Did God save the whole human race in Christ Jesus?

[skyblue888]

And here is a similar explanation:

"Although we have no merit in ourselves, in the great goodness and love of God we are rewarded as if the merit were our own. When we have done all the good we can possibly do, we are still unprofitable servants. We have done only what was our duty. What we have accomplished has been wrought solely through the grace of Christ, and no reward is due to us from God on the ground of our merit. But through the merit of our Savior, every promise that God has made will be fulfilled, and every man will be rewarded according to his deeds." {RH, June 27, 1893 par.15

Thank God for the simple Gospel, just as simple as the alphabet.

sky

[Sonny]

You are writing your own Bible.

I suggest reading the one provided by God all the way through. And stop using the black words to trump the red.

I suggest that you stop deceiving yourself that you are living Christ's life. That's the only thing that the law will except!

[Sonny]

They were alienated and enemies, but NOW they have been reconciled.

[karl]

I believe the best and the most simple explanation one can find on the full Gospel is in the words of Ellen White from the following statement which is a direct commentary upon this passage of Scripture: "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works and that we should walk in them." Eph.2:10.

"In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. But we are accepted through Christ’s merits alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of love, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works, in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that it is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed by the strength of our own sinful nature.” 5 B.C.1122.

I absolutely agree with the above, but this is not an article in favor of this thread title.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

You are writing your own Bible.

I suggest reading the one provided by God all the way through. And stop using the black words to trump the red.

I suggest that you stop deceiving yourself that you are living Christ's life. That's the only thing that the law will except!

Stop this, Sonny.

You're getting personal. This judging thing does not behoove you.

[karl]

Paul goes on to list all the wonderful works he did as a Pharisee! But Paul gave all his attainments up for Christ. In fact he called them dung....

This is the mark of a man who has been changed. Instead of glorying in his own self-righteousness, He glories only in the cross.

Do you believe Paul was saved before or after his Damascus road experience?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Paul goes on to list all the wonderful works he did as a Pharisee! But Paul gave all his attainments up for Christ. In fact he called them dung....

This is the mark of a man who has been changed. Instead of glorying in his own self-righteousness, He glories only in the cross.

Do you believe Paul was saved before or after his Damascus road experience?

Paul was saved when Christ died just like you. God justified the whole human race "in Christ". These texts are very clear.

Paul accepted Christ during his Damascus road experience. This is justification by faith. It's accepting that "in Christ" I stand perfect before God's law now and in the judgment.

[Sonny]

Quote:

I suggest that you stop deceiving yourself that you are living Christ's life. That's the only thing that the law will except!

Stop this, Sonny. You're getting personal. This judging thing does not behoove you.

No, judging would be telling you that you aren't going to be in heaven. I don't know that...so that would be judging.

However, to tell you that you aren't living Christ's life is not judging. The Bible is clear that we've all sinned and that we continue to fall short of God's agape love.

Here's Ellen White:

Our earthly life , however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect , and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then [not now] we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

I believe the best and the most simple explanation one can find on the full Gospel is in the words of Ellen White from the following statement which is a direct commentary upon this passage of Scripture: "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works and that we should walk in them." Eph.2:10.

"In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. But we are accepted through Christ’s merits alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of love, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works, in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that it is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed by the strength of our own sinful nature.” 5 B.C.1122.

I absolutely agree with the above, but this is not an article in favor of this thread title.

It covers all the bases of the plan of redemption.

sky

[Sonny]

Our earthly life , however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect , and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then [not now] we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

Did you get that, Karl? Our earthly life, when you measure it with the life of God, is frail & imperfect. When we stand with the redeemed then our lives will measure with the life of God.

So Paul is correct. All have sinned and all fall short of God's agape love as seen in the life of Christ.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

I absolutely agree with the above, but this is not an article in favor of this thread title.

It covers all the bases of the plan of redemption.

sky

[Sonny]

He procured redemption for all who will be obedient.

Imagine that - conditional redemption.

