What Ellen White Has Written About the Godhead

[John317]

I edited your quote John, to say Rev. 22:17 like you intended.

Originally Posted By: John317

A very powerful evidence that the Holy Spirit and Christ are not identitical is found in Rev. 22: 17. If they are the same, it would mean Christ is telling Christ to "come." Of course the truth is that it says the Holy Spirit is telling Christ to "come."

Rev 22:17 is not a call for Christ to come. It is a call for you and me, and anyone else, to come and take the water of life freely. Christ does not need the water of life, because He IS the water of life.

I agree of course that Christ is the water of life and therefore doesn't need that water of which He speaks-- salvation.

But would you say that it is really Christ who is saying, "Come"?

Look at Rev. 22: 20. "He who testifies to these things [Christ] says, 'Surely I am coming quicly.'"

Would you say that both Christ and the Holy Spirit (since they are one and the same person) is saying "I am coming quickly"?

And is the "Spirit of God" referred to in Gen. 1: 2 really another name for Christ?

[John317]

Quote:

Jesus was conceived from the Father and through the Holy Spirit. The Bible isn't telling us that Jesus Christ was conceived through Himself.

I'm not saying that it does. But the Bible DOES say that He came from the Father. The Father through his spirit placed the seed in Mary.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Sure, I agree. The Father through the Holy Spirit placed the seed in Mary's womb.

But is that the same saying that the Father through Christ placed Christ in Mary's womb?

This last line is what we would have to say if the Holy Spirit is Christ Himself.

[John317]

John,

Please allow me to add these two statements from the later writings of Ellen White. I have many more things to add but have little time to post immediately.

Originally Posted By: EGW

We are to manifest the love of Christ through the indwelling of his quickening Spirit. Those who differ with us in faith and doctrine should be treated kindly. They are the property of Christ, and we must meet them in the great day of final account. We shall have to face one another in the Judgment, and behold the record of our thoughts, words, and deeds, not as we have viewed them, but as they were in truth. (YI 12-09-97)

Jesus came to "destroy the works of the devil." "In Him was life," and He says, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." He is "a quickening spirit." 1 John 3:8; John 1:4; 10:10; 1 Cor. 15:45. (DA 270)

You've posted these before and were asked how you understand them to contribute to the subject of this discussion.

[John317]

The "Holy Spirit" does not have a name, a throne, or a position in the "divine chain of command." This is because it is NOT a separate "rational being," but "another" "personage" of the Father and the Son, thus called "the third person of the Godhead."

The name of the Holy Spirit is "the Holy Spirit."

You are wrong to say He does not have a position in the "divine chain of command." God the Father wills; Jesus Christ, the Word, carries out God's will; and the Holy Spirit draws people to Christ and applies the gift of salvation to the lives of individual. In other words, the Holy Spirit manifests Christ to the world. The Holy Spirit does not manifest Himself to the world. As Jesus said, the Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself.

Who is the First Person of the Godhead?

Who is the Second Person of the Godhead?

Is not each Person of the eternal Godhead-- the "three holiest persons of the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--- "the fullness of the Godhead"?

The following is a plain, clear statement by Ellen White on the position of the Holy Spirit in "the divine chain of command":

Quote:

The office of the Holy Spirit is distinctly specified in the words of Christ: "When He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." John 16:8. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. If the sinner responds to the quickening influence of the Spirit, he will be brought to repentance and aroused to the importance of obeying the divine requirements. {AA 52.2}

To the repentant sinner, hungering and thirsting for righteousness, the Holy Spirit reveals the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. "He shall receive of Mine, and shall show it unto you," Christ said. "He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 16:14; 14:26. {AA 52.3}

The Spirit is given as a regenerating agency, to make effectual the salvation wrought by the death of our Redeemer. The Spirit is constantly seeking to draw the attention of men to the great offering that was made on the cross of Calvary, to unfold to the world the love of God, and to open to the convicted soul the precious things of the Scriptures. {AA 52.4}

[John317]

..Christ, Himself is the "Spirit of the living God."

If you are saying that Christ and the Holy Spirit is one and the same person, you are free to believe that or to believe the following statement:

Quote:

The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ's name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality. We may have the Holy Spirit if we ask for it and make it [a] habit to turn to and trust in God rather than in any finite human agent who may make mistakes. {20MR 324.2}

Is Christ the second person of the Godhead?

If so, how can the second person of the Godhead also be the third person of the Godhead?

