We Thought Our Lord Should Come....

[BobRyan]

Matt 24:15 is not talking about the sanctuary itself -- the sanctuary is never mentioned.

Luke 21:20 is the parallel to this and states clearly that it is "Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

The reason the area outside of Jerusalem is called "the Holy Place" by the Jews is due to the statement of Jeremiah in Jer 31 -

Jeremiah 31

38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.

39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.

40 ""And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.''

Quote:

Matthew Henry(Luke 21:20), when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies. Jerusalem was the holy city, Canaan the holy land, the Mount Moriah, which lay about Jerusalem, for its nearness to the temple was, they thought in a particular manner holy ground; on the country lying round about Jerusalem the Roman army was encamped, that was the abomination that made desolate. The land of an enemy is said to be the land which thou abhorrest (Isaiah 7:16); so an enemy's army to a weak but wilful people may well be called the abomination. Now this is said to be spoken of by Daniel, the prophet, who spoke more plainly of the Messiah and his kingdom than any of the Old-Testament prophets did. He speaks of an abomination making desolate, ... we have in the message that the angel brought him (Daniel 9:27), of what should come at the end of seventy weeks...; for the overspreading of abominations, or, as the margin reads it, with the abominable armies

Adam Clarke – Matt 24:15

The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mark 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

James Burton CoffmanMatt 24 Verses 15, 16, 17

When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: let him that is on the housetop not go down to take out the things that are in his house.

The abomination of desolation is usually held to mean the encirclement of the Holy City by the Roman armies prior to its destruction. That the Christian might have the opportunity to flee after such a deployment as that might have appeared impossible, due to the encircling armies; but the army of Titus, commanded by Cestius Gallus, for some inexplicable reason, lifted the siege, providing the Christians a chance to escape. In Book II of his Wars, section 24, Josephus said, "For Cestius removed his army, and having received no loss, very unadvisedly departed from the city." F8

Nothing there about the Armies of Rome first defiling the sanctuary and "then" allowing the Jews to leave Jerusalem.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

This is the reason I never talk about prophecy because of Adventists like you. Most only have a basic understanding so they're not even going to know what I'm talking about and the ones who do, well they're going to be Ellen White's disciples just like you, Bob Ryan.

No need to snipe Cheddar - I was simply giving you the benefit of the doubt - and the "out" of taking the non-SDA POV and not having to be held accountable to any message God gave Seventh-day Adventist through the ministry of Ellen White.

A comment was made that you were fulfilling a prediction from the 1800's about some SDAs in the future coming from inside the denomination, undermining our doctrines and attacking the ministry God gave Ellen White. However in the case that you are actually non-SDA that prediction and warning would not apply to you. As such - you are certainly expected to have views of the Bible and a rejection of Ellen White that differs with Seventh-day Adventists.

It was a point in your favor --

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

My apologies to Cheddar, whose statement I found to be representative of many who DO claim to be a Seventh-day Adventist around here!

Club - I am simply giving Cheddar the benefit of the doubt on that point... I am still not 100% what Cheddar is claiming in that regard but given that it is most often a view opposed to the SDA doctrines - I simply assume that Cheddar is non-SDA - given the benefit of the doubt.

in Christ,

Bob

[cheddar]

No need to snipe Cheddar - I was simply giving you the benefit of the doubt - and the "out" of taking the non-SDA POV and not having to be held accountable to any message God gave Seventh-day Adventist through the ministry of Ellen White.

A comment was made that you were fulfilling a prediction from the 1800's about some SDAs in the future coming from inside the denomination, undermining our doctrines and attacking the ministry God gave Ellen White. However in the case that you are actually non-SDA that prediction and warning would not apply to you. As such - you are certainly expected to have views of the Bible and a rejection of Ellen White that differs with Seventh-day Adventists.

It was a point in your favor --

in Christ,

Bob

So because I disagree with Ellen White on one chapter of the Desire of Ages, then that means that I reject her completely.

That's your logic not mine.

