Did God save the whole human race in Christ Jesus?

[Sonny]

No disagreement there.

However, God acted on the Promise because for God (unlike you and I) the Promise is as good or the same as the action (or event).

True. We can see this in Romans 3:21

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law (Torah) and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe ; for there is no distinction ; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus ; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed ; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting ? It is excluded. By what kind of law ? Of works ? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

You see before the cross God didn't have a legal right to forgive sin. That's what verse 25 is addressing. He did it through His forbearance...His kindness. But not until the cross happened could God legally forgive sin. Like you said, He knew Christ would succeed, so He forgave all those before the cross.

[Gustave]

Sonny, what did you mean when you said at the end times....

...Saturday would "become an issue"?

...What do you mean by that?

Is there something you believe that YOU need to do....

...When this 'time' comes to pass?

...Please describe what you would need to do.

[karl]

He did it through His forbearance...His kindness. But not until the cross happened could God legally forgive sin. Like you said, He knew Christ would succeed, so He forgave all those before the cross.

[miz3]

Sonny,

What you have so eloquently written has been accused of as advocating a once saved always saved Doctrine.

I beg to differ that that is what you are teaching.

When God Justified every human at the Cross at that moment everyone was in a "saved" state. However, not everyone will actually be saved because of the Hebrews 2:3 Principle of Rejection. Also people will not be saved in spite of God's blanket Justification because of John 3:19 which states that they "loved darkness more than they loved light". People reject the Light that streams from the Cross.

We have an example:

King Saul of the Old Testament in 1Samuel 15:23

You can read the whole story in 1Samuel chapter 15. King Saul was Justified by the Cross but he rejected God's free gift. Judas Iscariot did the same thing. King Agrippa in Acts chapter 26 also rejected the free gift. Paul himself talked of many who once believed but rejected the Gift of God and walked no more with God's people.

This message from Sonny is in no way a "Once saved Always saved" message. Other than the Bible's clear announcement that someone has been lost no one knows but God who has rejected the gift and who has not rejected the gift. God is the only one who knows the heart!

[miz3]

karl,

The article you cited is a good example of the confusion one can have in regard to the difference between Justification and Sanctification. Even men and women of huge intellect get confused on these parts of the great Salvation God gives to humanity.

When we talk about getting at the "root" of sin in the human entity that is the Sanctification process. That is a whole different process than the "finished work of Jesus Christ" which we call Justification.

Using words like "imputed and imparted" or "objective and subjective" are just fancy ways of trying to dance around the issues. There simply are two different processes regardless of "label". The two processes do not act the same and they each have a different objective in mind.

Like I said many people both within Christianity and without Christianity are constantly getting these two major processes confused. Such confusion is quite common.

It appears you are among the confused. (no offense is meant by this).

[skyblue888]

In the plan of redemption, both justification and sanctification have their place but none will be saved on accounts of good works even though good works wrought by the grace of God will be rewarded. /These good works do not play a part in the salvation of the soul. Here only the merits of Christ will avail in our behalf.

"Works without faith are dead; faith without works is dead; works will never save us. It is the merits of Christ that will avail in our behalf." F.W.48.

sky

[miz3]

I don't believe I was advocating that works were part of what saves us.

No amount of "good works" can save us!

However, that does not mean that "good works" are not important. True "good works" are the result of God changing the "root" of the human entity we talked about in my previous post. This work is the work of Sanctification.

In the work of Sanctification we can only speak for ourselves because no one but God knows where we are in the Sanctification Process. We also may not even know ourselves where we are in this Sanctifying Process. Just because we see "good works" doesn't mean a human entity has been saved. In like manner not being able to see any "good works" does not mean that a person is Lost. Often "phony good works" look a lot like "genuine good works" and thus can be confusing. Either way "any kind of works" does nothing at all to determine whether a human is saved or not saved".

"Good works" are the fruit of the Sanctifying Process.

We are only scratching the surface of this marvelous Doctrine.

Justification as Sonny has pointed out extremely well is a finished work. This finished work is what saves us unless we REJECT GOD'S FINISHED WORK!

