We Thought Our Lord Should Come....

[ClubV12]

"It seems to me that we can argue with those who choose not to believe, or, we could come up with ideas to get the message out to those who might believe."

Well put and address' why it is foolish to respond to every "time chart" and "calendar" offered for the 2,300 year prophecy. That would be a monumental task! Best to stick to one chart, one that works, present the truth and scatter it like the leaves of Autumn.

I'm painting the kitchen today (part of my remodel project). Many thanks to those who are taking up the slack while I'm very busy!

[Gustave]

This sums up the erroneus belief Gustave holds on the subject. It is not new by any means. The idea presented by this speculation goes far beyond when Christ died. It call's into question the beginning date as well, 457. Thus, the entire basis for the Seventh-day Adventist foundation is eradicated, including the Investigative Judgment.

You are thinking of a premise I'm not aware of ClubV12....

....My issue is with the SDA rubric of Christ being put to death on the Cross.

....At the Jewish Passover, in the year 27 A.D. - which coincided with a Gregorian "Friday".

That's the issue I'm talking about.

[miz3]

I have been away all day. I have read the posts while I have been away and find them laughable.

You are entitled to believe in the "year/day" stuff if you choose but to any truly honest and reasonable human being it is abundantly clear that the Bible does not support the "year/day" model.

The fact that the 490 number seems to fit is not verification of the Principle. There are many mathematical models that claim to unlock Biblical future events. In fact one such model claims to have predicted "Bin Laden". Because such models seem to fit does not validate their method nor does it make the Bible as support for such models.

Again, even if we except the start date for the 490 prophecy there is no basis for using that same start date for the 2300 whatevers. In fact the Bible gives no start date for the 2300 whatevers.

Thus the 1844 end date is bogus. To get there a person must break all the rules of truth and must dishonestly manipulate the Word of God to say what it does not say.

SDA ruin their credibility by clinging to such clearly bogus theology.

The Bible is not some complex puzzle that only the smart can figure out by using contorted models that stretch all realism.

Unfortunately SDA would rather die as did the Jews of Christ's day rather than surrender to the simplicity of God's inerrant Word.

Like the Jews of Christ's day they say if we believe the Truth we will not longer be SDA and it is better that SDA survive than to admit we have been wrong all along.

PRIDE! PRIDE! PRIDE!

By the time many SDA will figure it out, it will be too late for them.

[Aliensanctuary]

Lest we forget:

Dan 12:11

Quote:

From the moment that the perpetual sacrifice is abolished and the appalling abomination set up: a thousand two hundred and ninety days. [For some, 1290 years]

Recall who accomplishes these two tasks:

Dan 11:31

Quote:

Forces of his [King of the North] will come and profane the Citadel-Sanctuary; they will abolish the perpetual sacrifice and install the appalling abomination there.

Long livers are these men, indeed, and very patient, to wait 1290 years after they abolish the perpetual sacrifice until they set up the Abomination of Desolation.

[Aliensanctuary]

Odd that only in Dan 9 are time periods given in "sevens", not days. Scripture reads, "seventy sevens" rather than some specified number of days. What is the significance of this, and time periods given in months, not days? Perhaps the prophecy in Dan 9 is set in a different time.

Seventy Weeks at Seven days per week...

Forty-two Months at Twelve months per year...

Five loaves + two fish= Seven

Twelve baskets of leftovers remaining.

Seven loaves and a few small fish

Seven baskets of leftovers

What are we supposed to learn from these twelves and sevens?

What is the cure for a constipated mind?

[BobRyan]

The Adventist church has built its prophetic foundation on the 'day for a lie' principle and Ellen White didn't say anything about it so she won't be able to hold your hand on this one.

Jesus is going to find out who really believes in his word and who doesn't.

Just bashing the SDA position as "lying" may seem like a compelling solution to you at the moment - but as I point out - it means you have to go around calling all the other denominations that easily "get the point" of the 490 years in Dan 9 liars at well.

At some point when you find that all the world is a liar and you alone are sane - you may wish to question your logic.

At this point in time - no Christian groups on the planet are jumping at the chance to toss out Dan 9 - as one of the most amazing predictive prophecies in the Bible pointing to the first coming of Christ. You are on a long uphill battle tilting against that windmill. (To borrow a recent line from Bravus)

in Christ,

Bob

[cheddar]

Originally Posted By: cheddar

The Adventist church has built its prophetic foundation on the 'day for a lie' principle and Ellen White didn't say anything about it so she won't be able to hold your hand on this one.

