We Thought Our Lord Should Come....

[teresaq]

Well the original topic got locked so I couldn't put this there... Or perhaps its better here...

Again, thanks to Bobryan who started this train of thought in me...

Why don't we take advantage of Mr. Camping's situation and beliefs without attacking, or making fun of him or his followers?

We could have the subject title put out boards outside our churches and give a history of our church, how we thought the Lord would come in 1844, while at the same time teaching about the 2300 days. We would also be sympathizing with those "fooled" without making fun of them and perhaps win some.

[Haldog]

Just like the SDA church, Camping's followers now believe that Jesus DID DO something on that date. Camping made-up something about it was a "spiritual" coming and not a physical coming. The "real" rapture will happen this fall he said.

Sounds familiar, huh? Very similar to what Ellen and company did after 1844.

[ClubV12]

Of course the BIG difference is, the "math" works for 1844. Not just for SDA's, but for many different bible scholars in different faiths around the world, regardless of the popular opinion then or today.

However, Campings "math" will not stand the test of time or come to be universally accepted.

...other than that, yeah, it's an interesting comparison all right!

If we directly compare Camping to Miller, it seems to me Miller himself did not set a specific date at first. Saying "something" was going to happen around 1843. Then he DID set a more approximate date for spring 1844. Finally, he ACCEPTED a date from other bible scholars, but didn't find himself, for October 1844. Following October 1844 different people set different dates out of desperation and popular opinion and money. It was "good business" setting dates. But no serious bible student considered any date following 1844, it was over, for sure, done.

Based on Campings logic, many others could set dates for who knows how long into the future and attach Campings name to it. Whether Camping agree's or not, like some had done in Millers name.

[Haldog]

The "math" worked for Camping too. There is NO IJ in the bible, it cannot stand alone. It is extra-biblical.

[BobRyan]

Many people have suddenly come to an interest in this subject as a result of the publicity that Camping's situaton created. Now is the time to share what we know to be the truth about the Judgment and the end of the world - since we have a lot of people who are looking for real answers on those questions.

No reason to hide the IJ in Dan 7:9-10, 22 from the public the way some other groups do -

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Haven't seen Campings math. When and if you get several bible scholars from different denominations independantly verifying Campings math, get back to me on that. At this point, it appears it's only Camping and his immediate group of supporters that see anything in the numbers. Hardly "universally" accepted, which Miller, by and large, was and still is today. His math really does work and can be independantly verified by a wide range of people. You don't even have to a christian to understand the 2,300 year prophecy, it just works out.

As to the meaning of it, well I think it's all related to the IJ, you may not. But the meaning and the numbers are two different issues. 1844 is solid as a rock, still.

[nuff sed]

It's a great time to say to friends and neighbors, "Hey, I see that you are still here . Let me tell you how it really is going to end." and give them a copy of "Darkness Before Dawn" (Last few chapters of Great Controversy--.75 ABC) Nuff sed........

[Gerr]

Just like the SDA church, Camping's followers now believe that Jesus DID DO something on that date. Camping made-up something about it was a "spiritual" coming and not a physical coming. The "real" rapture will happen this fall he said.

Sounds familiar, huh? Very similar to what Ellen and company did after 1844.

So what do YOU think happened in 1844?

[Gerr]

The "math" worked for Camping too. There is NO IJ in the bible, it cannot stand alone. It is extra-biblical.

Sez who? Once your eyes are opened, you'll see the IJ all over the Bible. We've covered the subject several times over the years. Judgment is a notion that goes from Genesis to Revelation.

[Gustave]

I believe that would cause a disaster membership-wise for the SDA Church....

...I'm thinking the official SDA Church would choose another way to terminate itself other than that.

...I'll try to explaine.

William Miller had a simple two part message....

...Repent, because Jesus was coming in the Sping of 1843 or 1844.

...That was IT, there was no other message.

...Other than the 3rd speculation that due to calendation it was 22 October 1844.

An individual "on the ground" within the time hack of Millerism...

...Could ONLY judge the message being promulgated.

...And that message was:

...Repent because Jesus is coming in Spring of 43, or 44 THAN for sure on Oct 22, 1844.

...Again, that was IT - there was no other message.