Sanctification is only a finished work when God says it is. Most of us appear to be still a work in progress. While this process is ongoing a human entity can REJECT GOD'S FINISHED WORK OF JUSTIFICATION! As Paul points out many of those he knew did in fact REJECT GOD'S FINISHED WORK! Paul spoke under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit!

[skyblue888]

Which simply means that we walk in those works which God prepared beforehand.

"We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto

good works which God prepared beforehand and that we should

walk in them." Eph.2:10.

But these good works wrought by the Grace of God DO NOT play a part in the salvation of the soul.

"There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ." T.M.97.

sky

[Sonny]

Sonny, what did you mean when you said at the end times.......Saturday would "become an issue"?...What do you mean by that?

When this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations [Matthew 24:14]; it will polarize or divide the human race into only two camps — believers and unbelievers [1 John 5:19], those who are fully resting in Christ and those who have ultimately rejected Christ. All who come under the banner of Christ will in the end-time worship the Lord of the Sabbath and their Sabbath keeping will be the outward sign or seal of the righteousness they have already received by faith, just as circumcision was to Abraham “a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised” [Romans 4:11].

Those who have deliberately and ultimately turned their backs to the free gift of salvation in Christ will all worship the dragon which gave power unto the beast [Revelation 13:3-4]. These will exalt Sunday as man’s day of rest in defiance of the Sabbath, God’s rest day. The issue then in the final conflict will not be between two groups of Christians or even two rest days, but two opposing methods of salvation: the Sabbath, signifying salvation by faith alone, versus Sunday, signifying salvation by works or human effort.

[Sonny]

This message from Sonny is in no way a "Once saved Always saved" message. Other than the Bible's clear announcement that someone has been lost no one knows but God who has rejected the gift and who has not rejected the gift. God is the only one who knows the heart!

No one can blame God for being lost. God has done it all in the person Jesus Christ. Yes, many will be lost, but also many will be saved. Those who are not saved have decided they can improve on what God did in Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

As Christ said, "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners". By the way, Paul clearly teaches that "there is none righteous, no, not even one." And Christ stated, "there is none good, except one, that is God."

So what Christ is saying is that he didn't come to call the self-righteous, but sinners who realize their need of His righteousness.

The self-righteous aren't listening. After all, they want credit.

[miz3]

Amen!

[Sonny]

The article you cited is a good example of the confusion one can have in regard to the difference between Justification and Sanctification.

Karl is theologically in error.

Justification is much more than the mere forgiveness of past sins - justification is to stand just (spotless) before God's law in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He [Christ] has reconciled 22 [where?] in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His [God's] sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Notice that Christ has already reconciled - i.e., justified you - in His fleshly body, through death (i.e., the cross). Why? To present you, through His flesh, holy & blameless.

This is the gospel. Your job is to "continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel (the 2nd coming).

[miz3]

Again, AMEN!

[Sonny]

"We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God prepared beforehand and that we shouldwalk in them." Eph.2:10.

Yes, but I believe before you can actually start experiencing a change, that you must first accept what was stated before Eph 2:10.

Let's go over that once again:

Eph 2:4 But because of his great [agape] for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

That's the gospel!

Because God loves us more than Himself, God placed us into Christ at the incarnation. He did this when we were His enemies and living for the flesh. By this act of grace, Paul states "you have been saved"!

Sunday morning God took our glorified, corporate humanity to heaven, in Christ Jesus, and Christ presents us before the Father spotless & blameless.

verse 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Notice, grace saved us. Not grace received, but grace. God's work is done. Now what are you going to do with Jesus (as Gail asked in another thread?)

You accept what He has already done, through faith.

Now you are ready for the next part:

10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[miz3]

Ephesians 2:1-10 is one my very favorite passages of Scripture!

Very powerful Sonny!

God does not expect us to labor to be saved!

God does expect us to labor in His vineyard because we are already saved by His Grace (the finished work of Jesus Christ)!

