Moderators Gerr Posted June 20, 2011 Moderators Posted June 20, 2011 How does that answer the law? Here it is again. Why don't you read it? The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2} Quote
Twilight II Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Have you considered Zechariah 3 Sonny? After the righteousness of Christ is given to man, there is a condition that follows. Again, try to remain on the subject. That is dealing with the subject Sonny... It describes the sinner receiving righteousness and the conditions that follow to maintain that righteousness. One of the clearest texts in the bible on the subject. When you have time, read it and share your thoughts. I think studied prayerfully it will help you to see where you have drifted off the path on this subject. Mark :-) Quote
Twilight II Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 "He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature" [Medical Ministry, Page 181] Very plain! Sinful nature (in this quote) means the body of humanity degraded by millenia of sin. Not a sinful moral/spiritual nature. Notice that Jesus "took upon" or "put on" our sinful nature (as used here by Ellen White), in other words, He was "clothed" with a fallen human body. He was still spiritually and morally God, not fallen man. Quote
Sonny Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. Okay, so you are looking to Ellen White to tell me how Christ answered the law? The problem is you are the sinner & Christ isn't. The law demands your death. How can Christ take you to heaven and yet maintain integrity to his law that justly condemns you? You haven't answered that question! Quote
Sonny Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 It describes the sinner receiving righteousness.... How can a sinner receive righteousness he/she didn't produce? BTW, the subject is the gospel, not justification by faith, which is the reception of the gospel by faith. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 20, 2011 Moderators Posted June 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. Okay, so you are looking to Ellen White to tell me how Christ answered the law? I used her writings because she expressed better what I was going to say. If you can use JS, anything wrong with me using EGW? Quote: The problem is you are the sinner & Christ isn't. The law demands your death. How can Christ take you to heaven and yet maintain integrity to his law that justly condemns you? You haven't answered that question! I can't believe this. You who frequently talks to others that they don't know or don't understand fails to see in ALL the examples that I have given you & in EGW's statement that Christ offers to take the sinner's place - me. Isaiah says Jesus took the stripes, the ridicule, the beatings, the spitting, the mocking, AND THE DEATH in YOUR place & MINE, so that you & I can go free! His death for my life! That satisfied the demands of the law! SUBSTITUTION! Paul said He was made to be sin FOR US so that we might become the righteousness of God. Is that fair? Is it legal? Well, in God's courtroom it must be. Christ is the ONLY ONE who could satisfy the demands of the law. You can't, and I can't. I accept that offer by faith. AND JUST AS I TAKE GOD'S WORD FOR REAL, HE ALSO ACCEPTS MY WORD OF REPENTANCE FOR REAL AND TREATS ME AS THOUGH I HAD NEVER SINNED! Now, what could be better news than that. But He knows I cannot obey perfectly because I'm still imprisoned in a fallen body. But if I continue to live and walk in the Spirit, I am not condemned for the inadvertent transgressions that I commit because I am no longer under the law but under grace. As I have pointed out what the Apostle John said many many times, those who abide/remain/live in Christ, will no longer willfully and deliberately and intentionally transgress His commandments. (1 Jn 3:6-9) Quote
Sonny Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny "He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature" [Medical Ministry, Page 181] Very plain! Sinful nature (in this quote) means the body of humanity degraded by millenia of sin. Quote
Sonny Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 I used her writings because she expressed better what I was going to say. If you can use JS, anything wrong with me using EGW? I understand, but ultimately we need to explain it from the Bible, right? In my study of Jack I didn't take his word, I went to Paul. Now, you still haven't explain to me how Christ an take you to heaven and yet maintain integrity to his law that justly condemns you? Quote
Twilight II Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II It describes the sinner receiving righteousness.... How can a sinner receive righteousness he/she didn't produce? BTW, the subject is the gospel, not justification by faith, which is the reception of the gospel by faith. Because it is a gift... From God... Just as life is a gift... Quote
Sonny Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 That satisfied the demands of the law! SUBSTITUTION! No that's heresy! That's RC. The law demands YOUR death, Gerry. Your life must die. Christ isn't the sinner. The law is not content with another's death, especially if they are sinless. Your gospel is unethical - hence it makes God go against His own law. You are throwing the law out. You are making it void! Quote
