We Thought Our Lord Should Come....

[Kountzer]

Originally Posted By: Haldog

The "math" worked for Camping too. There is NO IJ in the bible, it cannot stand alone. It is extra-biblical.

Sez who? Once your eyes are opened, you'll see the IJ all over the Bible. We've covered the subject several times over the years. Judgment is a notion that goes from Genesis to Revelation.

Agreed.

[miz3]

Gustave,

Powerful stuff from you again!

The SDA view of the 2300 days/years prophecy hinges on what they use as the YEAR/DAY PRINCIPLE.

This Principle of SDA theology of course did not originate with SDA. Miller used it and others before him used it.

To me a question remains:

How is the year/day Principle a valid Principle?

What is the Biblical basis for this Principle?

When does the Bible say it is valid to use this Principle?

Alright SDA prophetic gurus its you ball.

[cheddar]

That's a double barrel loaded question right there!

A principle is a law or rule or something that holds true in every situation.

By that definition alone the day for a year principle falls short in Dan. and Rev.

1) the seven times that passed over Nebuchadnezzar - literal

2) the three weeks that Daniel fasted - literal

3) the 1000 years or millennium - literal

The day for a year principle is something that's put on top of the scriptures, completely changes the meaning and if removed the scriptures make perfect sense without it.

Sounds like something Satan would do to me.

[Gustave]

Again, it's simply Catholicism 101 and part of the Catechism...

...It's there for any to read.

Romans 5,10 DR

For if, when we were enemies, we WERE reconciled to God by the death of his Son; much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.And not only so; but also we glory in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have NOW received reconciliation

What follows is part of the history PRIOR to the I.J. being thought of...

...It's accurate and documented.

Summary of the seventh month movement & Ellen White's involvement in it.

Time hack: 1818 - 1851

Location (s): New York & Maine

Players: George Storrs, Samual Snow, William Miller, Ellen White & her immediate religious contemporaries

William Miller ( Feb 15, 1792 - Dec 20, 1849 ) was a Baptist Minister who felt he had cracked the chronology code for the 2nd Advent of Christ...

...Miller initially realized this by 1818 via personal Bible study but did not go public with the information until August 1831.

...& in 1832 Miller submitted a series of 16 article via the "Vermont Telegraph" & was soon burried with interest by readers.

By 1834 there was so much interest in Miller's theory he produced a synopsis of it in a 64 page tract - which was titled...

..."Evidence from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ, about the year 1843".

Miller's followers increased greatly from 1840 due to a religious named Joshua Vaughan Himes who was an experienced publsher...

...Himes, by 1842 had established the periodical paper "Signs of the Times" in effort to get the word out in-mass.

...It worked.

William Miller's message was: Repent & get ready - for Jesus will come in Spring 1843 or 1844...

...That was the TOTAL of Miller's message, there was NOTHING ELSE.

My principles in brief, are, that Jesus Christ will come again to this earth, cleanse, purify, and take posession of the saints, sometime between March 21, 1843 and March 21,1844.

[cheddar]

Doing away with the DFAY does not do away with the investigative or pre-advent judgment. There is still a cleansing that takes place at the end of the 2300 days and the focus of some of Daniel and much of Revelation is the heavenly sanctuary.

The term investigative is a misnomer because God already knows who will be saved and who will be lost, so any investigation will not be for his benefit but for the benefit of others. Daniel 7 is the best evidence to date for a pre-advent judgment but the verse doesn’t say a lot beyond the judgment was set and the books were opened.

I have always wondered why such a central pillar of the SDA church has so little biblical evidence to support it, aside from the ancient sanctuary service (day of atonement) and Dan. 7 and 8. Dan. 9 has always been applied to ancient Israel but maybe it’s the lost evidence for the investigative judgment (antitypical day of atonement).

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

- to finish the transgression

- to make an end of sins

- to make reconciliation for iniquity

- to bring in everlasting righteousness

- to seal up the vision and prophecy

- to anoint the most Holy

Who are God’s true people? Ancient Israel who rejected Jesus Christ and his righteousness or last days Christians who reflect Christ’s character and have his faith. I would say it’s the latter, so Dan. 9 applies to them. It even says to anoint the most Holy, a clear reference to the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary.