In the above quote, Ellen White says plainly that the Holy Spirit is a distinct personality from Christ. That is the same as saying the Holy Spirit and Christ are not one and the same. So Ellen White categorically denies that they are the same being. She says there are "three holiest beings of heaven." "There are three living persons of the heavenly trio..." Ev. 617.

What is a living person? Is the Father a living person? Is the Son a living person? Is the Holy Spirit a living person? Yes, unless Ellen White is making things up.

She also says that the Holy Spirit is the personal representative of Christ. Is Christ a representative of Christ? Is Christ His own agent?

In Evangelism 617, the prophet says that the Holy Spirit is a divine person. She says the same about Christ and the Father. All three are divine, living persons.

Is a divine, living, distinct personality-- which is the fullness of the Godhead-- ever a part of another divine, living person who is the fullness of the Godhead? If not, then the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, cannot possibly be the same as the second person of the Godhead.

[John317]

We know that Christ was the active "person" of God in the Old Testament.

Yes, sure; but so was the Holy Spirit an active person of the Godhead during the events narrated in the Old Testament.

As Ellen White says often in various ways, there are three living persons of the eternal Godhead, and one of those three living persons is the Holy Spirit, who is the fullness of the Godhead.

Ellen White says plainly that the Holy Spirit gave Himself to the working out of the plan of redemption. He was one of the three holiest persons of heaven who was "stirred with pity" for the race. See Counsels of Health, page 222.

[John317]

John,

Please allow me to add these two statements from the later writings of Ellen White. I have many more things to add but have little time to post immediately.

Originally Posted By: EGW

We are to manifest the love of Christ through the indwelling of his quickening Spirit. Those who differ with us in faith and doctrine should be treated kindly. They are the property of Christ, and we must meet them in the great day of final account. We shall have to face one another in the Judgment, and behold the record of our thoughts, words, and deeds, not as we have viewed them, but as they were in truth. (YI 12-09-97)

Jesus came to "destroy the works of the devil." "In Him was life," and He says, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." He is "a quickening spirit." 1 John 3:8; John 1:4; 10:10; 1 Cor. 15:45. (DA 270)

Please allow me, also, to post the following apropos quotes:

Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood. {LHU 76.2}

NOTE: According to the above, did God the Father have more of the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in Him than dwelt in Christ?

Remember that she says, "Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense." Since that is true, it means that God the Father was not God in any higher sense than was Christ.

Elsewhere she says Christ was infinite, self-existent, eternal, and omnipotent. Since Christ was (is) omnipotent, is God the Father more all-powerful than Christ? (See Ev. 615)

Does an infinite, self-existent, eternal being have a beginning to His existence?

Quote:

But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness. The two expressions "human" and "divine" were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality. Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His deity could not be lost while He stood faithful and true to His loyalty. Surrounded with sorrow, suffering, and moral pollution, despised and rejected by the people to whom had been intrusted the oracles of heaven, Jesus could yet speak of Himself as the Son of man in heaven. He was ready to take once more His divine glory when His work on earth was done. {5BC 1129.3}

Continued

[John317]

Continued

I think this is one of the most important, and clearest, expressions of Ellen White on the subject of the Holy Spirit:

Quote:

It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Spirit is the Comforter, "the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father." It is plainly declared regarding the Holy Spirit that, in His work of guiding men into all truth, "He shall not speak of Himself." John 15:26; 16:13.

NOTE: This is positive proof that the Holy Spirit and Christ are not one and the same person. Why? Because if the Holy Spirit is Christ, then it cannot be said that the Holy Spirit shall not speak of Himself, for the Holy Spirit speaks of Christ. Therefore, on this view of Christ and the Spirit being one and the same person, the Holy Spirit would be speaking of Himself all the time. It flies in the face of Christ's statement that the Holy Spirit would not speak of Himself.