Twilight II Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo That satisfied the demands of the law! SUBSTITUTION! No that's heresy! That's RC. The law demands YOUR death, Gerry. Your life must die. Christ isn't the sinner. The law is not content with another's death, especially if they are sinless. Your gospel is unethical - hence it makes God go against His own law. You are throwing the law out. You are making it void! The bible is clear that the sins of the sinner are transferred onto the Lamb Sonny... Quote
Sonny Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 The bible is clear that the sins of the sinner are transferred onto the Lamb Sonny... Okay, then if we are to stick with your metaphor, your savior is a lamb, goat or bull. Come on...get out of the metaphors and into reality. Get with Paul Hb 10:3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me ; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy (past tense) through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. That body was "the body of sin" a body indwelt with sin. You know, fallen humanity, the folks Christ came to rewrite their history. Quote
ClubV12 Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 For most of this thread we've been hearing that the gospel has little or nothing to do with the law and now this: Sonny says, "You are throwing the law out. You are making it void!" Man the gospel must be incredibly complicated, or so it would seem from this thread! Quote
Sonny Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 For most of this thread we've been hearing that the gospel has little or nothing to do with the law and now this: No, no...you are confused. The law must be fulfilled either by you or by Christ. What you guys keep bringing up is your law keeping. The gospel isn't about your law keeping...it's about Christ's. Your law keeping is, well, let's say it isn't measuring up to Christ's.....So that's out. Quote
Twilight II Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II The bible is clear that the sins of the sinner are transferred onto the Lamb Sonny... Okay, then if we are to stick with your metaphor, your savior is a lamb, goat or bull. Come on...get out of the metaphors and into reality. Get with Paul Hb 10:3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me ; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy (past tense) through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. That body was "the body of sin" a body indwelt with sin. You know, fallen humanity, the folks Christ came to rewrite their history. I think I am beginning to understand your argument. It wasn't sin that Christ got rid of. But the Law? Do I understand you correctly? Quote
Sonny Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 I think I am beginning to understand your argument. It wasn't sin that Christ got rid of. But the Law? Do I understand you correctly? No! Quote
miz3 Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 You guys do all sorts of dancing to try to get around the fact that Christ, as the son of man, took our humanity indwelt with sin - Why? I agree with you they are dancing. However, you have also done some pretty fancy dancing when talking to me and answering my questions. Quote
miz3 Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 How can a sinner receive righteousness he/she didn't produce? Twilight is exactly correct it is a Gift. The whole Plan of Salvation is a Gift! Humans canot "EARN" anything in this Plan! Everything in the Plan is a "GIFT"! Quote
Dr. Rich Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny How can a sinner receive righteousness he/she didn't produce? Twilight is exactly correct it is a Gift. The whole Plan of Salvation is a Gift! Humans canot "EARN" anything in this Plan! Everything in the Plan is a "GIFT"! If 'it' is a free gift then you must be able to support this by using the words of Jesus. I don't believe you can because it is NOT a free gift as the words of Jesus found in Revelation prove. Rev. 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quckly and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done." A reward is NOT a free gift! Quote
miz3 Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 The law is not content with another's death, especially if they are sinless. The Law does no such thing. You are making this up. The Law is content with whatever God does! Quote
Sonny Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 Humans canot "EARN" anything in this Plan! Everything in the Plan is a "GIFT"! But God must do it within the framework of His law - agape love. God cant' lie....So the law had to be fulfilled by Christ! And He did by taking our corporate, fallen life into Himself. Hence He rewrote our history. Quote
miz3 Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 That body was "the body of sin" a body indwelt with sin. You know, fallen humanity, the folks Christ came to rewrite their history. It doesn't say that Sonny. You are adding you stuff to the Word of God. It just says a "body was prepared". That's it! You cannot add to the Scripture things that are not there. Quote
Sonny Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 The Law is content with whatever God does! So if God takes Satan to heaven that's okay - the law's happy with whatever God does? Quote
Sonny Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 It just says a "body was prepared". That's it! And where did Christ receive this body? Answer: Mary Quote
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