Imagine that. Karl can sing "that will be glory for me, glory for me, glory for me."

Karl, you are presenting legalism....Not only that, but this gospel of yours is heresy to the highest order.

Who are you kidding? Are you living Christ's life of a servant who did not live for Himself? Again, Christ thought not, lived not, planned not for Himself. There wasn't an ounce of self-interest in His life. That's obedience!

[karl]

Karl, you are presenting legalism....Not only that, but this gospel of yours is heresy to the highest order.

There are two kinds of legalism and I am presenting neither. One kind of legalism has man legally saving himself by keeping the commandments. The other kind has Christ legally saving man by His obedience, even unto death.

Both are legal solutions to a non-legal problem.

The great controversy is a relational problem, not a legal one. The problem of sin is not broken commandments - it is a broken relationship that leads to broken commandments. The broken commandments are the symptom. The broken relationship is the disease.

Christ calls us to be in relationship (yoked up) with Him and then He does the work - the healing - the restoring. He gets the credit. He gives us a new heart and puts His Spirit in us so that we keep and do His will. It is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

But this does not happen without our cooperation.

[Sonny]

But this [salvation by obedience] does not happen without our cooperation.

Then since you've been cooperating you're living Christ's life? You have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth? You think not, plan not, live not, for yourself?

Just when is this cooperation going to lead you to living Christ's life?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

But this [salvation by obedience] does not happen without our cooperation.

Then since you've been cooperating you're living Christ's life? You have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth? You think not, plan not, live not, for yourself?

Just when is this cooperation going to lead you to living Christ's life?

[Sonny]

Don't look to yourself, Sonny. And don't look to others. Look to Christ. Look and live.

The object is not for me to lead Christ's life. It is for Him to lead His life in me. He is the Potter. I am the clay.

That's nice...I guess you can assume he wants you sinning since you and I aren't living His life? His life answered the law.

If not, then you are depending what He does in you to save you. This salvation therefore depends on Him perfecting you before you die. This is a works trip...this is denying that in Christ you already stand before God's law perfect and complete.

What you are presenting is what the Galatians presented. It's another gospel, which is really no gospel at all.

[karl]

There is a difference between a complete and efficacious Sacrifice, which Jesus was on the cross, and a finished at-one-ment. According to Scripture, man was separated from God by sin (Isaiah 59:2). Therefore, the only way man could reunite with God was to overcome the sin that puts man out of harmony with Him. But since none could accomplish this in their own strength (John 15:5), Jesus came to earth to provide power whereby we could be saved FROM our sins (not IN our sins - Matthew 1:21). But this salvation cannot be ours unless we want it. “Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17). “And being made perfect He (Christ) became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him” (Hebrews 5:9).

I think you and your mentors are opposed to an ongoing at-one-ment in the heavenly sanctuary, but that is what God is still doing. Winning us to Himself.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Sonny, what did you mean when you said at the end times.......Saturday would "become an issue"?...What do you mean by that?

Those who have deliberately and ultimately turned their backs to the free gift of salvation in Christ will all worship the dragon which gave power unto the beast [Revelation 13:3-4]. These will exalt Sunday as man’s day of rest in defiance of the Sabbath, God’s rest day. The issue then in the final conflict will not be between two groups of Christians or even two rest days, but two opposing methods of salvation: the Sabbath, signifying salvation by faith alone, versus Sunday, signifying salvation by works or human effort.

Interesting that you should post this. Dale Ratzlaff - a student of Ford/Sequiera/Wieland - publisher of "Proclamation," is the mouthpiece for many former Advenstists who are already turning their backs on the Sabbath (they claim to be doing it in the name of resting in Christ's finished atonement work on the cross.) They exalt Ford's theology, but condescendingly refer to him in their publication as "still a Sabbatarian."

As they have logically concluded, once you throw out commandment-keeping as unnecessary, there is no reason to be a Sabbath keeper.

You will find agreement with your theology at the "Proclamation" website here:

http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2009/4/index.html

[miz3]

The object is not for me to lead Christ's life. It is for Him to lead His life in me. He is the Potter. I am the clay.

