Did God save the whole human race in Christ Jesus?

[Sonny]

The line of argument which puts salvation in the past and separates it from the belief, repentence, confession, submission and/or baptism of the believer is misleading.

Then faith is the Savior.

Then repentance is the Savior.

Then Confession is the Savior.

The submission & baptism are the Savior.

Gal 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ , through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

If you think that the things you listed contributes to your salvation "in Christ" then you are boasting, period!!!

1 Cor 1:30 But by His doing [God's doing - His perfect work] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, that is our righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

[Sonny]

Phil 3:1 Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not tiresome, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of the dogs [wolves in sheep's clothing], beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision [see Acts chapter 15]. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh [anything outside glory to God]; 4 though I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. [Paul is speaking of his life as a Pharisee] If any other man thinks that he has confidence in the flesh, I yet more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the assembly; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, found blameless. 7 However, what things were gain to me, these have I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yes most assuredly, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but dung, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Your faith doesn't save you - it merely accepts what Christ has already done. Your works don't save you because you are only experiencing what you already have in Christ. There's no credit for you - not even 1%. You owe everything to God's perfect work in Christ.

[Sonny]

Karl, so you weren't already saved "in Christ" even when you were "dead in trespasses & sins" - i.e., before you accepted Christ?

Well, I'll have to go with Paul because he says different. Are you ready? Here goes:

Eph 2:4 ... because of his great [agape] for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

6 And God raised us up with Christ [at the resurrection] and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved [refers to the cross], through faith [this is how you accepted this truth]--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--[i.e., even faith comes from God] 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

In other words you'll experience what you already are "in Christ" as you remain in Him by faith. Even here God is the One doing the work.

But the point is that God saved you "in Christ" almost 2000 years ago.

[Sonny]

6 And God raised us up with Christ [at the resurrection] and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

So since the ascension of Christ you have been "in Him" in the heavenly places.

Here's this truth again:

Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness [this world], and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son , 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Again, "in Christ" God completed His work of redemption. That's what the Sabbath points to. All other Sabbath keeping is legalistic and belongs to the Old Covenant of salvation by works & glory for me.

Again, when you rest as God rested 2000 years ago during the Sabbath, you are making a statement that you can't add to what God did "in Christ Jesus". You can only experience what is already true of you "in Him"!

When you accepted this truth as an individual, Jesus represented you before His law as you are "in Him". This is what it means to stand before God's law justified. As long as you remain "in Him" by faith, Christ will represent you perfect in Himself. And yes, you'll get to experience what's already true of you "in Him". Hence you'll grow in grace. But all this is based on a finished work!

[Sonny]

Not only did God take you to heaven "in Christ Jesus", but what made this all possible is because your old life from Adam came to an end "in Christ" 2000 + years ago.

Evidence:

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that One died for all, therefore all died.... [ 2 Cor 5:14]

...our old self [our old life from Adam] was crucified with Him [Rom 6:6]

"you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ" [Rom 7:4]

[Sonny]

2 Cor 5:14 For the [agape] of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died ; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh [what he/she is in Adam]; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh [during His earthly life], yet now we know Him in this way no longer [He was raised in a glorified state]. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ [i.e, if he/she is aware of this truth], he [she] is a new creation [in Christ]; the old things passed away ; behold all things have become new. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world [the human race] to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God [in other words accept this truth through faith - i.e., believe it]. 21 He [God] made Him [Jesus] who knew no sin to be sin (as the 2nd Adam), so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

[Sonny]

So, as Christians, we may say with confidence that we are saved. But at the same time, we must confess that we are being saved and that we will be saved.

We are already saved from all condemnation and, therefore, have peace with God [see Romans 5:1; 8:1], but we are also being saved from indwelling sin as we continue to “fight the good fight of the faith” [1 Timothy 6:12]. And, finally, we look forward to Christ’s glorious appearing, when we shall be saved from the corruption of sin that has infiltrated every member of our bodies [see Romans 8:23-25; 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; Philippians 3:20-21]. [Copied from Jack's Webpage]

[Gustave]

It requires faith

As a Seventh-day Adventist how do you understand the Old Covenant commandment....

...To honor the Sabbath day?

...Does that take any effort on your part or is is merely a concept?

When Scripture says Faith works THROUGH love......

...And also says we are to love our enemies and one another.

...Do you believe that to simply be a concept that requires no effort on your part?

[karl]

I have no problem with Christians saying they are being saved. I have a problem with people claiming that the unsaved were saved by Christ's death and the way they got unsaved was by rejecting the salvation they already had.

The lost are not saved - they are lost until they submit to Christ. They are dead until they are quickened. They are not saved and then lost and then saved again. They don't have eternal life and then don't have it and then have it again.

[Gerr]

As a Seventh-day Adventist how do you understand the Old Covenant commandment....

FYI - he is NOT a SDA.

[Sonny]

As a Seventh-day Adventist how do you understand the Old Covenant commandment.......To honor the Sabbath day?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: gustave

As a Seventh-day Adventist how do you understand the Old Covenant commandment....

FYI - he is NOT a SDA.

yes and no...