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{AA 51.3}

The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {AA 52.1}

The office of the Holy Spirit is distinctly specified in the words of Christ: "When He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." John 16:8. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. If the sinner responds to the quickening influence of the Spirit, he will be brought to repentance and aroused to the importance of obeying the divine requirements. {AA 52.2}

To the repentant sinner, hungering and thirsting for righteousness, the Holy Spirit reveals the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. "He shall receive of Mine, and shall show it unto you," Christ said. "He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 16:14; 14:26. {AA 52.3}

The Spirit is given as a regenerating agency, to make effectual the salvation wrought by the death of our Redeemer. The Spirit is constantly seeking to draw the attention of men to the great offering that was made on the cross of Calvary, to unfold to the world the love of God, and to open to the convicted soul the precious things of the Scriptures. {AA 52.4}

Having brought conviction of sin, and presented before the mind the standard of righteousness, the Holy Spirit

53

withdraws the affections from the things of this earth and fills the soul with a desire for holiness. "He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13), the Saviour declared. If men are willing to be molded, there will be brought about a sanctification of the whole being. The Spirit will take the things of God and stamp them on the soul. By His power the way of life will be made so plain that none need err therein. {AA 52.5}

From the beginning, God has been working by His Holy Spirit through human instrumentalities for the accomplishment of His purpose in behalf of the fallen race. This was manifest in the lives of the patriarchs. To the church in the wilderness also, in the time of Moses, God gave His "good Spirit to instruct them." Nehemiah 9:20. And in the days of the apostles He wrought mightily for His church through the agency of the Holy Spirit. The same power that sustained the patriarchs, that gave Caleb and Joshua faith and courage, and that made the work of the apostolic church effective, has upheld God's faithful children in every succeeding age. It was through the power of the Holy Spirit that during the Dark Ages the Waldensian Christians helped to prepare the way for the Reformation. It was the same power that made successful the efforts of the noble men and women who pioneered the way for the establishment of modern missions and for the translation of the Bible into the languages and dialects of all nations and peoples. {AA 53.1}

And today God is still using His church to make known His purpose in the earth. Today the heralds of the cross are going from city to city, and from land to land, preparing

54

the way for the second advent of Christ. The standard of God's law is being exalted. The Spirit of the Almighty is moving upon men's hearts, and those who respond to its influence become witnesses for God and His truth. In many places consecrated men and women may be seen communicating to others the light that has made plain to them the way of salvation through Christ. And as they continue to let their light shine, as did those who were baptized with the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, they receive more and still more of the Spirit's power. Thus the earth is to be lightened with the glory of God. {AA 53.2}

On the other hand, there are some who, instead of wisely improving present opportunities, are idly waiting for some special season of spiritual refreshing by which their ability to enlighten others will be greatly increased. They neglect present duties and privileges, and allow their light to burn dim, while they look forward to a time when, without any effort on their part, they will be made the recipients of special blessing, by which they will be transformed and fitted for service. {AA 54.1}

It is true that in the time of the end, when God's work in the earth is closing, the earnest efforts put forth by consecrated believers under the guidance of the Holy Spirit are to be accompanied by special tokens of divine favor. Under the figure of the early and the latter rain, that falls in Eastern lands at seedtime and harvest, the Hebrew prophets foretold the bestowal of spiritual grace in extraordinary measure upon God's church. The outpouring of the Spirit in the days of the apostles was the beginning of the early, or

55

former, rain, and glorious was the result. To the end of time the presence of the Spirit is to abide with the true church. {AA 54.2}

But near the close of earth's harvest, a special bestowal of spiritual grace is promised to prepare the church for the coming of the Son of man. This outpouring of the Spirit is likened to the falling of the latter rain; and it is for this added power that Christians are to send their petitions to the Lord of the harvest "in the time of the latter rain." In response, "the Lord shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain." "He will cause to come down . . . the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain," Zechariah 10:1; Joel 2:23. {AA 55.1}

But unless the members of God's church today have a living connection with the Source of all spiritual growth, they will not be ready for the time of reaping. Unless they keep their lamps trimmed and burning, they will fail of receiving added grace in times of special need. {AA 55.2}

Those only who are constantly receiving fresh supplies of grace, will have power proportionate to their daily need and their ability to use that power. Instead of looking forward to some future time when, through a special endowment of spiritual power, they will receive a miraculous fitting up for soul winning, they are yielding themselves daily to God, that He may make them vessels meet for His use. Daily they are improving the opportunities for service that lie within their reach. Daily they are witnessing for the Master wherever they may be, whether in some humble sphere of labor in the home, or in a public field of usefulness.