[Sonny]

Here's another one:

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His [agape] for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us [where?] richly in Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy statement ; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

Let's look at verse 5 thru 6:

Note that when Christ appeared "HE SAVED US" - not based on works we've done, but rather by the Holy Spirit that He poured out on us IN CHRIST JESUS.

You see Christ had to depend on the Holy Spirit to live a life free from iniquity. This can be seen in Romans 8:2-3

2 For the law of the Spirit [the power of the Spirit] [where?] in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Where were you? "In Christ Jesus"! Your life was in Him because He assumed the life of Adam after the fall. Since we are merely copies of Adam's life, Christ assumed you too. Why? Because we all share one life - the life of Adam after the fall.

So "in Christ" the power of the Spirit set you free (in Christ) from two things:

1] The law of sin - i.e., the power of sin

2] The 2nd death

All this is true "in Christ"

verse 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: [how?] sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and on account of sin, He [Jesus, through the Spirit] condemned sin [where?] in the flesh....

Christ never, not even by a thought, did anything sinful. He defeated "the law of sin" - the power of sin (i.e., the love of self) in our humanity.

So again, "in Christ" we have a glorified, corporate humanity in heaven itself. This humanity, cleansed, is what stands before God's law in Christ. In Him you are blameless.

This is the good news of the gospel. This is what saves. Yes, and then comes the fruit.

[Gustave]

the Sabbath, signifying salvation by faith alone

Your statement is a paradox......

...You will need to explain it in another way.

...What you just said was "faith alone" + Saturday = Salvation.

...Yet you claim my Faith + Works = error.

I was expecting something other than Fath + Saturday.

[Sonny]

...What you just said was "faith alone" + Saturday = Salvation.

never said that....

[Sonny]

Faith doesn't save, faith accepts what Christ did 2000 years ago.

The Sabbath doesn't save, rather it points to Christ's finished work of redemption.

Do you believe that "in Christ" God rested from His perfect & complete work of redemption? Do you believe that "in Christ" you already stand justified, sanctified and glorified? (see 1 Cor 1:30)

If so then God asks you to rest as He did every 7th-day as a sign. Why? It's a sign of faith. Your resting is a sign that states that I can't add to God's perfect work of redemption "in Christ"!

[karl]

Faith doesn't save, faith accepts what Christ did 2000 years ago.

Faith participates (cooperates) as well as accepts. It participates in Christ's death and in His life. "I am crucified with Christ" is a participatory statement - present tense.

[Sonny]

Quote:

It participates in Christ's death and in His life

Not if your so called participation is in order to be saved. You must accept that "in Christ" you are saved or God will not give you agape - the fruits of the gospel. If He did He would be validating your error of salvation by works.

[karl]

You are writing your own Bible.

I suggest reading the one provided by God all the way through. And stop using the black words to trump the red. If Christ states that forgiveness is conditional, you have absolutely no right to insist it is unconditional.

[karl]

Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He [Christ] has reconciled 22 [where?] in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His [God's] sight 23 if indeed you continue in the faith,

Your theory of universal justification ignores the first phrase in the text above. Notice the timeline. They were alienated and enemies, but NOW they have been reconciled. And the reconciliation comes through the "crucified with Christ" aspect of death, which occurs at some time in the believers life, not at the time of Christ's crucifixion.

If universal legal justification were true, Paul would not have used the first phrase above, nor would he have used the word "now" or the word "has" before the word "reconciled" at the end of verse 21.

[Musicman1228]

Just an observation based on a review of the material on this thread: 95% of all the texts used to both prove and disprove the proposition come from the writings of Paul. Both sides use Paul as the center point of their opposing theologies.

I find it fascinating that for the most part the words of Jesus Christ are left out of the discussion. I wonder why.

[skyblue888]

I believe the best and the most simple explanation one can find on the full Gospel is in the words of Ellen White from the following statement which is a direct commentary upon this passage of Scripture: "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works and that we should walk in them." Eph.2:10.

"In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. But we are accepted through Christ’s merits alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of love, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works, in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that it is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed by the strength of our own sinful nature.” 5 B.C.1122.

That says all.

sky