I'm going to tell you what I really believe-

I believe that Jesus gave Ellen White many visions about the last days, but instead of seeing those visions as last day events she chose to apply her visions to what happened in 1844. That may have been a big deal to her, but it's nothing more than a footnote today.

She said that all of the 3 angel's messages were given in the time leading up to 1844. Are you kidding me. The gospel didn't go to all the world and there was no mark of the beast. The church didn't even receive the true gospel until 1888. God gave her visions of last day events and she applied everything to 1844.

[BobRyan]

Ellen White states clearly that the 2nd Angel's message was not fulfilled in the 1800's and that it is still future as is the 3rd angel's message and the Rev 18 Angel. See GC 389

Her statement is that the beginning of those messages sounded in the 1800's but that their full Bible fulfillment is yet future.

Quote:

The second angel's message of Revelation 14 was first preached in the summer of 1844, and it then had a more direct application to the churches of the United States, where the warning of the judgment had been most widely proclaimed and most generally rejected, and where the declension in the churches had been most rapid.

But the message of the second angel did not reach its complete fulfillment in 1844. The churches then experienced a moral fall, in consequence of their refusal of the light of the advent message; but that fall was not complete. As they have continued to reject the special truths for this time they have fallen lower and lower. Not yet, however, can it be said that "Babylon is fallen,... because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." She has not yet made all nations do this. The spirit of world conforming and indifference to the testing truths for our time exists and has been gaining ground in churches of the Protestant faith in all the countries of Christendom; and these churches are included in the solemn and terrible denunciation of the second angel. But the work of apostasy has not yet reached its culmination. {GC 389.2}

The Bible declares that before the coming of the Lord, Satan will work "with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness;" and they that "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved," will be left to receive "strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11. Not until this condition shall be reached, and the union of the church with the world shall be fully accomplished throughout Christendom, will the fall of Babylon be complete. The change is a progressive one, and the perfect fulfillment of Revelation 14:8 is yet future. {GC 389.3}

I have a thread on the issues that bring about the NSL that deals with that last paragraph above.

But as for the 2nd Angel's message - I guess that means you can ease up on condemning her and lashing out at SDAs that accept her ministry as being valid.

in Christ,

Bob

[Aliensanctuary]

Our Founding Mothers and Fathers looked at Last Days prophecies wearing their 1844 sunglasses, and as a result, were quite nearsighted as they studied the scriptures. I'm not bashing EGW, just realizing that she and her crew grasped at local events and projected them as signs of the imminent End of the World.

Lisbon earthquake, for example, a heavily overcast day, an annual meteor shower...perhaps a little exaggeration entered into her descriptions. These events are obviously unrelated to the cataclysmic, worldwide destruction we can expect on the Day of the LORD. Unless one has scrapped the OT prophets, one should search for all of the references to the Day of the LORD, and That Day. These prophecies will all come true, no matter who does or doesn't believe them.

Remember Zech 14:

Quote:

The eschatological battle; the splendor of Jerusalem

1. Look, the Day of Yahweh is coming, when the spoils taken from you will be shared out among you.

2. For I shall gather all the nations to Jerusalem for battle. The city will be taken, the houses plundered, the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be ejected from the city.

3. Then Yahweh will sally out and fight those nations as once he fought on the day of battle.

4. When that day comes, his feet will rest on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley; half the Mount will recede northwards, the other half southwards.

5. The valley between the hills will be filled in, yes, it will be blocked as far as Jasol, it will be filled in as it was by the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. And Yahweh my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

6. That Day, there will be no light, but only cold and frost.

7. And it will be one continuous day, Yahweh knows, there will be no more day and night, and it will remain light right into the time of evening.

8. When that Day comes, living waters will issue from Jerusalem, half towards the eastern sea, half towards the western sea; they will flow summer and winter.

9. Then Yahweh will become king of the whole world. When that Day comes, Yahweh will be the one and only and his name the one name.

10. The entire country will be transformed into plain, from Geba to Rimmon in the Negeb, but Jerusalem will stand high in her place and be full of people from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the earlier gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine-presses.