Jesus is going to find out who really believes in his word and who doesn't.

Just bashing the SDA position as "lying" may seem like a compelling solution to you at the moment - but as I point out - it means you have to go around calling all the other denominations that easily "get the point" of the 490 years in Dan 9 liars at well.

At some point when you find that all the world is a liar and you alone are sane - you may wish to question your logic.

At this point in time - no Christian groups on the planet are jumping at the chance to toss out Dan 9 - as one of the most amazing predictive prophecies in the Bible pointing to the first coming of Christ. You are on a long uphill battle tilting against that windmill. (To borrow a recent line from Bravus)

in Christ,

Bob

- to finish the transgression

- to make an end of sins

- to make reconciliation for iniquity

- to bring in everlasting righteousness

- to seal up the vision and prophecy

- to anoint the most Holy

Does that sound like what happened at the cross? or what Jesus will do in the most Holy of the heavenly sanctuary? the last verse is of particular interest.

[phkrause]

Odd that only in Dan 9 are time periods given in "sevens", not days. Scripture reads, "seventy sevens" rather than some specified number of days. What is the significance of this, and time periods given in months, not days? Perhaps the prophecy in Dan 9 is set in a different time.

Seventy Weeks at Seven days per week...

Forty-two Months at Twelve months per year...

Five loaves + two fish= Seven

Twelve baskets of leftovers remaining.

Seven loaves and a few small fish

Seven baskets of leftovers

What are we supposed to learn from these twelves and sevens?

What is the cure for a constipated mind?

From what I understand 7 is a perfect number and I believe so is 12. Maybe someone can verify?

[miz3]

Just bashing the SDA position as "lying" may seem like a compelling solution to you at the moment - but as I point out - it means you have to go around calling all the other denominations that easily "get the point" of the 490 years in Dan 9 liars at well.

At some point when you find that all the world is a liar and you alone are sane - you may wish to question your logic.

At this point in time - no Christian groups on the planet are jumping at the chance to toss out Dan 9 - as one of the most amazing predictive prophecies in the Bible pointing to the first coming of Christ. You are on a long uphill battle tilting against that windmill. (To borrow a recent line from Bravus)

By your own logic SDA should give up the 2300 day prophecy, the Sanctuary Doctrine, the Investigative Judgment, etc. because they are the

LONE ENTITY THAT BELIEVES IN SUCH THINGS!

To use your own words, "no Christian groups on the planet are jumping at the chance to" believe in the Sanctuary Doctrine, the Investigative Judgment Doctrine, the 2300 Day Prophecy Doctrine.

Again: "At some point when you find that all the world is a liar and you alone are sane - you may wish to question your logic."

Does the logic sound familiar sir Bob Ryan?

We will let you take it back if you take it back in writing.

[BobRyan]

Just bashing the SDA position as "lying" may seem like a compelling solution to you at the moment - but as I point out - it means you have to go around calling all the other denominations that easily "get the point" of the 490 years in Dan 9 liars at well.

At some point when you find that all the world is a liar and you alone are sane - you may wish to question your logic.

At this point in time - no Christian groups on the planet are jumping at the chance to toss out Dan 9 - as one of the most amazing predictive prophecies in the Bible pointing to the first coming of Christ. You are on a long uphill battle tilting against that windmill. (To borrow a recent line from Bravus)

[cheddar]

All Christian denominations recognize that the main event for the people of God in the OT was the coming of the Messiah the "annointed one" of Dan 9. No chance of bending history on that one.

The transgression and sins of Israel - their probationary time ended at the time of the cross as Christ said in Matt 23 and has Paul said in 1Thess 2:15-16.

The Reconciliation made at the cross is stated by Paul in 2Cor 5:19 So also brining in everlasting righteousness.

All prophecy and vision related to the first coming are completed in Christ as we see in Col 2:17

The annointing of the Most Holy is seen in Heb 9 at the innauguration of the Heavenly sanctuary - at the resurrection of Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

I disagree.

Jesus makes it very clear in Matt. 24 that the abom. of desolation will happen in the temple just prior to the 'time of trouble'. So the verse in Dan. 9 that refers to Jerusalem being rebuilt, I have no problem with. Actually, there are many verses in Dan. and Rev. that refer to Jerusalem and the temple playing prominent roles in the last days which adventists completely ignore.

1) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: (Dan. 11) - here we have a kingdom in Jerusalem being set up prior to the time of trouble.

2) I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: (Rev. 2)

3) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (Rev. 13)

4) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness (Rev. 16) - all three verses use the same word ‘thronos’ meaning throne or seat of power.

[BobRyan]

All Christian denominations recognize that the main event for the people of God in the OT was the coming of the Messiah the "annointed one" of Dan 9. No chance of bending history on that one.

The transgression and sins of Israel - their probationary time ended at the time of the cross as Christ said in Matt 23 and has Paul said in 1Thess 2:15-16.

The Reconciliation made at the cross is stated by Paul in 2Cor 5:19 So also brining in everlasting righteousness.

All prophecy and vision related to the first coming are completed in Christ as we see in Col 2:17

The annointing of the Most Holy is seen in Heb 9 at the innauguration of the Heavenly sanctuary - at the resurrection of Christ.

[BobRyan]

Just bashing the SDA position as "lying" may seem like a compelling solution to you at the moment - but as I point out - it means you have to go around calling all the other denominations that easily "get the point" of the 490 years in Dan 9 liars at well.

At some point when you find that all the world is a liar and you alone are sane - you may wish to question your logic.

At this point in time - no Christian groups on the planet are jumping at the chance to toss out Dan 9 - as one of the most amazing predictive prophecies in the Bible pointing to the first coming of Christ. You are on a long uphill battle tilting against that windmill. (To borrow a recent line from Bravus)

[miz3]

Interesting as to how you classify things as simple and complex Bob Ryan.

I believe you are being inconsistent about your positions because your position in regard to "year/day" Principle are sooooooooooo weak! As a result you have to construct complex inconsistent arguments in order to bolster your house of cards.

[BobRyan]

As I said - it is glaringly obvious at this "after-the-fact" point in time that there is a 490 year timeline from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the ministry of Christ.

too late to pretend everyone on the planet can't see it.

The more difficult challenge of connecting the 2300 days with 1844 and the heavenly sanctuary and the IJ is "obviously" not at that level of being blindingly obvious so we would expect denominations to miss that more complex exercise.

I realize that your only solution here is to pretend you do not see the point - but that is not going to carry much weight with most of the readers here -- even if they are non-SDA.

in Christ,

Bob

[miz3]

I think the 2300 is simple. No one has a start date. Therefore there is no 1844, no investigative judgment, no sanctuary doctrine, etc.

To SDA that is much more devastating than anything about the 490 prophecy.

Add to that the clear fact the Bible does have any "year/day" Principle. Pfft! The whole house of cards falls flat as a pancake.

Its apparent that you are the one who fails to get the point by pretending that you have Biblical support for your views even to those who are non-SDA!

[cheddar]

Originally Posted By: cheddar

I disagree.

Jesus makes it very clear in Matt. 24 that the abom. of desolation will happen in the temple just prior to the 'time of trouble'.

The A.O.D happens for Israel prior to 70 AD and for Christians prior to the close of probation.

Double fulfillment as we see in Acts 2.

in Christ,

Bob

So your saying that the AOD will happen in the last days just prior to the time of trouble. Then that means that there will be a temple in the last days because the AOD happens in the temple.

Wow, your one of the few adventists that admits that - most won't even go there probably because of EGW's statements about old Jerusalem.

I think this verse from 2nd Thessalonians 2 goes really well with the AOD and it even mentions the temple.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

EGW did an almost verse by verse commentary on Matt. 24 in the Desire of Ages and she brings out the idea that Jesus mingled the destruction of Jerusalem with the end of the world. This is completely unscriptural. We all know how much God loves to mingle anything. She doesn’t even mention the AOD and she completely omits the verse where Jesus says that this generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled. This ‘generation’ being the last generation and the ‘all’ being all the things he just talked about. A day for a year timeline will never fit into one generation but a literal timeline will fit quite easily.

I think she needs to go back to Bible 101.

[Musicman1228]

Prophecy can be confusing because there are as many possible ways of interpreting prophecy as there are those that attempt to understand it. But if this is the case then how can a person ever know what a prophecy really means. It is my understanding that God gave those of us living at the end of time all of the prophecy we need to be ready for the shaking of the SDA church, the Great Tribulation, and the Coming of our King. God did this through the prophecies of Jesus Christ in Matthew and John, and in Daniel and Revelation. Everything we need to know is contained in these prophecies, we need NO other prophets of any kind to interpret or enhance these prophecies for us. So not only do we not need EGW but we do not need the prophecies of ANYONE claiming a prophetic gift at the end of time. These prophets just confuse the issue and make prophecy harder to understand than it needs to be.