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{AA 55.3}

To the consecrated worker there is wonderful consolation in the knowledge that even Christ during His life on earth sought His Father daily for fresh supplies of needed grace; and from this communion with God He went forth to strengthen and bless others. Behold the Son of God bowed in prayer to His Father! Though He is the Son of God, He strengthens His faith by prayer, and by communion with heaven gathers to Himself power to resist evil and to minister to the needs of men. As the Elder Brother of our race He knows the necessities of those who, compassed with infirmity and living in a world of sin and temptation, still desire to serve Him. He knows that the messengers whom He sees fit to send are weak, erring men; but to all who give themselves wholly to His service He promises divine aid. His own example is an assurance that earnest, persevering supplication to God in faith--faith that leads to entire dependence upon God, and unreserved consecration to His work--will avail to bring to men the Holy Spirit's aid in the battle against sin. {AA 56.1}

Every worker who follows the example of Christ will be prepared to receive and use the power that God has promised to His church for the ripening of earth's harvest. Morning by morning, as the heralds of the gospel kneel before the Lord and renew their vows of consecration to Him, He will grant them the presence of His Spirit, with its reviving, sanctifying power. As they go forth to the day's duties, they have the assurance that the unseen agency of the Holy Spirit enables them to be "laborers together with God." {AA 56.2}

NOTICE THIS:

"He [the Holy Spirit] shall receive of Mine, and shall show it unto you," Christ said. John 16:14

If Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and the same person, this would mean:

Christ shall receive of Christ's, and Christ shall show it unto you.

[John317]

What's this saying?

Quote:

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

The Pre-existent, Self-existent Son of God.--Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God.... In speaking of his pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. He to whose voice the Jews were then listening had been with God as one brought up with Him.--Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1900. {Ev 615.2}

He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. . . . He is the eternal, self-existent Son.--Manuscript 101, 1897. {Ev 615.3}

What does "self-existent" mean? Christ is "self-existent".

Here is the definition from the 1828 Webster's Dictionary:

SELF-EXISTENCE, n. [self and existence.] Inherent existence; the existence possossed by virtue of a being's own nature, and independent of any other being or cause; an attribute peculiar to God.

SELF-EXISTENT, a. Existing by its own nature or essense, independent of any other cause. God is the only self-existent being.

What do you think?

Did Christ promise to send Himself after He ascended to heaven? Or did Christ promise to send His personal representative?

[Guest]

Sure, I agree. The Father through the Holy Spirit placed the seed in Mary's womb.

But is that the same saying that the Father through Christ placed Christ in Mary's womb?

This last line is what we would have to say if the Holy Spirit is Christ Himself.

Go back and read my post that you quoted again. You SHOULD notice that I said "the Father through HIS spirit". Not the spirit of Christ.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit:

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

The name of the Holy Spirit is "the Holy Spirit."

[...]

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

You are wrong to say He does not have a position in the "divine chain of command." God the Father wills; Jesus Christ, the Word, carries out God's will; and the Holy Spirit draws people to Christ and applies the gift of salvation to the lives of individual. In other words, the Holy Spirit manifests Christ to the world. The Holy Spirit does not manifest Himself to the world. As Jesus said, the Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself.

[...]

John,

This serves an example of what my interpersonal communications professor would have called "by-passing." Let me provide what I consider "the Divine chain of command." You will find the Holy Spirit (as a "rational person") is not included.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor. 11:3)

The Chain:

1) God (obviously, the Father)

2) Christ (obviously, the Son)

3) Man (head of the household - "house-band")

4) Woman (queen of the house)

[Pastor_Chick]

I wish to reason from the Scriptures in this post. (I am assuming we all accept the intuitive "rule" that Ellen White's teaching must conform to the Bible and not vice versa.)

Using the OT and NT Scriptures for illustration...

OLD TESTAMENT:

The SPIRIT of man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the innermost parts of his being. (Prov. 20:27)

5397. neshamah, nesh-aw-maw'; fr. H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concr.) an animal:--blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: John317

Sure, I agree. The Father through the Holy Spirit placed the seed in Mary's womb.

But is that the same saying that the Father through Christ placed Christ in Mary's womb?

This last line is what we would have to say if the Holy Spirit is Christ Himself.

Go back and read my post that you quoted again. You SHOULD notice that I said "the Father through HIS spirit". Not the spirit of Christ.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit:

The matter is rather a simple one AS the Trinity was considered ALIEN to Seventh-day Adventism....

...It does not take much study into the issue to prove it.

The cash cow of the denomination was destroyed "by fire" and to help raise money for the rebuild....

...Dr. Kellogg was ASKED to write a book which would be sold.

...The cash from this book going toward the cost of re-building the SDA Sanitarium.

Aside from Dr Kellogg being one of the most well known ( if NOT the most well known Doctors of his time )....