11. People will make their homes there. The curse of destruction will be lifted; Jerusalem will be safe to live in.

It's too bad our Founding Fathers erred, but we can search the scriptures ourselves with open minds, without having to believe every single jot and tittle that came from the pen of our prolific Founding Mother. If anyone has a mind, let him think for himself instead of letting someone else do that by regurgitating SOP quotes.

The Three Angel's Messages will be given to the entire world, supported by the Two Witnesses, as a warning prior to the Great Judgment Day. Unless I'm mistaken, this will take place after the resurrection, likely during the murderous reign of the Fourth Beast.

It may be possible, here in the Shadowlands, that there are shadowy, partial fulfillments of prophecy that direct us to the real fulfillments during the Last Days and the End of the Age, just as baptism today points us to the real wash-up in the River of Life.

[cheddar]

Our Founding Mothers and Fathers looked at Last Days prophecies wearing their 1844 sunglasses, and as a result, were quite nearsighted as they studied the scriptures. I'm not bashing EGW, just realizing that she and her crew grasped at local events and projected them as signs of the imminent End of the World.

Lisbon earthquake, for example, a heavily overcast day, an annual meteor shower...perhaps a little exaggeration entered into her descriptions. These events are obviously unrelated to the cataclysmic, worldwide destruction we can expect on the Day of the LORD. Unless one has scrapped the OT prophets, one should search for all of the references to the Day of the LORD, and That Day. These prophecies will all come true, no matter who does or doesn't believe them.

Remember Zech 14:

Quote:

The eschatological battle; the splendor of Jerusalem

1. Look, the Day of Yahweh is coming, when the spoils taken from you will be shared out among you.

2. For I shall gather all the nations to Jerusalem for battle. The city will be taken, the houses plundered, the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be ejected from the city.

3. Then Yahweh will sally out and fight those nations as once he fought on the day of battle.

4. When that day comes, his feet will rest on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley; half the Mount will recede northwards, the other half southwards.

5. The valley between the hills will be filled in, yes, it will be blocked as far as Jasol, it will be filled in as it was by the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. And Yahweh my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

6. That Day, there will be no light, but only cold and frost.

7. And it will be one continuous day, Yahweh knows, there will be no more day and night, and it will remain light right into the time of evening.

8. When that Day comes, living waters will issue from Jerusalem, half towards the eastern sea, half towards the western sea; they will flow summer and winter.

9. Then Yahweh will become king of the whole world. When that Day comes, Yahweh will be the one and only and his name the one name.

10. The entire country will be transformed into plain, from Geba to Rimmon in the Negeb, but Jerusalem will stand high in her place and be full of people from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the earlier gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine-presses.

11. People will make their homes there. The curse of destruction will be lifted; Jerusalem will be safe to live in.

It's too bad our Founding Fathers erred, but we can search the scriptures ourselves with open minds, without having to believe every single jot and tittle that came from the pen of our prolific Founding Mother. If anyone has a mind, let him think for himself instead of letting someone else do that by regurgitating quotes.

The Three Angel's Messages will be given to the entire world, supported by the Two Witnesses, as a warning prior to the Great Judgment Day. Unless I'm mistaken, this will take place after the resurrection, likely during the murderous reign of the Fourth Beast.

It may be possible, here in the Shadowlands, that there are shadowy, partial fulfillments of prophecy that direct us to the real fulfillments during the Last Days and the End of the Age, just as baptism today points us to the real wash-up in the River of Life.

Well spoken AlienS, I like your take on the OT prophets.

[ClubV12]

"...she and her crew grasped at local events and projected them as signs of the imminent End of the World."

It has always been Gods plan that people of all ages look forward to coming of Christ. The 1st time as well as the Second. And it will always be that way, until He comes as a thief in the night.

San Fran earthquake? Check. And why not? Many folks died, for them, the day of reckoning DID come.

WW 1? There had to be little doubt the Lords coming was soon, very soon.

WW 2? Same, same.

Great Depression? Wait, was that in the '30's or is that happening today? I lost track. But same, same.