As a response to those who would challenge this understanding I offer what I consider to be the most comprehensive yet easy to understand rules for interpreting prophecy for yourself. If you apply these rules to ANY end time prophecy you will find the prophecy literally interprets itself. Here they are:

1.All prophecy has a beginning and ending point in time. Elements within a prophecy are consecutive and occur in chronological order.

2.In order for a prophetic fulfillment to occur, ALL elements of the prophecy must occur as stated within the prophecy. (This precludes partial or multiple fulfillments, or types of fulfillments.)

3.The interpretation for a symbol will be given within the prophecy. If no interpretation is given, then the symbol is to be taken literally.

4.Timing within the restoration calendar (Jubilee) is given in days/years. One day equals one year. Timing after the expiration of the "restoration calendar" is literal.

5.Time Elements - A year is one rotation of the earth around the sun, calculated as beginning at the Spring Equinox. The half year occurs on the Fall Equinox. Months are calculated from the lunar cycle and begin on the New Moon and end the day before the next new moon. Weeks begin on the first day of the week (Sunday) and end on the seventh day of the week (Sabbath). A Day is the rotation of the earth around its axis in 24 hours.

6.Time Specific Prophecy - Certain prophecies or elements of prophecy have a specific time for their understanding. These prophecies can be read anytime, but the understanding of the interpretation of these prophecies is sealed up until a specific time has been reached. Before these prophecies are unsealed (understood at the specific time) it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to be understood and/or accurately interpreted.

7.Only the Wise will understand - both the time when the prophecy is unsealed and the accurate interpretation of the prophecy when it is unsealed. (See Dan. 12: 9-10)

[BobRyan]

So your saying that the AOD will happen in the last days just prior to the time of trouble. Then that means that there will be a temple in the last days because the AOD happens in the temple.

Hint - That was the point where an actual Bible quote would have been helpful - just then.

Dan 9:27, Dan 12:11.

Show us that AOD in the Temple please

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I think the 2300 is simple. No one has a start date.

The start date for the 2300 years of Dan 8 is given in Dan 9 where the first 490 years of that 2300 are dedicated to the close of the probationary period for the Jews (Daniel's people) and the start event in Dan 9 is in the same period as the start of Dan 8 - which is during the dominant period of the Medo-Persian empire - the time of the restoration of Jerusalem.

Thus the 2300 year timeline is more complicated than the direct 490 year timeline.

But both are day for a year.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

"I think she needs to go back to Bible 101."

I find it very tiring to see the Lords messenger consistenly disparaged around here. It increases my resolve to hold the banner of truth a little higher, a little longer.

"The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God... It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction." (LDE 177, 178)

[BobRyan]

Club - you say that as if Cheddar were claiming to be a Seventh-day Adventist.

Is that really the case?? If so then your quote would apply. But we really could not expect non-SDAs to know of or accept Ellen White's prophetic ministry.

in Christ,

Bob

[cheddar]

Originally Posted By: cheddar

So your saying that the AOD will happen in the last days just prior to the time of trouble. Then that means that there will be a temple in the last days because the AOD happens in the temple.

Hint - That was the point where an actual Bible quote would have been helpful - just then.

Dan 9:27, Dan 12:11.

Show us that AOD in the Temple please

in Christ,

Bob

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matt 24:15

[cheddar]

Club - you say that as if Cheddar were claiming to be a Seventh-day Adventist.

Is that really the case?? If so then your quote would apply. But we really could not expect non-SDAs to know of or accept Ellen White's prophetic ministry.

in Christ,

Bob

This is the reason I never talk about prophecy because of Adventists like you. Most only have a basic understanding so they're not even going to know what I'm talking about and the ones who do, well they're going to be Ellen White's disciples just like you, Bob Ryan.

[ClubV12]

My apologies to Cheddar, whose statement I found to be representative of many who DO claim to be a Seventh-day Adventist around here!

If this quote weren't so long I'd make it my "signature line", with no apologies to anyone. This is, after all, a Seventh-day Adventist forum. Where the Lords messenger is routinely denigrated by some who make the claim to be SDA's. Thus, working toward fulfilling this very prophecy of Ellen White!