We Thought Our Lord Should Come....

[ClubV12]

"We tend to trust too easily some of those who make bold claims about visions from God."

Hmmm, coded message there, not sure if it's directed at the Lords messenger or just those who believe in her. Either way, it sounds rather constipated. :)

[miz3]

All religions are man-made.

The Kingdom of God is not a religion, but more like a business arrangement, or a contract for a job. If we agree to conduct ourselves as respectful, responsible, and obedient members of his Kingdom by carrying out the tasks he assigns us to do that will benefit mankind, then, in the next life, we will receive a great reward, and a job.

I disagree. You may not believe that the Bible is the Word of God but I do.

1. The Word of God states that God made the Truth and the truth is a religion.

2. Are there man-made religions? YES! Of course.

3. As Jesus Christ told Pilot His Kingdom (Religion) is not like the kingdoms and religions of this world. God's Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom made up of God and those who belong to Jesus Christ's finished work of Justification.

4. Does God use physical entities (kingdoms, religions, countries, other physical human entities, etc.)? YES!

5. Some examples:

a. Abraham

b. The Children of Israel

c. Nebuchadnezzer

d. The Disciples

e. The Early Church (see Acts and the Work of the Holy Spirit)

This is not an exhaustive list.

6. Some examples I believe came after the Biblical Record.

a. The Protestant Reformation

b. The United States of America

c. The Seventh Day Adventist Church (like Ancient Israel they could forfeit their status)!

This also is not an exhaustive list.

7. If a human entity is not apart of those on lists five and six does not mean they are not part of God's Religion (remember this is not a Physical Religion but it does have Physical parts. The Physical parts may or may not belong to the Spiritual.

8. Some may not even realize they belong to God's Religion and there may be those who think they belong who really in God's eyes do not belong to His Religion.

9. The Physical Entities listed in numbers five and six, although used by God and stated by God to be His vehicles to advance the Spiritual Religion, may or may not always reflect the Truth as the Spiritual Religion expects and exists as.

10. This is why God and God alone will be the only Judge of who does and who does not eventually belong to Him.

[cheddar]

I think AlienS was just making a comparison but I'll let him answer.

So why does the Great Controvery tell us more about last day events than the Bible?

When we read thru the GC, Ellen White goes into a lot of detail about what will happen - i.e.

1) Satan's deceptions

2) Sabbath vs. Sunday

3) cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary

4) the close of human probation

and that's just to name a few - Why don't we see these in Bible?

I think they are in Bible, they've just been covered up by Jewish age and middle ages applications.

The OLD Jews were under the OLD covenant and lived in OLD Jerusalem

The NEW Jews are under the NEW covenant and will live in the NEW Jerusalem

[ClubV12]

Jesus told the apsotles only as much as they could understand at the time. The last day events were not relevant to their time. They are to us, which is why we are NOW receiving the information from the same source as the bible, Jesus.

Much of the detail we have from Ellen White is in fact not in the bible, never will be found in the bible. I don't have a problem with that.

New Jerusalem won't happen for a thousand years AFTER the 2nd coming.

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

The Kingdom of God does not require anything more than believing on Jesus Christ who died that you might be saved. NOTHING else is needed, it is a gift, no strings, no contract, no job required.

Long ago, the LORD gave us the Rules of Life that are to guide every member of the Kingdom of the Stars, that is, the Kingdom of God. These simple guidelines are like a Code of Ethics that most of us must follow in the workplace. These Rules of Conduct are for those who want to join God’s Kingdom and work for him. Following them will enable humans to get along, forever, by surrendering selfishness and never hurting anyone, including themselves. These rules are for us to internalize for our own use, not to force upon others our own particular ideas or interpretations. If everyone today voluntarily followed these Rules of Life, this world could be transformed into a pleasant place of peace and safety, a place where there would be no men with knives and guns and bombs who wanted to harm or kill people.

Code of Ethics for the Kingdom of God:

Love, honor, and obey God at all times, under all circumstances

Do no harm to yourself, or others

Practice self-sacrifice for the good of others

Conduct yourselves as servants of God, and servants of all mankind

I've been present when my neighbors grabbed the microphone at church, the woman telling everyone in the congregation how much she loved Jesus. They're the people who, after their dog came onto our deck and attacked my little dog, breaking its rear leg, said nothing, and did nothing, to relieve its suffering.

Because at the time I had no money and four children at home, I called an orthopedic surgeon friend and asked him for advice on how to splint the poor dog's leg. I never did get it set right, so for the rest of its short life, it was mainly a three-legged dog. Eight months after the first attack, the neighbor’s dog once again attacked, then killed, my little Blackie, ripping her guts out in our front yard.

They did offer to replace my dog, but their pit bull still ran loose into our yard.

