you have clearly done miz3, and your left to beat upon the rocks of misinterpretation on many points of doctrine.

Not when it comes to the Sabbath. I get the Sabbath as did those 1400 ones did and the Pitcairn people did.

THE BIBLE!