Thus, it has always been His plan and will remain that way. Should we then conclude that all these things have happened before, so "no worries"? NEVER!!

The Lords coming IS soon, even at the door. For any of us, the day of reckoning could be tonight, or not. No man knows the day or the hour of His actual return, but we are continually warned to be ready, and for good reason.

Truth is progressive, the early SDA founders grew in their knowledge of the Lord. They didn't "err" as much as they slowly learned and adjusted course. As did Ellen White, slowly, over decades. Much of what was revealed to her she did not understand at the time. But the memory was brought back clear as a bell when the circumstances unfolded and it was time to deliver the message in clairity.

[ClubV12]

"...without having to believe every single jot and tittle that came from the pen of our prolific Founding Mother."

As for myself, I'll believe FIRST, look at the circumstances, compare Testimony to Testimony, then I might, maybe, just might, consider her counsel "personal opinion". Even then, I will NOT readily dismiss her counsel. Paul also offered his "personal opinion" on matters, I don't take his counsel lightly either!

Fact is, very little, VERY little, of what she wrote is her personal opinion. We hear that a lot, but it's a statement that is WAY over blown and misleading.

In my opinion, I have found only a few instances of her "personal opinion" out of her vast writings.

[cheddar]

Someone please change the channel...

[miz3]

Sorry cheddar, wrong era, we are back in days of vinyl records and the needle is stuck!

Broken record!

[BobRyan]

Our Founding Mothers and Fathers looked at Last Days prophecies wearing their 1844 sunglasses, and as a result, were quite nearsighted as they studied the scriptures. I'm not bashing EGW, just realizing that she and her crew grasped at local events and projected them as signs of the imminent End of the World.

Lisbon earthquake, for example, a heavily overcast day, an annual meteor shower...perhaps a little exaggeration entered into her descriptions. These events are obviously unrelated to the cataclysmic, worldwide destruction we can expect on the Day of the LORD.

The stars falling, the dark day, the great earthquake from the context of one living in the 1840's were much more than "William Miller's preferred way to look at disasters" - they were recorded in history, and News accounts such that still today the "Dark Day" and the Earthquake in Lisbon are historic events along with the massive meteor shower that started the modern science devoted to studying those events.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

"...without having to believe every single jot and tittle that came from the pen of our prolific Founding Mother."

As for myself, I'll believe FIRST, look at the circumstances, compare Testimony to Testimony, then I might, maybe, just might, consider her counsel "personal opinion". Even then, I will NOT readily dismiss her counsel. Paul also offered his "personal opinion" on matters, I don't take his counsel lightly either!

Fact is, very little, VERY little, of what she wrote is her personal opinion. We hear that a lot, but it's a statement that is WAY over blown and misleading.

In my opinion, I have found only a few instances of her "personal opinion" out of her vast writings.

Credit where Credit is due. You were right about this point in your earlier statement to Cheddar. I was at the time trying to give the benefit of the doubt - but I was apparently mistaken.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

"I think she needs to go back to Bible 101."

I find it very tiring to see the Lords messenger consistenly disparaged around here. It increases my resolve to hold the banner of truth a little higher, a little longer.

"The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God... It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction." (LDE 177, 178)

As we saw that even well-known non-SDA Bible scholars admit to Ellen White's point about the abomination of desolation applying to the Roman armies that surrounded the city - and then they LEFT allowing the Christians to flee. Once again Ellen White's writing is confirmed even by non-SDA scholarship!

And your point above is well taken. Thank you for sharing that. Some people take a pick-and-choose approach to the Bible and to the prophetic ministry of Ellen White and the result is a Bible of their own making and an Ellen White ministry of their own making.

As you have pointed out - we are not saying that everything Ellen White said at the dinner table is inspired of God - but reason should let us admit to the published statements in her day - made by her for that very purpose... as something she considered to be included in her prophetic ministry.

in Christ,

Bob

[cheddar]

As we saw that even well-known non-SDA Bible scholars admit to Ellen White's point about the abomination of desolation applying to the Roman armies that surrounded the city - and then they LEFT allowing the Christians to flee. Once again Ellen White's writing is confirmed even by non-SDA scholarship!