That "message" was a LIE, Jesus didn't come.....

...And the I.J. doctrine of SDA came something like 15 years SUBSEQUENT.

...To the INITIAL false message ( which was the ONLY message ).

An individual "on the ground" would ONLY be able to judge the teaching being promulgated...

...And Miller's teaching VIOLATED explicit teaching in the Bible.

...Therefore to be active and part of the Millerite movement one had to REJECT the Bible.

...William Miller repudiated his own error and publically stated he was WRONG.

The movement broke up leaving ONLY the folks who didn't have a church family to return to....

...These were the Arian heretics which crept into the movement.

...After the party was over these Arians were looking at each other.

...And formed a body which soon fragmented into cell groups.

Bringing attention to the fact that SDA's were part of a group which violated Scripture...

...And promulgated a "LIE" until what was left of the movement broke into factions.

...Then attempted to install several false theological devices.

...To justify why Jesus didn't return.

...To ultimately, in the end, claim something invisible happened at the final date of 22 Oct 1844.

This is EXACTLY what Camping did and just like the SDA's Mr Camping....

...Claimed something "invisible" took place and is still holding to a date of 21 October 2011.

The sign can't say "We thought our Lord should come"....

...To be honest the sign would have to say;

...We, like camping said Jesus was going to come in the Spring of 1843.

...And when that didn't happen we said the Lord would come in Spring of 1844.

...And when that didn't happen we said the Lord would come on 22 October 1844.

...And when that didn't happen we tried several theological devices which failed.

...Eventually, 15 years after the initial false message.

...We said Jesus entered a literal temple in heaven and started invistigating the Saints?

The General Conference would NEVER go for a sign claiming they participate in the above...

...They have better luck twisting the actual history of the time hack.

...And slowly programming the converts into this faith.

[BobRyan]

Haven't seen Campings math. When and if you get several bible scholars from different denominations independantly verifying Campings math, get back to me on that. At this point, it appears it's only Camping and his immediate group of supporters that see anything in the numbers.

Indeed - he goes off into the area of fiction when he imagines that the 7 days Noah waited inside the ark dictate that the world be destroyed in the 7000th year exactly.

He also goes off into fiction when he imagines that this year is the 7000'th year on earth for mankind.

He went into imaginary fiction when he claimed a pre-trib rapture on May 21 of this year. So at least with his currently failed prediction he is looking for a post-trib rapture on Oct 21.

And he still has totally missed the Matt 24:32 point that there will be no announcement to mankind of the coming of Christ - not until Christ shows up will mankind as a group be given that message.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gustave]

Indeed - he goes off into the area of fiction when he imagines that the 7 days Noah waited inside the ark dictate that the world be destroyed in the 7000th year exactly.

He also goes off into fiction when he imagines that this year is the 7000'th year on earth for mankind.

He went into imaginary fiction when he claimed a pre-trib rapture on May 21 of this year. So at least with his currently failed prediction he is looking for a post-trib rapture on Oct 21.

And he still has totally missed the Matt 24:32 point that there will be no announcement to mankind of the coming of Christ - not until Christ shows up will mankind as a group be given that message.

in Christ,

Bob

Did William Miller's teaching of what was to happen on 22 October 1844 as well as Spring 1843/44...

...Violate Matt 24,32 in the same way Camping's teaching violated it?

...Miller's ONLY teaching was to repent BECAUSE Jesus was coming in Spring 43/44 and 22 Oct 44.

...How was a Christian supposed to "judge" that teaching Bob?

[phkrause]

Did William Miller's teaching of what was to happen on 22 October 1844 as well as Spring 1843/44...

...Violate Matt 24,32 in the same way Camping's teaching violated it?

...Miller's ONLY teaching was to repent BECAUSE Jesus was coming in Spring 43/44 and 22 Oct 44.

...How was a Christian supposed to "judge" that teaching Bob?

Sure it did, but that wasn't Bob's point!!! And who are we to judge anyone????? The SDA church has never judged WM for making a mistake, not telling a "Lie" as you are emplying. WM was not making up something as Camping was.

[Gustave]

Sure it did, but that wasn't Bob's point!!! And who are we to judge anyone????? The SDA church has never judged WM for making a mistake, not telling a "Lie" as you are emplying. WM was not making up something as Camping was.