Have you ever noticed any lump of clay doing something. The Bible purposefully used this exact illustration precisely because the clay does absolutely NOTHING!

The clay doesn't even cooperate. The clay doesn't even choose. It becomes from beginning to end whatever the Potter wants it to be.

The POTTER DOES EVERYTHING!

Thank you karl for bringing this up.

[ClubV12]

That illustration would lead one to believe we can continue in open sin and still find salvation. That is simply not true.

[Sonny]

That illustration would lead one to believe we can continue in open sin and still find salvation. That is simply not true.

How do you define open sin?

[miz3]

That illustration my friend came from the Bible!

" “These people come near to me with their mouth

and honor me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from me.

Their worship of me

is made up only of rules taught by men.

14 Therefore once more I will astound these people

with wonder upon wonder;

the wisdom of the wise will perish,

the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish.”

15 Woe to those who go to great depths

to hide their plans from the LORD,

who do their work in darkness and think,

“Who sees us? Who will know?”

16 You turn things upside down,

as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!

Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,

“He did not make me”?

Can the pot say of the potter,

“He knows nothing”?"

Isaiah 29:13-16.

"Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘He has no hands’?"

Isaiah 45:9.

"Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand."

Isaiah 64:8.

"O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel."

Jeremiah 18:6.

"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

Romans 9:14-21.

God is using that illustration who are you to accuse God of causing people to continue in open sin. Are you now God's judge?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

That illustration would lead one to believe we can continue in open sin and still find salvation. That is simply not true.

How do you define open sin?

I'll help you:

Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

In Gal 5:1, Paul says, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free , and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. ... 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

So Christ has liberated us from the law because to be under law is condemnation for not living Christ's life, which answers the whole law. Since no one is living Christ's life we better not be under its jurisdiction. If we are we are in bondage. How so?

Gal 3:21 For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

Again, to be under law is bondage - you are in prison awaiting execution, which is the 2nd death, God abandonment.

Now that we've cleared this up, let's return to Gal 5, verse 14

For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Please, be honest, there's only one command, not two. It doesn't say you should love yourself. That's a given. We already are bent-to-self - it's quite evident. This is our problem.

So there's only one command: Agape your neighbor as you naturally, sinfully, love yourself.

That's why we can't be under law because none of us are doing this. Does that mean we can live like a Devil? No! Even Paul said, "Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others."

Paul realizes that we fall short of God's agape, a love that has no self-interest. Yet, at the same time because we've accepted what Christ did 2000 years, our minds should be opposite of the desires of our nature. That's the law written in the heart. Now we have desire to live for God, even though the flesh has a desire to live for itself and put Christ back on His cross.

So here's his advice:

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

When temptation comes, and it will, give it to the Spirit:

17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh ; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit (and the Spirit doesn't put us back under law), you are not under the Law.

19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Here's the thing, do we do these things?

Just a couple of days ago I really lost it with my step-son. He requires a lot of patience. He isn't good with his money, he talks big and, well, I lost my patience. After about 2 hours of arguing with him my nature took over. Then I had a fit of rage. No, no one got hurt, but I said some really mean things. I cursed too.

Well, that's not me - that is not my converted mind, that's my flesh. I didn't witness Christ....

Should I just say what the heck...I think I'll just live for my flesh? No! "How can we who died to sin (in Christ) go on living in it?" To live in it means to practice sin as a lifestyle. Now I'm talking about known sin or what God has laid on our hearts individually through the Spirit.

So if I can live in rage something is wrong with my faith. Something is wrong with my relationship. If my conscience doesn't bother me, wow, that's a hardened heart.

No folks, we cannot practice known sin, not because it's against the law, but because our conscience will prick us.

Again, a practiced sin is one we refuse to acknowledge as sin before God. If we can't admit our sin, then we don't need a Savior. That's the issue. Sooner or later we will harden our hearts and then we will end up rejecting the Son of God. When we do we've had it. That's the sin of which there's no pardon.