[Gustave]

Sonny, you seemed to have a problem with the way I described how Salvation works...

...As least the way I understand it.

...And claimed "works" were NOT a part of that process.

I quoted Scripture to demonstrate that had Abram NOT moved his faith would have been dead...

...This is in total keeping with the New Testament Scriptures.

...Our Salvation is a PROCESS by which we fight against our nature to COOPERATE with the Graces God gives us.

You thought that was so much lunch meat as I recall.

I assumed you were an SDA and believed in "observing the Saturday"...

...This is why I asked you IF there was anything YOU were required to do ( on your end ).

...To observe 'the Saturday'?

If you say there isn't ANYTHING you could do on your end to cooperate with observing this day....

...Than I stand corrected and you would view Saturday no different then Tuesday, etc.

...If you say NO and there are things you believe God expects you to do to properly observe the day.

...Would THAT in and of itself not be "WORKS"?

[Sonny]

I have a problem with people claiming that the unsaved were saved by Christ's death and the way they got unsaved was by rejecting the salvation they already had.

How are infants saved that never had a chance to accept Christ? Ellen White didn't know if all of them would be saved, but she did say many would.

How are those who never heard the name of Christ saved? We know from Ellen White that there will many who will ask Christ what are those nail prints in your hands. They didn't know Christ, but through nature their consciences were quickened....

When you accepted Christ you were accepting something that already happened. Did you read those verses that I posted?

[Sonny]

...And claimed "works" were NOT a part of that process.

[Gustave]

You cannot add to what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago. That work is complete. That's the reason SDA should keep the Sabbath. It will be the issue towards the end of time.

You cannot add works to what Christ did. Only those who accept this can experience genuine agape. All other works are polluted with man's attempt to glory in his flesh.

That's simply "once saved always saved" theology....

...And your view of Saturday being "an issue" at the end of time.

...Is not able to be reconciled with O.S.A.S.

Perhaps describe what, in the end times, would be the restulf of one NOT observing Saturday?

...When as you put it,Christ already did it 2000 years ago.

It appears you have one foot inside SDAism....

...And the other in Reformation theology.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

I have a problem with people claiming that the unsaved were saved by Christ's death and the way they got unsaved was by rejecting the salvation they already had.

How are infants saved that never had a chance to accept Christ?

How are those who never heard the name of Christ saved?

When you accepted Christ you were accepting something that already happened. Did you read those verses that I posted?

It is faulty logic to claim that because someone cannot fully work through a certain salvation pathway they must be saved in another way.

God is proving that we can trust Him and that He KNOWS them that are His. Some babies will be saved and some will not. Some who have never heard the name of Christ will be saved and some will not. God KNOWS who is safe to save and who is not.

It is true that when I accepted Christ I accepted something that had already happened. I also accepted and cooperated in something that was happening and was going to continue to happen.

[Israfel]

Now what? Why did he die? To save us. To save us from what?

Answer: "For He shall save His people from their sins" Matt 1:21

Ah, Ha! Here is something, not in our sins, but from them, all of them.

Who agrees here with Holy Script?

[Sonny]

That's simply "once saved always saved" theology....

[Sonny]

Some babies will be saved and some will not.

Actually Ellen White never said that all babies wouldn't be saved. She just said she didn't know. How can a baby make a choice. It can't. Therefore what saved them?

[Sonny]

Now what? Why did he die? To save us. To save us from what?

Answer: "For He shall save His people from their sins" Matt 1:21

Ah, Ha! Here is something, not in our sins, but from them, all of them.

Who agrees here with Holy Script?

So Israfel, have you ceased sinning? You are living Christ's life of self-denial? There's no self-seeking or self-love in your life? You never think of self, but rather you live as the servant of all? You live, not to gain your own wealth, but so others may prosper?

If not, you're still bent towards self and according to your theology you won't be in heaven because you are still in your sins.

Actually, the verse you quoted, has been taken out of context. He came to save us from our sins because our sins are condemned by the law of God. Under the law sinners stand condemned. He came to save us from the curse of the law.

Hence, Gal 4:4

"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."

Gal 3:10

"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse ; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM"

[miz3]

Powerful stuff, Sonny!

By the way Israfel does think that he has overcome all known sin.

[miz3]

Sonny,

I would add only one thing to your marvelous treatise on Justification and the finished work of Christ in this regard.

Revelation 13:8 states that Jesus Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. That means in God's terms Jesus Christ's life, death, and resurrection was a finished work even before the foundation of the world.

In addition it is a common error for people to confuse the finished work of Jesus Christ with the unfinished work of Sanctification which is the work that actually cleans up our sinful life and makes us produce ONLY GOOD FRUIT (GOOD WORKS)!

[Sonny]

That means in God's terms Jesus Christ's life, death, and resurrection was a finished work even before the foundation of the world.

Yes, but finished in the sense God is omniscient and knew Christ would succeed. It was at the cross that this work was legally finished.

[miz3]

No disagreement there.

However, God acted on the Promise because for God (unlike you and I) the Promise is as good or the same as the action (or event).