More recently, I was down at their place doing some measurements for them when their chow sunk its teeth into my leg. I called Animal Regulation to report the bite, but a few days later, my neighbor's wife called, not to apologize for the injury their dog inflicted on me, but to ask why I reported the dog bite to the authorities. They were quite upset that I didn't talk to them first.

So, profession, without respecting others, is completely worthless. If all we have to do is say the magic words, "I love Jesus," to get into the Kingdom, then treat our neighbors like they're dog poop, then I don't think that I want to be a part of that miserable Kingdom.

[Aliensanctuary]

Our religion should not consist of a lengthy list of man-made rules, or be mainly composed of ceremonies, sermons, and church attendance, but rather, it should be more like a network of positive relationships. We can make this world a better place, not by forcing our man-made religions or religious rules on others, but by sharing our kindness and helpfulness with others, brightening their little corner of this dark world as we journey together to the Land of God.

[miz3]

Aliensanctuary,

Your neighbors actions are despicable! Christians should know better, but they don't all know better. They too are growing in Christ. However, that does not excuse their evil behavior.

Hypocrisy is always a present danger within Christianity and that includes the SDA Church!

You did right to report them and alert the authorities that they are not being responsible for their dog. It is not the dog's fault, it is the owners fault that they have an undisciplined dog. I would keep reporting them every time the dog violated your property.

It may not be practical but if it is practical you might also try and speak with your neighbor and see if you can come to an amicable agreement.

[Gail]

Pit Bull, then a Chow? Two breeds that are noted for their orneriness. What is it about the neighbours that attracts them to those particular breeds? Gotta wonder about that!

[phkrause]

Pkrause, which "Jewish websites" did you visit that didn't attribute Hanukkah's celebration...

...To be in memory of the Temples vindication subsequent to the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes?

...And what kind of "Jews" ( their branch of Judaism ) are your relatives?

First I'm not saying that the Jews don't celebrate Chanukah, But this is the reason they celebrate: Since the golden Menorah had been stolen by the Syrians, the Maccabees now made one of cheaper metal. When they wanted to light it, they found only a small cruse of pure olive oil bearing the seal of the High Priest Yochanan. It was sufficient to light only for one day. By a miracle of G-d, it continued to burn for eight days, till new oil was made available. That miracle proved that G-d had again taken His people under His protection. In memory of this, our sages appointed these eight days for annual thanksgiving and for lighting candles. and the bolded type is the specific reason.

Second, I'm not form a "what kind of Jews" family. My family is a direct desendent of Abraham, period. My father spent 5 years in a concentration camp, not because he was "what kind of Jew" but because a Jew. PERIOD. And besides Jews are called Jews today because most if not all are descendants from Judah. They were the only ones left after Israel had been pretty much annililated by the Assyrians and Judah, Benjimen, and the half tribe of Manassah (Ibelieve) were brought to Babylon and pretty much to two tribes of benjimen and mannassah were pretty much intergrated with Judah so now they are know as Jews. Now that doesn't mean that the other tribes don't exist but its just to hard to figure out who's who. That's about as accurate as I can be without going and checking the history, but I don't think I need to go through all that, its close enough. No need for a history lesson.

[Aliensanctuary]

Oh, thanks. Their chow finally died and they got a much friendlier dog. I have suffered in silence, or left the sanctuary, when we accidentally attended the same church and they once again grabbed the microphone, speaking wonderful things about Jesus and Adventism...

Unfortunately, religion-gone-bad can really mess people up. I've been there, too. People don't need religion so much...they just need to know God and respect others. During the Last Days, we may be surprised at who joins the camp of the LORD, expecting almost certain death, and who joins the Kingdom of Lies. The latter's religion cannot help them because it was nothing.

True worship is not the stand-up/sit-down/lay-down service of rituals, recitations, customs, and practices we are accustomed to participating in when we attend churches or other places of worship, but is supposed to be a demonstration of our subservience to, and willing submission to, God. True worship is what we do to acknowledge the LORD's ownership of ourselves when we're all alone. Corporate worship is more like a hypocrisy contest to see who can fool the most people.

Some denominations may think that the 144K will be composed of their members, even if they don't have a drop of Abraham's blood. The LORD has the DNA records of everyone on the planet, and can even count the number of hair follicles coded therein. It will be a simple matter for him to figure out who belongs to what tribe of Israel so the 144K can come together to restore the Kingdom.

[Guest]

So, profession, without respecting others, is completely worthless. If all we have to do is say the magic words, "I love Jesus," to get into the Kingdom, then treat our neighbors like they're dog poop, then I don't think that I want to be a part of that miserable Kingdom.

I see where you're coming from. But, you know from reading your Bible that those kinds of people are not going to be what the number in heaven is made up of. No matter what they profess.

God's children will not treat people like dog poop. And they really do love Jesus.

[ClubV12]

I got two dogs, it's a very sad report on many levels.