[Gustave]

None of my Jewish relatives believes this, and none of the Jewish websites that I've been a part of, buy that at all.

[miz3]

Who are God’s true people? Ancient Israel who rejected Jesus Christ and his righteousness or last days Christians who reflect Christ’s character and have his faith. I would say it’s the latter, so Dan. 9 applies to them. It even says to anoint the most Holy, a clear reference to the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary.

1. At the time of Daniel the people of God were still the Jewish Nation (Children of Israel). So anything directed at God's people would be directed at them. (Not SDA or any other group).

2. Christ was the the Lamb of God that brought the Atonement for everything. That includes the people, the Sanctuary, and everything. This is why the curtain was rent at the time of Christ's death among other things.

3. Thus, the Daniel prophecies relate only to the times of Daniel and the First Coming of Jesus Christ.

4. Since Christ has not even come the First time it would be foolish to even talk about the Second Coming before the First Coming was dealt with. Daniel had no interest in the Second Coming but instead was concerned about his people known as the Jews or Children of Israel.

5. Again, we have issues with the year/day Principle and its applications.

6. We also have gaps in why would the 2300 days(years) start at the same time as the 70weeks. Daniel does not support that both time periods start at the same time. Daniel certainly does not even intimate that the 2300 would start with the "decree".

[cheddar]

- If Dan. 7 and 8 are referring to something in the last days, why not 9?

- How did Jesus anoint the most Holy in heaven when he died on the cross on planet earth?

- The same hebrew word for most Holy in Dan. 9 is the same one used all throughtout the OT in reference to the most Holy place of the temple.

- Just because the 70 weeks fit with the DFAY doesn't make it biblical.

- And lastly the 70 weeks could be cut off at the end of the 2300 days so they end at the same time as the cleansing.

[miz3]

cheddar,

I am not defending the year/day Principle. In fact I think it does not apply at all except in those specific instances where God specifically stated it should apply.

I am making a general statement about the fact that Daniel was for the Jews and relates to Jesus first coming.

I do think that nothing in Daniel is pointing on down to our day and time.

You cannot "selectively" use the year/day Principle to suit yourself. I believe that SDA have indeed used the year/day Principle very selectively. This is my main point!

[ClubV12]

As far as the 2,300 year prophecy goes, I see the time frame as being 2,300 "atonements". The atonement was once a year, it would take 2,300 atonements to reach the end of the prophecy.

How strange it is that some professed SDA's struggle with understanding something so basic as the 2,300 year prophecy. Especially in light of the counsel we have on it from Ellen White. Of course, once you reject Ellen White, then there is no telling what kind of delusions one may fall prey to...

Thats why there are so many churchs with so many different interpretations, they are using the "bible and the bible only" and coming up short in understanding what the bible says. For lack of a prophet.

[miz3]

ClubV12,

Where in the Bible is the year/day Principle?

Is such a Principle even in the Bible?

Do SDA get the year/day Principle only from Ellen White?

[cheddar]

Club,

the verse says 2300 evenings and mornings referring to evening and morning sacrifice so days is fairly close but years is way off

also at the end of those days something is completed or finished not just beginning the way it's historically seen

and finally if Ellen White and the pioneers were so great we wouldn't be here today so quit making them into something they never claimed to be themselves

Miz,

I thought I made it clear, I dont believe in the DFAY at all

I think all the time periods are literal and they all fit into the last days

including the 2300 days and the 70 weeks

[miz3]

cheddar,

OK!

[miz3]

Again, where do we get the year/day Principle and is it really a Biblical Principle?

[cheddar]

It's not a valid principle.

But no one who has their salary paid by the church would ever say that

Because they would be unemployed the next day!

[ClubV12]

I'm not going to get drawn into a deep discussion of the 2,300 day for a year prophecy with all kinds of wild speculation about when it started and when it ended.

In the early 1800's, well before Ellen White, it was not only William Miller who understood this prophecy, there were many other bible scholars that also figured it out. It's actually rather simple.