...He was an apologetic "Gatling Gun" for the SDA denomination.

...Kellogg was WELL KNOWN to take on all comers who spoke against SDA teaching.

...And the Denomination requested Kellogg do this in print.

In the November 25, 1880 issue of the Review and Herald Dr. Kellogg had an extended debate....

...With another individual ( NOT SDA ) who was taking the SDA's to task over the immortality of the soul.

...AND the meaning of the word "BEING".

The individual debating against the SDA position made a remark that Kellogg's Trinitarianism was causing the Dr problems....

...To which Kellogg responds:

Dr. Kellogg, R&H, November 25, 1880

Our reviewer then goes on at some length to show that according to our view the death of Christ was but a human sacrifice, and finally concludes, " Hence the Doctor's theory claims that the essence of God, .the Supreme Being, who created and upholds all things from the beginning, was made into corruptible flesh, was killed by men," etc. The above statement is entirely correct, with a slight addition; the insertion of the words, " does not " just before the word " claim " will make the statement correct. As it stands, it is

as wide a departure from the truth as it can be. The only grounds upon which our reviewer could be justified in making such a statement would be the supposition on his part that WE believe in the doctrine of the trinity; but he very well knows, from positions taken and arguments used in previous articles, that WE do not agree with him on THIS subject any better ihan on that of the nature of the soul. We believe in but one Deity, God, who is a unity, not a compound 'being. We think the Bible as well as common sense sustains this view. Says Eld. W., "'His trinitarianism' seems to shackle him much." We repel the charge of " trinitarianism " without the slightest hesitation. WE do NOT believe in a triune God, as before remarked. And WE will not, as did our reviewer in a. former article, leave the reader in doubt as to OUR position on this point. WE are utterly at a loss to comprehend how our reviewer could have blundered so strangely as to suppose US to share in so gross an. error as WE believe the orthodox doctrine of the trinity to be.

Now, Kellogg wrote THAT back when he was advocating the SDA faith as taught by the Pioneers...

...And confirmed by Ellen White.

Between THEN and the time the fire took out the SDA cash cow...

...Kellogg adopted some teachings ALIEN to SDAism.

...We know this because Kellogg himself said so AND.

...He was WARNED to NOT put any of those "new ideas" in the book he was to write.

To boil this down into a nutshell Kellogg stated that despite all his training in SDAism....

...That he had become to believe in the Trinity.

A.G. Daniels writes to W.C. White, Oct 1903

He [Kellogg] then stated that his former views regarding the trinity had stood in his way of making a clear and absolutely correct statement BUT that within a short time he had come to believe in the trinity and could now see pretty clearly where all the difficulty was and believed that he could clear up the matter satisfactorily.”

This is where Kellogg got himself into hot water with Ellen along with the rest of the leadership....

...In SDA view God & Christ both had "PERSONALITIES", aka, bodies with hands, eyes, rectum, etc.

...Kellogg was saying in his new book that "God" held ALL things together through the Holy Spirit.

...Which Kellogg was NOW claiming to "BE GOD" as much as the Father and Son.

This was considered an attack on the SDA doctrine AND on Ellen White....

...Because questioned Ellen's prophetic utterances on where the PERSONALITY of God actually was.

Ellen White, Sept 1903

The new theories in regard to God and Christ, as brought out in "The Living Temple", are not in harmony with the teaching of Christ. The Lord Jesus came to this world to represent the Father. He did not represent God as an essence pervading nature, but as a personal being. Christians should bear in mind that God has a personality as verily as has Christ

Anyone familiar with the time hack knows that one of Kelloggs arguments that the Holy Spirit was a "BEING"...

...Was that Ellen White used the word "HE" to describe the Holy Spirit.

The following should settle the question once and for all.

Signs of the Times, 1912, Vol 39 # 32

3829 — The Holy Spirit n Personality?

Question:

Can't we say that the Holy Spirit is a

personality, as long as the personal pronoun

is attributed to it? T. A. Z.