"...to figure out who belongs to what tribe of Israel so the 144K can come together to restore the Kingdom."

Wait,,, what? Must be some idea of the 144K I've not come across yet. Of course my limited understanding on the subject is based on Ellen White's writings. This idea of the 144K being composed of members of the Jewish nation? Doesn't seem to fit. I'm finding more and more religious concepts and ideas that don't fit, as far as that goes. Whew, they seem to be endless.

[cheddar]

Jesus told the apsotles only as much as they could understand at the time. The last day events were not relevant to their time. They are to us, which is why we are NOW receiving the information from the same source as the bible, Jesus.

Much of the detail we have from Ellen White is in fact not in the bible, never will be found in the bible. I don't have a problem with that.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Pkrause, which "Jewish websites" did you visit that didn't attribute Hanukkah's celebration...

...To be in memory of the Temples vindication subsequent to the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes?

...And what kind of "Jews" ( their branch of Judaism ) are your relatives?

First I'm not saying that the Jews don't celebrate Chanukah, But this is the reason they celebrate: Since the golden Menorah had been stolen by the Syrians, the Maccabees now made one of cheaper metal. When they wanted to light it, they found only a small cruse of pure olive oil bearing the seal of the High Priest Yochanan. It was sufficient to light only for one day. By a miracle of G-d, it continued to burn for eight days, till new oil was made available. That miracle proved that G-d had again taken His people under His protection. In memory of this, our sages appointed these eight days for annual thanksgiving and for lighting candles. and the bolded type is the specific reason.

Second, I'm not form a "what kind of Jews" family. My family is a direct desendent of Abraham, period. My father spent 5 years in a concentration camp, not because he was "what kind of Jew" but because a Jew. PERIOD. And besides Jews are called Jews today because most if not all are descendants from Judah. They were the only ones left after Israel had been pretty much annililated by the Assyrians and Judah, Benjimen, and the half tribe of Manassah (Ibelieve) were brought to Babylon and pretty much to two tribes of benjimen and mannassah were pretty much intergrated with Judah so now they are know as Jews. Now that doesn't mean that the other tribes don't exist but its just to hard to figure out who's who. That's about as accurate as I can be without going and checking the history, but I don't think I need to go through all that, its close enough. No need for a history lesson.

And, for "what" reason would the Jews have needed to light pure oil?

...I live around many Jews and work with many Jews.

...I have talked to Rabbi's and I can assure you that I know of NO Jews.

...Who would suggest that the Feast of the Dedication wasn't for cleansing it from the Little Horn.

You realize that the whole "OIL" thing was because they were rededicating THE TEMPLE....

...Subsequent to it being defiled by A.E. don't you?

There are MANY branches of Judaism, deal with it and answer the question...

...Or perhaps you would prefer I start crafting questions to extract the information.

[ClubV12]

"I do have a problem with this. If probation is going to close for the whole world, I want to see it in the Bible."

Of course, I would as well. But that is kind of fundamental around here, lot's of people want to see "it", or that "thing" in the bible. If they don't see it in the bible, they reject it. I'm OK with that, let every man be convinced in his own heart. Don't "go off" on her or anybody else because you can't see it in the bible; Don't believe it, if that is your position, and move on.

The fact is some things Ellen White details are not found in the bible. In some cases, they never will be. In other cases they may come forth as "new light", which most often is "old light" with new understanding.

She presents many details of past, present and future events that are simply not in the bible and never will come forth from the bible. She says things "science" does not agree with. I'm OK with all of that, because I truly believe she is a prophet. I believe the VAST MAJORITY of her writings are divinely inspired and/or revealed. She was "shown", she was "told", she had a "vision", she had a "dream", something of that nature.

A common phrase we here hear is: She never claimed to be infallible. Another is, "that was her opinion". In either case, that is actualy VERY RARE considering the amount of writing she did.

I bet Paul never claimed to be infallible either! Paul was not always directly inspired as to someone's or some churchs condition. He consulted with people who had present knowledge of the these things, he consulted with the brothers and sisters of his time, just as Ellen White did. On occasion, she, and you can bet Paul also did, receive information from others that was not 100% accurate. The only thing we know about Paul and his life, is what made it into the cannon record! There is much more we don't know! We know every little detail about Ellen White, in contrast, right down to what she had for breakfast! :)

[miz3]

So its just ClubV12's enthusiasm because of being a new convert? Is this normal behavior?

Wow?

[cheddar]

"I do have a problem with this. If probation is going to close for the whole world, I want to see it in the Bible."

Of course, I would as well. But that is kind of fundamental around here, lot's of people want to see "it", or that "thing" in the bible. If they don't see it in the bible, they reject it. I'm OK with that, let every man be convinced in his own heart. Don't "go off" on her or anybody else because you can't see it in the bible; Don't believe it, if that is your position, and move on.

