Sonny Posted June 21, 2011 Author Posted June 21, 2011 There was no genetic material from either Joseph or Mary in the embryo that became the Son of God. This is nonsense. The Son of God existed before the incarnation. The Son of God was united to our fallen humanity in the womb of Mary. The life produced was the Son of Man. To be a son of mankind means exactly what it states. The fact that Jesus became a male means Jesus became what He was not by Divine right - i.e., human. Quote
Sonny Posted June 21, 2011 Author Posted June 21, 2011 Miz3, It appears that you, MM and I are waisting our time posting or replying to Sonny as he just called me a liar without presenting evidence that I lied. Quote
WayneV Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Sonny and miz3, Please see my last post of today on the "Creeds" thread. Agape` Quote WayneV Just remember these words of warning, for they will come to pass all too soon: If you are ever flying through the desert and your canoe breaks down, remember that it takes three pancakes to lift the doghouse, because there ain't nary a bone in ice cream!
miz3 Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 What is your main problem concerning sin? You have a humanity, indwelt with iniquity, that is self-seeking and looks out for its own self. This humanity must die forever. It is useless...If it had the chance it would take God off His throne. Here is where you are wrong! Our problem is not our humanity. Humanity is not of itself evil. Sin is what is evil. Sin polluted our humanity. So it is the sin within us that is the problem. The problem is not our humanity. Sonny, you are making our humanity the problem and that is not the problem. Like I said and repeat again, SIN IS THE PROBLEM! Because this is true, God placed our sin on Jesus Christ on the Cross. God did not place our humanity on Jesus Christ, only our sin. This is a very simple Gospel and it is the Bible Gospel! Quote
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 Sin polluted our humanity Sin has ruined our humanity. The flesh has cravings that is harmony with iniquity. That's why Paul says "sin in my members". And EGW says, "Through sin the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul."[MAR 91] Every fiber of our being, our humanity, is polluted with selfishness, self-interests & self-seeking. It's beyond repair. Quote
miz3 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Sonny, It is still the sin that is the problem. God came to remove the sin (that is what the Bible says including Paul). God did not come to remove humanity! God placed our sins on Jesus Christ. God did NOT place our humanity on Jesus Christ! Sin may have ruined humanity but that does not make humanity the problem. Sin, sin, sin, is the problem! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2011 Moderators Posted June 22, 2011 Jesus Christ is not a metaphor! Jesus Christ is Fact! I agree. I never said He was a metaphor. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said or thought of. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Quote: Originally Posted By: SonnyHeb 10:5 ...when he (the Son of God) comes into the world, he says, You (God the Father) had no desire for offerings, but you made a body ready for me (i.e., my Deity) The body spoken of here is a reference to: 1. The OUTER BODY of Jesus Christ. 2. This OUTER BODY was conceived ONLY by the Holy Spirit. No human DNA was involved at all! It is also a false connection you then make from this clear statement about Christ's OUTER BODY to the Romans chapter seven text. Quote: Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. 4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7:1-6. Now Sonny lets look at this Romans chapter seven text in context. 1. Your Hebrews chapter ten text was talking about Jesus Christ's OUTER BODY! That is just plain and simple Truth! 2. Romans chapter seven verses one through three are illustrating how the marriage can be broken by the death of one partner. 3. Paul is referring to the marriage we have with the "sinful nature". 4. The time period Paul is talking about is the Cross. Hebrews chapter ten is referring to the Incarnation. These are two completely different events. No connection here! On this basis alone you cannot link these two texts to each other. But there is more. 5. In verse four Paul tells us God placed our sins (not our humanity or anything else, JUST SINS) on Jesus Christ! 6. By placing our sins on Jesus Christ at the Cross God separated us from our marriage to the "sinful nature". In other words our "sinful nature" was killed on the Cross (not before) and as such we are now free to marry some else. 7. God then married us (humans) to Himself because we were no longer married to anyone else. 8. In verse six Paul states that the Law has now been satisfied. 9. The Law was not satisfied at the Incarnation, the Law was not satisfied at the Temptation! NO! The Law was satisfied only at the Cross! YES! 10. This text, Romans 7:1-6. Is in no way shape or form linked to the Hebrews chapter 10 verse five text you cited earlier. These two texts Hebrews chapter 10:5 and Romans chapter 7:1-6 are talking about two different things. Again, Sonny you are misusing the Scripture! You surely must realize that you are doing this in error! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2011 Moderators Posted June 22, 2011 With Moderators hat on: I just came on the forum a short time ago. Let me go through the thread and delete and edit personal attacks. Please don't argue online with the changes I make. I am not deleting arguments because I disagree with them, but if I delete or edit something, it will be because I consider it a violation of the rules of the forum. Saying that an argument or evidence is a lie is not the same as calling someone a liar. Have fun with each other, guys. Learn by having fun talking with people that may see things differently than you do. That's really the point here. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight II Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 The only time Jesus Christ ever was made "sinful" was on the Cross! Agreed. :-) But ask the Lord to give you patience when dealing with these subjects and tenderness. It is not something we possess of ourselves, but it is something Christ supplies. When you get drawn into personal debates with others, the force of your message is lost. You have been drawn in this instance. Mark :-) Quote