Answer:

[color:#333300]The use of the personal pronoun is not of itself proof that the Holy Spirit is a personality, and yet the work of the Spirit is the work of a personality. By the Spirit both the Father and the Son come personally to every soul that receives the Spirit. In that wonderful sense which no human being can comprehend, the Spirit comes to each soul as a personality. And yet it does not have what we would call human personality of being in one place only at one time, that is, such personality as has our Lord Himself — in one place as He is in no other place. The Holy Spirit may be in any number of places at one and the same time, bringing the special presence of God in each of those places. In the office of the "Signs of the Times" there are fourteen different telephones all connecting with the manager. The manager may connect all these with him at one and the same time. He could issue a general order so that the foreman of each department could hear his voice at the same time. In a way he is personally present in every department. Every department hears his voice. The marvelous invention of the telephone makes him present in fifteen different places at the same time. So it is that God's Spirit makes the Father and the Son present in as many different places as God may direct, at one and the same time. We know somewhat of the working. We understand how it is to some extent of the Lord's ways and methods. We see the effects, but we know almost nothing of the nature and the power that Infinity uses to communicate with man. Let us be willing to leave it there. In some instances the Spirit is represented as the great life of God. In some it is spoken of as a power that is poured out and shed forth. To the individual it comes as the representative of the personal God. Therefore it may be spoken of as a personality, and looking at it from another view-point, as not a personality.

In case anyone missed it the Holy Spirit was God even less than Christ was "GOD".....

...But I've demonstrated all of this previously.

[Pastor_Chick]

Gus,

Thank you for the contribution. I am educated by some of the references that I had not seen previously.

Oh, perhaps you would like to help me on the other thread where I have asked Trinitarians to explain the "creation of man" and how it reflected "the image and likeness of God."

I honestly do not understand how a Trinitarian would fit all of it together into a logical "package." If you can do it, I might be further educated. So far, none of the "Adventist Trinitarians" will touch it.

[Gustave]

Gus,

Thank you for the contribution. I am educated by some of the references that I had not seen previously.

Oh, perhaps you would like to help me on the other thread where I have asked Trinitarians to explain the "creation of man" and how it reflected "the image and likeness of God."

I honestly do not understand how a Trinitarian would fit all of it together into a logical "package." If you can do it, I might be further educated. So far, none of the "Adventist Trinitarians" will touch it.

What is the specific questions you have about the Trinity?

...The reason the SDA's don't answer is simply because they are inbetween a rock and hard place.

..They claim they believe in the Trinity yet they can't and believe in Ellen White.

...It's simply a shibboleth.

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

What is the specific questions you have about the Trinity?

[...]

Gus,

I opened a thread here in the Town Hall that is easy to find. It carries the title of "Trinitarian explanation of the creation of man - What is it?" I was assuming the SDA brethren would jump on that one.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

[...]

What is the specific questions you have about the Trinity?

[...]

Gus,

I opened a thread here in the Town Hall that is easy to find. It carries the title of "Trinitarian explanation of the creation of man - What is it?" I was assuming the SDA brethren would jump on that one.

Done.

[Pastor_Chick]

Since there has been some discussion on this thread about the SDA Church's stand concerning the Trinity doctrine around the time of Ellen White's death in 1915, I thought to introduce this page from the "secret" 1919 Bible Conference. It is apparent to me that no changes had occurred from what the pioneers held to be truth. Anyone interested in the facts surrounding this conference may access all of it online.

On the page I have provided here, you will see the GC President A. G. Daniells say, "We are not going to take a vote...but we can think."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Sure, I agree. The Father through the Holy Spirit placed the seed in Mary's womb.

But is that the same saying that the Father through Christ placed Christ in Mary's womb?

This last line is what we would have to say if the Holy Spirit is Christ Himself.

Go back and read my post that you quoted again. You SHOULD notice that I said "the Father through HIS spirit". Not the spirit of Christ.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit:

If we say that Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and the same person, wouldn't the Father's Spirit be Christ Himself? Or do you distinguish between the Father's Spirit and the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit is called by various names, including "the Spirit of God," "the Spirit of Jesus," "the Spirit of Jehovah," "the Spirit of the Lord," "the Spirit of truth," etc.

A vigilant, determined leader was in command of the forces of darkness, and the followers of Christ could battle for the right only through the help that God, by His Spirit, would give them. {AA 31.1}

NOTE: Here "His Spirit" is the Holy Spirit, is it not? So, in your statement, isn't "His spirit" the Holy Spirit?