The Millerite teaching that Christ was going to come in 43/44 ( definite time )...

...Was a "lie", as surely as night follows the day.

...The ONLY teaching was to repent - because Jesus was coming at a DEFINITE TIME.

Camping's teaching was to repent because the rapture was going to take place at a "definite time"...

...That teaching was also a lie.

...And violated the Scriptures in the exact way WM's teaching did.

As a Christian we ONLY have the ability to JUDGE "the teaching"...

...Individuals can't judge a teaching in the here and now.

...By appealing to what THE TEACHING will eventually mutate into.

...This rubric makes a mockery of Christ, His Church and the Sacred Scriptures.

If Camping follows the SDA protocol he simply needs to wait an additional 15 years....

...Then re-work his prophetic rubik's cube.

...And make his announcement to the world.

...That he got the time right but the event wrong.

Elements within Campings faction will produce Scriptures to justify this NEW teaching...

...And a "prophet" will come forth and validate the new teaching.

...Because the new teaching can be read into the Bible.

...The group will claim the doctrine is based off the Bible.

...Even though it was private interpretation which produced it.

Therefore to bypass the private interpretation problem....

...A prophet is needed to validate the previous private interpretation of Scripture.

...And so the wheels on the bus go round and round.

[cheddar]

Gustave,

What's the Catholic understanding of the 2300 days? What do they think happened at the end of those days? I've never heard it mentiond so I'm curious to find out.

[Musicman1228]

The disappointment of Oct 22, 1944 was foretold by Jesus in His prophecy in Matt 25:1-13. The purpose of this prophecy is to identify who the Kingdom of Heaven is to those who claim to be in that Kingdom.

Jesus said that THEN, at that time*, the K of H would be like 10 Bridesmaids that WENT OUT TO MEET THE BRIDEGROOM at a specific time. These 10 Bridesmaids thought that they were the Bride, but they were not. They were supposed to get the Bride ready for the Groom, but since they thought they were the Bride they failed to do this.

The Bridegroom delayed His come because the Bridesmaids had not prepared the Bride for His coming. If He had come AT THAT TIME no one would have been ready, so no one would have been saved. And because He did not come when they expected Him to come all 10 of the Bridesmaids fell asleep.

Historically this description can only apply to one body of believers-Millerite Adventists, which later became the SDA church. Therefore, today the Kingdom of Heaven on earth IS the SDA church. The problem is that because the whole church is asleep they don't realize who they are, and because of this they do not understand that they have been charged by God to get the Bride ready to meet her Bridegroom.

Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.   (3) Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Rev.3:2-3.

The cry at midnight is "The Bridegroom is here, come out to meet Him". This means that all 10 Bridesmaids SLEPT THROUGH THE COMING OF THE BRIDEGROOM. To them He came as a Thief in the night, and they did not know when He would come to them.

The only people who actually knew when the Bridegroom would come and were prepared for that coming were the Faithful and Wise Bondservant and His fellow servants (Matt.24:45-51). *The 'at that time' (then) stated at the beginning of this prophecy means 'when the Master came to seal the Faithful and Wise Bondservant and his fellow Bondservants; and these people are the 144,000.

[Windsor]

I've heard that Matthew 24:36 which is as follows:

But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

can also (possibly) be translated in this way:

But of that day and hour maketh known no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The second translation makes more sense to me because it's inconceivable that Jesus, who is omniscient, would be kept in the dark about the timing of His own return. Secondly, in the writings of Ellen White, she states that shortly before the return of Christ that the Father would make known to the sealed saints (when probation had closed) when Christ would return.

Thoughts?

[Gustave]

Gustave,

What's the Catholic understanding of the 2300 days? What do they think happened at the end of those days? I've never heard it mentiond so I'm curious to find out.

It's not "days" in the literal sense which is than interpreted into years...

...It was "evenings and mornings" - the "daily Sacrifice".

...Which was cast under-foot.