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 The only time Jesus Christ ever was made "sinful" was on the Cross! Agreed. :-) Keep in mind Christ is God. At the incarnation He assumed our fallen, sinful life. That life stood condemned because of indwelling sin. Yet Christ lived a perfect life in obedience to God in our sinful flesh. You see the body can't sin, but because it's fallen its cravings are bent to itself. The flesh is self-centered. These cravings or lusts tempt the mind because without the consent of the mind the cravings of our members will not get its way. Because our humanity has been ruined by iniquity, Christ had to take this life to the grave. The humanity Christ assumed is our humanity...the humanity of Adam after the fall. Since Christ has rewritten our history we can come boldly before God in the Most Holy Place. We are complete in Christ. Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brothers, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus (his/our humanity laid down in death), 20 by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh Quote
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 6. By placing our sins on Jesus Christ at the Cross God separated us from our marriage to the "sinful nature". But it's not just the sinful nature, it's a body polluted by our bent-to-self. Everything has polluted hence the whole man must die. And we did, "in Christ" Rom 7:4 ...." you (not just your sinful nature) also died to the law through the body of Christ... Quote
Dr. Rich Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 With Moderators hat on: I just came on the forum a short time ago. Let me go through the thread and delete and edit personal attacks. Please don't argue online with the changes I make. I am not deleting arguments because I disagree with them, but if I delete or edit something, it will be because I consider it a violation of the rules of the forum. Saying that an argument or evidence is a lie is not the same as calling someone a liar. Have fun with each other, guys. Learn by having fun talking with people that may see things differently than you do. That's really the point here. In the old west, tellling someone what they said was a lie would get them killed. It is the SAME as calling someone a liar. But calling someone a lie to their face was not as bad as telling others that the person lied. Slander gets it's foundation from the 8th Commandment which is testifying about something that is not true. Many people have testified falsly that the words of Paul are the words of God. Such testimony is lying against the Holy Spirit, therefore called blasphemy, AND a sin that will not be foregiven. If people want to believe that Paul's words are the same as Gods, that is their choice. But when they do this publicly and I see it or hear it, it is my God given duty to point out that it is a lie. Failing my duty as a bondservant for Christ, I could be just as bad as the one who did it. This is serious stuff! I have pointed this out to my own pastors and lately when they read the words of Paul, they actually call them the words of Paul. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Miz3, when you testify what it was that Jesus came to this earth to do, could you please provide the evidence from the words of Jesus to prove your point? Same goes for God placing sins upon Jesus. Where did this come from? If any sin was placed upon Jesus He could not have been the perfect Lamb of God. In fact, Jesus's death was as the Passover Lamb. The Passover lamb NEVER was to remove any sins or take any sins from anyone away. It is true that Jesus paid the penalty for Adam's sin AND anyone's sins who repents and becomes righteous, but Jesus did not take on any sins from anyone! A SIN is what someone has done (verb). It is not a noun. Quote
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 1 Corinthians 3:6 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? Do believers still retain indwelling sin (i.e., the sinful nature)? Yes. First I'll give you the Bible: 1 Cor 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust [Adam], we shall also bear [future tense] the image of the heavenly Man (Jesus). 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be change. Now Ellen White: "The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). Okay, so I have established that in the believer we still retain a sinful nature. We don't have holy flesh - a glorified humanity. And I have also established that God, in the form of the Holy Spirit, dwells in our humanity. Conclusion: The Holy Spirit resides in our sinful humanity and yet He isn't polluted with sin. Likewise, Christ as God, was not polluted with sin for taking upon His Deity our sinful humanity. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Sonny, I see that you provided words from Paul but not from Jesus Christ to prove your point. Don't you even get a small hint that something smells fishy here? First of all, Satan's question that caused a third of the angels to fall with him is the same thing you are presenting here--the Yin and Yang, that there is evil in good and good in evil. The is the heart and foundation of all eastern religions. But it is NOT what Jesus Christ said or taught. This is why Jesus said one must first be born of the Holy Spirit before they can even SEE the Kingdom of Heaven. Being born of 'God' means that there is NO sin in this person any longer and that this person will NEVER sin again! (See 1Jn. 3:6-9) What is sin? It is a violation of the Ten Commandments and the testimony of Jesus Christ (His words given to us by the eyewitnesses) It is also believing a lie as found in Rev. 21:8 and 22:15. As such, it is impossible for sins to be placed on anyone else. Jesus paid the penalty for Adam's sin AND all who repent and become righteous. That's it! If you don't think you can become righteous, then that is entirely your own choice. But don't be like Paul who said it is impossible to become righteous. Matthew 1:19 proves that one can become righteous--AND without Jesus Christ! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2011 Moderators Posted June 22, 2011 Sonny, I see that you provided words from Paul but not from Jesus Christ to prove your point. Don't you even get a small hint that something smells fishy here? On the Adventist Forum, all of the Bible is equally valid. It's all Holy Scripture. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich Sonny, I see that you provided words from Paul but not from Jesus Christ to prove your point. Don't you even get a small hint that something smells fishy here? On the Adventist Forum, all of the Bible is equally valid. It's all Holy Scripture. Yeah, Rich, you're leaving 53% out. You know what that does? Leads to error. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich Sonny, I see that you provided words from Paul but not from Jesus Christ to prove your point. Don't you even get a small hint that something smells fishy here? On the Adventist Forum, all of the Bible is equally valid. It's all Holy Scripture. If so, then prove it John and Sonny!. Prove your point by using both Paul's words and the words of Jesus. What you have done John is shown everyone that there is indeed two gospels, one from Paul and the correct one from Jesus. You can't have it both ways John. Your false idea that the words of Jesus are the same as Paul's is proven right here and now. Who ever said that on the Adventist Forum, all of the Bible is equally valid must answer for this some day when the rubber meets the road. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 There was no genetic material from either Joseph or Mary in the embryo that became the Son of God. This is nonsense. The Son of God existed before the incarnation. The Son of God was united to our fallen humanity in the womb of Mary. The life produced was the Son of Man. To be a son of mankind means exactly what it states. The fact that Jesus became a male means Jesus became what He was not by Divine right - i.e., human. Before His incarnation as a human being (DNA provided by God Almighty-Father, and the Holy Spirit-Mother), Jesus WAS NOT the Son of God. The being that we now call Jesus was in fact Michael, God in the form a an Archangel (Rev.12:7, Dan. 12:1). Jesus did not become the 'Son of God' until He was born of His surrogate mother, Mary. ) And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.  Luke 1:35. Note that the baby 'WILL BE CALLED', not 'is now called'. But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. Matt. 1:20. Jesus was not the son of Mary and Joseph, the product of 'natural' conception (as Paul say in Rom 1:3). Jesus was the SON of GOD, and became the Son at His birth. This is clear from Scripture. Quote
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 Jesus did not become the 'Son of God' until He was born of His surrogate mother, Mary. No, "the Son of God" refers to Christ's Deity. He has always been God, but at the incarnation "He took upon His sinless nature or sinful nature" Quote
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.  Luke 1:35. Yes, Jesus is the Son of God (Deity), but He was made sin as the Son of Man. Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised before through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness Quote
Dr. Rich Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 In fact, as John317 pointed out, Jesus was the "God" of Abraham and was the one who appeared to Moses in the burning bush as an "Angel of the Lord" (See Ex. 3:2) Michael said of His name "I AM" (See Ex. 3:14.) Jesus said He was the "I AM" in Jn. 17:58 and Jn. 8:24. Quote
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 Jesus did not become the 'Son of God' until He was born of His surrogate mother, Mary. No such thing as a "surrogate" mother in the gospel. Jesus as the Son of Man was born of a woman, born under the law (curse), so He could legally redeem those under the law. Again, God, through the Spirit, united Christ's Divinity with our flesh (humanity) that was in need of redemption. Quote
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 1 Corinthians 3:6 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? Do believers still retain indwelling sin (i.e., the sinful nature)? Yes. First I'll give you the Bible: 1 Cor 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust [Adam], we shall also bear [future tense] the image of the heavenly Man (Jesus). 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be change. Now Ellen White: "The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). Okay, so I have established that in the believer we still retain a sinful nature. We don't have holy flesh - a glorified humanity. And I have also established that God, in the form of the Holy Spirit, dwells in our humanity. Conclusion: The Holy Spirit resides in our sinful humanity and yet He isn't polluted with sin. Likewise, Christ as God, was not polluted with sin for taking upon His Deity our sinful humanity. let's not ignore this, guys.... Quote
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