The promise of the Holy Spirit is not limited to any age or to any race. Christ declared that the divine influence of His Spirit was to be with His followers unto the end. From the Day of Pentecost to the present time, the Comforter has been sent to all who have yielded themselves fully to the Lord and to His service. To all who have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, the Holy Spirit has come as a counselor, sanctifier, guide, and witness. The more closely believers have walked with God, the more clearly and powerfully have they testified of their Redeemer's love and of His saving grace. The men and women who through the long centuries of persecution and trial enjoyed a large measure of the presence of the Spirit in their lives, have stood as signs and wonders in the world. Before angels and men they have revealed the transforming power of redeeming love. {AA 49.2}

NOTE: "His Spirit" in the above quote is the Spirit of Christ, and is the Holy Spirit. "His Spirit" is not the same as saying "Christ." Do you agree?

So mightily can God work when men give themselves up to the control of His Spirit. {AA 49.1}

NOTE: "His Spirit" refers to God's Spirit. Do you agree that this is a reference to the Holy Spirit?

The promise of the Holy Spirit is not limited to any age or to any race. Christ declared that the divine influence of His Spirit was to be with His followers unto the end. From the Day of Pentecost to the present time, the Comforter has been sent to all who have yielded themselves fully to the Lord and to His service. To all who have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, the Holy Spirit has come as a counselor, sanctifier, guide, and witness. The more closely believers have walked with God, the more clearly and powerfully have they testified of their Redeemer's love and of His saving grace. {AA 49.2}

NOTE: Do you agree that in the above quote, "His Spirit" refers to Christ's Spirit and that this is the same as "the Holy Spirit"?

It seems to me that these quotes show clearly that there is no difference between "God's Spirit" and "Christ's Spirit," and that they are all referring to the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Godhead. Do you agree with this?

As in humility they submitted to the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, they received of the fullness of the Godhead and were fashioned in the likeness of the divine. {AA 49.3}

The lapse of time has wrought no change in Christ's parting promise to send the Holy Spirit as His representative....If all were willing, all would be filled with the Spirit. Wherever the need of the Holy Spirit is a matter little thought of, there is seen spiritual drought, spiritual darkness, spiritual declension and death. {AA 50.1}

NOTE: The Holy Spirit is not Christ Himself but is Christ's representative. It is both "His Spirit" and "the Holy Spirit."

Below are some quotes of Ellen White which illustrate all the various ways in which she describes the Holy Spirit as belonging to both the Father and the Son. I believe they prove that Christ is not the Holy Spirit: --

During the patriarchal age the influence of the Holy Spirit had often been revealed in a marked manner, but never in its fullness. Now, in obedience to the word of the Saviour, the disciples offered their supplications for this gift, and in heaven Christ added His intercession. He claimed the gift of the Spirit, that He might pour it upon His people. {AA 37.3}

"It is expedient for you that I go away," Christ had said to His disciples; "for If I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you." "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come." John 16:7, 13.

Christ's ascension to heaven was the signal that His followers were to receive the promised blessing. For this they were to wait before they entered upon their work. When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as this ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents, and Christ was indeed glorified, even with the glory which He had with the Father from all eternity. The Pentecostal outpouring was Heaven's communication that the Redeemer's inauguration was accomplished. According to His promise He had sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to His followers as a token that He had, as priest and king, received all authority in heaven and on earth, and was the Anointed One over His people. {AA 38,39}

Yet the Lord would not leave Saul to be placed in a position of trust without divine enlightenment. He was to have a new calling, and the Spirit of the Lord came upon him. The effect was that he was changed into a new man. The Lord gave Saul a new spirit, other thoughts, other aims and desires, than he had previously had. This enlightenment, with the spiritual knowledge of God, was to bind his will to the will of Jehovah. {CTr 142.5}

And we should also see angels of God guarding us from their power; for God's watchful eye is ever over Israel for good, and He will protect and save His people, if they put their trust in Him. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him. {CET 170.1}

The Spirit of God rested upon Moses, and he led the people in a triumphant anthem of thanksgiving, the earliest and one of the most sublime that are known to man. . . . {CC 93.2}

"David the son of Jesse saith,

And the man who was raised on high saith,

The anointed of the God of Jacob,

And the sweet psalmist of Israel:

The Spirit of Jehovah spake by me: . . . . "

Great truths which have been neglected and unappreciated for ages, will be revealed by the Spirit of God, and new meaning will flash out of familiar texts. Every page will be illuminated by the Spirit of truth. The Bible is not sealed but unsealed. The most precious truths are revealed; the living oracles are heard by wondering ears, and the consciences of men are aroused into action.--TSS 30. {CSW 34.3}