Today, there are a HUGE number of competing theories and rampant speculation as to the time frame. Evenings and mornings, to some, suggest a "half day"! There are SO many different ways to do the calculations. But there is only ONE way that fits like a glove with KNOWN historical events, if you accept the start date and the end date and extend it out for 2,300 years. It points precisely to the date of the first coming, even the MAGI figured that out! The shepards in the field were not far off either, it's THAT simple! If you DON'T accept the start date, and therefore the end date, the discussion is not relevant to me and a large number of other SDA and non-SDA bible scholars. The matter was settled and put to bed over a 100 years ago in our modern time. A couple of thousand years ago by the "wise men" who came to see Jesus.

So, you guys bounce that ball back forth all you want, no one is going to score anyway.

[ClubV12]

Look up Daniel 8:14 in the original Hebrew, thats where I get the idea it's "atonment" days. I don't have access to an interlinear Hebrew book right now.

As I recall, the verse reads something like "...even and mornings holy adjudicated."

[miz3]

ClubV12,

I don't care if you want to discuss the 2300 whatever.

I want to know about the year/day Principle.

Where is this Principle fixed as a Principle in the Bible?

Are you able to tell me?

[ClubV12]

Genesis for one, but I suspect your question is rhetoric in nature as I'm sure you know where all the classic verses are to determine the "day/year" principle.

More to the point, the day/year principle "seems" to be questioned on two fronts here. One: how can we verify the day/year principle at all? Two: does it apply to Daniel 8:14 or is that a "stretch"?

Lets assume it does NOT apply to 8:14. In that case DOES Daniel 8:14 in the original Hebrew point to 2,300 years in some other way?

I think it does, if you interpret "2,300 evenings and mornings holy adjudicated" as meaning the atonement. So, 2,300 atonements later, we come to the end of the prophecy.

For me, this is MY current thinking on this issue, I could be in left field on it. Never the less, I don't question the 2,300 year begin and end date.

[BobRyan]

Almost every Christian denomination on the planet admits to the year-day principle in the book of Daniel in chapter 9.

SDAs are consistent in using it in 9, 8 and 7.

Many protestant reformers used that same year day principle in Dan 7 and in Rev 11, 12, 13.

in Christ,

Bob

[miz3]

Ok, they used it. Ok you believe that it applies to the 2300 whatever. I didn't ask who applies it to what or anything like that. I also do not care who says its a Principle and where they apply it.

That has nothing to do with what I asked!

I asked:

Where is this Principle fixed as a Principle in the Bible?

[ClubV12]

And I say you already know the answer to that question and it is rhetorical in nature!

Whether you agree with it or not is another question. I agree with it, no problem here, see Genesis for starters!

[miz3]

Where in Genesis is this year/day Principle?

[cheddar]

Look up Daniel 8:14 in the original Hebrew, thats where I get the idea it's "atonment" days. I don't have access to an interlinear Hebrew book right now.

As I recall, the verse reads something like "...even and mornings holy adjudicated."

I have the interlinear , Strongs, Thayer's greek lexicon and Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew lexicon so I can get a good look at each word.

There are two words for days in 2300 days -

the first one is 'ereb' which means: even, evening or night

then second is 'boqer' which means: morning, morrow or day

so evenings and mornings is pretty accurate.

I've actually spent a lot of time looking for the start date for the 2300 days because there's really nothing obvious listed in Dan. 8 The closest thing I've found is the Ram which is identified as the 'kings of Media and Persia'.

Understanding who these beasts are is just as important as understanding the time periods. If we go over to Dan. 10 the angel Gabriel is in a battle with the 'prince of persia' for 21 days and the battle is so bad that Michael has to come and help him.

Historically the beasts have always been seen as ancient kingdoms but I think that they represent Satan's angels. Satan is referred to as the 'king of Babylon' in Isa. 14 and the 'prince of Tyrus' in Eze. 28 so it's not a far stretch for some of his angels to have names like the 'price of persia'.

When we see two angels coming into the atmosphere and thru the clouds that will be day 1 of the 2300 days. That probably sounds really crazy. LOL

[BobRyan]

Hmm - how is it that practically every Christian denomination on the planet gets the day for year in Dan 9?

Well there is always the book of Numbers where the spies are in the land for 40 days and then Israel is punished - sent the desert for 40 years and God said he is giving them a day for a year.

Then in the book of ezekiel also uses the same model.

The standard texts used are

Numbers 14:34 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years….after the number of the days in which you searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year.

Ezekiel 4:6

"And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year."