And your point above is well taken. Thank you for sharing that. Some people take a pick-and-choose approach to the Bible and to the prophetic ministry of Ellen White and the result is a Bible of their own making and an Ellen White ministry of their own making.

As you have pointed out - we are not saying that everything Ellen White said at the dinner table is inspired of God - but reason should let us admit to the published statements in her day - made by her for that very purpose... as something she considered to be included in her prophetic ministry.

in Christ,

Bob

Where's my answer for Matt 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Riddle me this one Batman.

[skyblue888]

Batman!!!

[karl]

Where's my answer for Matt 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Riddle me this one Batman.

"This" generation appears to speak of the generation existing at the end time Christ is referring to (when you see these things happening.) And then the interpretation of "generation" requires some study. There are at least three ways in which the word "generation" is used in scripture. There is the literal family generation, the family generation of evil, and the family generation of Christ. Three very distinct applications of this word to choose from in interpreting this statement.

[miz3]

So Christ didn't give us straight answer?

[ClubV12]

Lots of people see the words of Christ in many different ways. It sounds rather rude and bullish to put it in such blunt terms as "didn't give us a straight answer", but that is essentially correct. Hence, the need to understand the context and definitions as Kevin pointed out. The SDA commentary may help along with other consultants generally considered to be superb bible students, like EGW.

[miz3]

So Jesus Christ was evasive and not totally honest with us?

Thus, we need lesser intellects which are clouded with sin to tell us what Jesus Christ actually meant?

Now that is twisted!

The Jews of Christ's day thought the same thing about their traditions and their theology rather the straight up Word of God. Christ corrected them in this regard on a number of occasions (see the Gospels you can read them yourself and find out what I mean).

[Aliensanctuary]

Strong's Definition of generation:

Romanized genea

Pronounced ghen-eh-ah'

from (a presumed derivative of) GSN1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):

KJV--age, generation, nation, time.

[ClubV12]

Lesser intellects, an interesting statement...

Lesser intellects than who, miz3? There are many counselors of superior intellect than either of us. Education alone does not determine the power of the intellect. For instance, Ellen White is certainly a renowned biblical scholar and prolific author and yet she barely had an education at all!

It's because of our "lesser intellect" that God saw the need for us to have a modern day messenger to help us understand His word. Can you imagine the outcome of the Ethiopian had he rejected Phillip based on his pride of being able to understand the bible and the bible alone? In need of nothing. In need of no one to help?

This is of course the very reason we have hundreds of different interpretations of bible verses. Where there is no vision, the people perish! Aren't you glad God loved us enough to send us a messenger for our time? I sure am! I recognize my inferior intellect and thank God for His help!

[miz3]

ClubV12,

You obviously have trouble following a clear statement.

I was stating that the Bible is the HIGHEST INTELLECT because it is GOD'S WORD!

Lesser intellects are those beneath the Bible.

Ellen White herself placed herself beneath the Bible, Holy Scripture.

Therefore the "lesser intellects" being everything but the Bible are not able to fully understand the GREATER INTELLECT OF THE BIBLE!

That is why God sends to each of us the HOLY SPIRIT as He promised in the Bible to "TEACH US ALL THINGS".

The Bible no where states that Ellen White would teach us all things. Ellen White for all her true greatness as God's Messenger was NOT GREAT ENOUGH to interpret the Scripture flawlessly.

Ellen White herself never claimed to be the code breaker of Scripture.

Like every other human being she had definite opinions as to what she thought the Truth was but such is not always better than our own opinions.

Again your "idol worship" is clearly evident.

[ClubV12]

"Again your "idol worship" is clearly evident."

How sad that you consider mere sources of information to help explain the bible some kind of god, miz3. It is fanatical to suggest that some actually worship Ellen White. Such is the downward path of those who knowingly reject the light God has offered to His remnant people.

[miz3]

Ellen White is obviously your HIGHEST AUTHORITY!

Your own words are what condemn you.