Daniel 8,13

Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

1 Maccabees 1,21

And after Antiochus had ravaged Egypt in the hundred and forty-third year, he returned and went up against Israel. And he went up to Jerusalem with a great multitude. And he proudly entered into the sanctuary, and took away the golden altar, and the candlestick of light, and all the vessels thereof, and the table of proposition, and the pouring vessels, and the vials, and the little mortars of gold, and the veil, and the crowns, and the golden ornament that was before the temple: and he broke them all in pieces

1 Maccabees 1,39

And they shed innocent blood round about the sanctuary, and defiled the holy place. And the inhabitants of Jerusalem fled away by reason of them, and the city was made the habitation to strangers, and she became a stranger to her own seed, and her children forsook her. Her sanctuary was desolate like a wilderness, her festival days were turned into mourning, her sabbaths into reproach, her honours were brought to nothing. Her dishonour was increased according to her glory, and her excellency was turned into mourning. And king Antiochus wrote to all his kingdom, that all the people should be one: and every one should leave his own law. And all nations consented according to the word of king Antiochus. And many of Israel consented to his service, and they sacrificed to idols, and profaned the sabbath. And the king sent letters by the hands of messengers to Jerusalem, and to all the cities of Juda: that they should follow the law of the nations of the earth, And should forbid holocausts and sacrifices, and atonements to be made in the temple of God. And should prohibit the sabbath, and the festival days, to be celebrated.And he commanded the holy places to be profaned, and the holy people of Israel.And he commanded altars to be built, and temples, and idols, and swine's flesh to be immolated, and unclean beasts

Antiochus meets all the criteria - he ceased the operation of the Sanctuary....

...For 2300 evening and morning sacrifies ( there are 2 per day ).

...For 1150 days A.E. ceased the evening and morning sacrifice in the temple.

The question was "how long" would this last....

...The answer was 2300 evening and morning sacrifices.

1 Maccabees 4,36

Then Judas, and his brethren said: Behold our enemies are discomfited: let us go up now to cleanse the holy places and to repair them. And all the army assembled together, and they went up into mount Sion. And they saw the sanctuary desolate, and the altar profaned, and the gates burnt, and shrubs growing up in the courts as in a forest, or on the mountains, and the chambers joining to the temple thrown down. And they rent their garments, and made great lamentation, and put ashes on their heads: And they fell face down to the ground on their faces, and they sounded with the trumpets of alarm, and they cried towards heaven. Then Judas appointed men to fight against them that were in the castle, till they had cleansed the holy places. And he chose priests without blemish, whose will was set upon the law of God: And they cleansed the holy places, and took away the stones that had been defiled into an unclean place. And he considered about the altar of holocausts that had been profaned, what he should do with it. And a good counsel came into their minds, to pull it down: lest it should be a reproach to them, because the Gentiles had defiled it; so they threw it down. And they laid up the stones in the mountain of the temple in a convenient place, till there should come a prophet, and give answer concerning them. Then they took whole stones according to the law, and built a new altar according to the former: And they built up the holy places, and the things that were within the temple: and they sanctified the temple, and the courts. And they made new holy vessels, and brought in the candlestick, and the altar of incense, and the table into the temple. And they put incense upon the altar, and lighted up the lamps that were upon the candlestick, and they gave light in the temple.And they set the loaves upon the table, and hung up the veils, and finished all the works that they had begun to make. And they arose before the morning on the five and twentieth day of the ninth month (which is the month of Casleu) in the hundred and forty-eighth year. And they offered sacrifice according to the law upon the new altar of holocausts which they had made. According to the time, and according to the day wherein the heathens had defiled it, in the same was it dedicated anew with canticles, and harps, and lutes, and cymbals. And all the people fell upon their faces, and adored, and blessed up to heaven, him that had prospered them. And they kept the dedication of the altar eight days, and they offered holocausts with joy, and sacrifices of salvation, and of praise.

There is MUCH, much more and if you are interested I would be happy to go through...

...What I know of these things.

...Christ validated this by attending the "Feast of the Dedication".

...And as ANY Jewish source will tell you - the feast of the Dedication.

...Is the celebration of the Sanctuary being vindicated from THE LITTLE HORN of Daniel.

John 10,21

And it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem: and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch.

Jesus attended "the Feast of the Dedication" Himself...

...That tells me in God's own word that A.E. was indeed the Little Horn of Daniel.

[cheddar]

Thank you for that Gustave, It was very enlightening.