The fact is some things Ellen White details are not found in the bible. In some cases, they never will be. In other cases they may come forth as "new light", which most often is "old light" with new understanding.

She presents many details of past, present and future events that are simply not in the bible and never will come forth from the bible. She says things "science" does not agree with. I'm OK with all of that, because I truly believe she is a prophet. I believe the VAST MAJORITY of her writings are divinely inspired and/or revealed. She was "shown", she was "told", she had a "vision", she had a "dream", something of that nature.

A common phrase we here hear is: She never claimed to be infallible. Another is, "that was her opinion". In either case, that is actualy VERY RARE considering the amount of writing she did.

I bet Paul never claimed to be infallible either! Paul was not always directly inspired as to someone's or some churchs condition. He consulted with people who had present knowledge of the these things, he consulted with the brothers and sisters of his time, just as Ellen White did. On occasion, she, and you can bet Paul also did, receive information from others that was not 100% accurate. The only thing we know about Paul and his life, is what made it into the cannon record! There is much more we don't know! We know every little detail about Ellen White, in contrast, right down to what she had for breakfast!

I agree with a lot more of what Ellen White said than you think I do.

There's nothing wrong with asking questions - when we stop wanting to learn, then we are definitely part of Laodicea.

I don't agree with Paul on everything either. Paul said that agape was the highest thing, but I think faith is. We can't even have agape without faith. One of those chicken before the egg stories.

Your a young Christian and I've been where your at so just study the SOP and the bible and pray that the Holy Spirit will show you the truth.

[miz3]

ClubV12 believes they are an Authority on the Truth already!

[miz3]

ClubV12,

It is persons like you that do more harm to Ellen White and her mission than all the devils of hell can do with their lies and hatred.

I have seen this happen over and over again and it is a cryin' shame because with such friends Ellen White has no need of any enemies.

She was a good woman and was God's servant but the SDA Church and enthusiasts like you that have done the most damage to her and her work.

I do feel sorry for the SDA Church, for Ellen White and for you, ClubV12.

Yes I feel sorry for you because you do not know the great sorrow you will bring on yourself and the great damage you do to the SDA Church and to Ellen White.

Its just sad!

[ClubV12]

What truth are you suggesting I should be seeing Cheddar, that you think I'm not? You stated you wanted to "see it in the bible", I responded, not just for you, but for all those who ask that very question.

That comment, or question, is typical around here. It needs an answer beyond cheddar. It needs to be addressed directly. So people like miz3, who often asks that question, might have an answer. It is a common question from the many who form, collectively, the "bible and the bible only" group of believers that frequent this forum.

Don't underestimate my newness to THIS faith as an indicater of my biblical knowledge. I am well versed, willing and able to go head to head with anyone on this forum when it comes to doctrine, definition and debate on biblical subjects. In fact, I relish the challenge!

Now, since miz3 has once again stuck his foot in his mouth, I challenge the "old died in the wool knows everything and needs nothing" man to a critique on my comments on the inspiration of Ellen White and how inspiration works in general. If he's not to tired and intimidated by a "newbie" to take the challenge, he might need a nap first, "old man" that he is.

You use whatever source you want, the bible and the bible only, miz3, or more. I will use whatever source I want, the bible, Ellen White and the SDA commentary, perhaps a interlinear Hebrew or Greek translation as well, if needed.

[cheddar]

Miz and I both want to see evidence of the DFAY principle and have not received anything.

If the DFAY is a valid principle then lets apply it to creation week. God didn't create the world in six days it was really six years!

Thats the same logic people use to apply it to Dan. and Rev.

[miz3]

Well spoken chedder!

Your turn ClubV12.

Tell us about the "year/day" Principle Mr. versed in the Scripture.

[ClubV12]

It's a red herring question as you BOTH already know the answer as provided in the bible and reject that as a "proof". So, on that issue, based on the bible alone, we have a stale mate. We cannot agree and likely never will, on the interpretation and application of that DFAY principle as it applies to the 2,300 year prophecy in Daniel.

But wait, theres more! We DO have Ellen White's counsel that verifies the DFAY principle AND applies it to Daniel. She also upholds William Millers excellent work on the 2,300 prophecy. If you reject BOTH of those sources as a "proof", we remain at an impasse.

What else you got, for this "newbie"?

[ClubV12]

Looks like a "tag team" is shaping up, miz3/cheddar. I'd like to invite BobRyan, Gail, Sky, John317 or other biblical scholars to weigh in if they like. This could be fun! Shall we begin a new thread or continue on this one?

As you know miz3, I am working on a new theory that may indicate Daniel 8:14 in the original Hebrew could be interpreted as "2,300 atonements". Which would render the DFAY principle as an additional, but not the singular proof. I have not yet completed my research on that specific issue at this time, it's a work in progress.

[cheddar]

I'm gonna come up with something good, just give me a minute...