However, it doesn't really fit with what Jesus said in Matt. 24 about the abom. of desolation.

He spoke of the abom. of desolation as a future event and Antiocus Epiphanes desecration would have been a historical event even in Jesus's time.

[Gustave]

Thank you for that Gustave, It was very enlightening.

However, it doesn't really fit with what Jesus said in Matt. 24 about the abom. of desolation.

He spoke of the abom. of desolation as a future event and Antiocus Epiphanes desecration would have been a historical event even in Jesus's time.

The abomination of desolation will operate in the same manner it always does...

...It, in effect is driven by the same evil power - Lucifer.

...There will obviously be another "little horn".

...It will operate in much the same way.

[phkrause]

Thank you for that Gustave, It was very enlightening.

However, it doesn't really fit with what Jesus said in Matt. 24 about the abom. of desolation.

He spoke of the abom. of desolation as a future event and Antiocus Epiphanes desecration would have been a historical event even in Jesus's time.

I agree cheddar. None of my Jewish relatives believes this, and none of the Jewish websites that I've been a part of, buy that at all.

[Gustave]

LOL! You must not be vising Jewish websites then...

...Call a Synagogue and ask a Rabbi.

...Are you "sure" your family is Jewish?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah

http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday7.htm

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/485,172/What-is-Chanukah.html

And now for an abridged version of the story: It is 223 BCE and the Greek Seleucid Dynasty rules parts of the Middle East, including ancient Israel. King Antiochus III is good for the Jews except for his huge taxes and cultivation of Hellenist culture. He dies. Son Seleucus IV takes over, increases taxation. Hellenistic cultural invasion of Jewish society reaches epidemic proportions--monotheistic Judaism out, humanistic Hellenism in.

Seleucus gets iced in 174 BCE, brother Antiochus IV takes throne, forcefully attempts to rub out Judaism--forbids Shabbat, Kashrut, circumcision et al on pain of death. Mass persecution/execution of Jews begins around 170 BCE.

140 BCE sees riot erupt in quaint little village Modi'in: local Jews led by elder Mattityahu and sons defend daughter/sister from pre-marriage initiation, kill Antiochus' soldiers, head for the hills. News spreads, Jewish rebel army quickly forms across country and wages increasingly successful guerilla warfare for a year.

On or around December 14, 140 BCE (the 25th of Kislev, 3622) Jewish army restores regular Temple operations with limited resources, light makeshift Menorah with one-day supply of olive oil, and miracle of miracles! Oil burns for eight days until fresh fuel arrives, and the shine of spirituality melts the senselessness of secularism, then and for all time.

In 139 BCE, the Rabbis designate those eight days as an annual holiday celebrating the chanukah, or dedication, of the Temple and the miracle of the oil. For a more detailed version of the story, go to Virtual Chanukah. But if you want the full story, I would advise you to purchase The Complete Story of Chanukah, available from Kehot Publications.1

[BobRyan]

Indeed - he goes off into the area of fiction when he imagines that the 7 days Noah waited inside the ark dictate that the world be destroyed in the 7000th year exactly.

He also goes off into fiction when he imagines that this year is the 7000'th year on earth for mankind.

He went into imaginary fiction when he claimed a pre-trib rapture on May 21 of this year. So at least with his currently failed prediction he is looking for a post-trib rapture on Oct 21.

And he still has totally missed the Matt 24:32 point that there will be no announcement to mankind of the coming of Christ - not until Christ shows up will mankind as a group be given that message.

[BobRyan]

Therefore, today the Kingdom of Heaven on earth IS the SDA church. .

Ok - well that part is wrong.

in Christ,

Bob

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Therefore, today the Kingdom of Heaven on earth IS the SDA church. .

Ok - well that part is wrong.

in Christ,

Bob

]

OK, Bob, in what way is it wrong? You declared it to be wrong but did not specify how. The description that Jesus gave as to who and what the Kingdom of Heaven would be 'at that time' fit only one group of people; it is a historical fact that it was only the Millerite movement that went out to meet the Bridegroom at a specific time BASED SOLELY UPON PROPHECY (2300 evenings and morning; Dan 9:24).

Please let me know why you think this is inaccurate. Thanks.