God had chosen Moses, and had put His Spirit upon him; and Miriam and Aaron, by their murmurings, were guilty of disloyalty, not only to their appointed leader, but to God Himself. The seditious whisperers were summoned to the tabernacle, and brought face to face with Moses. "And Jehovah came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam." {DG 33.2}

And the Holy Spirit through the prophet Isaiah declares: "To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto Him? . . .{DA 282.2}

Not only were the students taught the duty of prayer, but they were taught how to pray, how to approach their Creator, how to exercise faith in Him, and how to understand and obey the teachings of His Spirit. Sanctified intellect brought forth from the treasure house of God things new and old, and the Spirit of God was manifested in prophecy and sacred song. {Ed 47.2}

He knew that the gospel of the kingdom would be preached to all nations for a witness; He knew that truth armed with the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit, would conquer in the battle with evil, and that the bloodstained banner would one day wave triumphantly over His followers. {AA 20.2}

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father." John 14:12. By this, Christ did not mean that the disciples would make more exalted exertions than He had made, but that their work would have greater magnitude. He did not refer merely to miracle working, but to all that would take place under the agency of the Holy Spirit. "When the Comforter is come," He said, "whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me: and ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning." John 15:26, 27. {AA 22.1}

[John317]

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit:

This is best and most accurately translated "God is Spirit" [Gk ho theos pneuma]. The verb and the indefinite article is not a part of that sentence. Therefore God is not merely one spirit among many others, but is spirit-itself. The entire Godhead, that is, the Deity, is spirit in His very essence.

Ellen White says the Father is the fullness of the Deity; the Son is the fullness of the Deity; and the Holy Spirit is the fullness of the Deity. "There are three living persons of the heavenly trio." Ev. 615. "The three living persons" of the [eternal] Godhead are referred to as "three great personal dignitaries of heaven" (SDA BC, vol. 7, page 959, par: 8). Elsewhere she also refers to them as "three holiest Beings in heaven" and "three great Worthies in heaven" (Sermons & Talks, vol. 1, page 367, 363). She said she prays to all three of them (Ibid., 368). She also often sung praises to the "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost," and urged all SDAs to do the same often.

Question: Does the eternal Godhead change in its numbers of persons? If it consists of three persons now, was there a time when it consisted of two? (There are some people who believe this!)

[Gustave]

Since there has been some discussion on this thread about the SDA Church's stand concerning the Trinity doctrine around the time of Ellen White's death in 1915, I thought to introduce this page from the "secret" 1919 Bible Conference. It is apparent to me that no changes had occurred from what the pioneers held to be truth. Anyone interested in the facts surrounding this conference may access all of it online.

On the page I have provided here, you will see the GC President A. G. Daniells say, "We are not going to take a vote...but we can think."

It's simply saying what anyone who has looked into the issue was saying...

...Ellen White was NEVER supportative of the Trinity.

...When the GC president was "ARIAN" and all prior to him were ARIAN or semi Arian.

AND

The only guy within the time hack of Ellen's life who expressed a "new" belief IN the Trinity was KICKED OUT...

...That should really be enough.

...I mean REALLY!

[John317]

It's simply saying what anyone who has looked into the issue was saying...

...Ellen White was NEVER supportative of the Trinity.

Here's the evidence:

Ellen White says the Father is the fullness of the Deity; the Son is the fullness of the Deity; and the Holy Spirit is the fullness of the Deity. "There are three living persons of the heavenly trio." Ev. 615. "The three living persons" of the [eternal] Godhead are referred to as "three great personal dignitaries of heaven" (SDA BC, vol. 7, page 959, par: 8). Elsewhere she also refers to them as "three holiest Beings in heaven" and "three great Worthies in heaven" (Sermons & Talks, vol. 1, page 367, 363). She said she prays to all three of them (Ibid., 368). She also often sung praises to the "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost," and urged all SDAs to do the same often.

She didn't believe in all the things some other Christians say about the Trinity, and she never used the word, "Trinity," but her statements clearly show that she believed in the Trinity as the SDA Church believes and explains it today.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...When the GC president was "ARIAN" and all prior to him were ARIAN or semi Arian.

AND

The only guy within the time hack of Ellen's life who expressed a "new" belief IN the Trinity was KICKED OUT...

...That should really be enough.

...I mean REALLY!

All that letter proves is what Daniells believed and felt at that time. You can't blame Ellen White for what other people believed. Uriah Smith believed for a long time that Christ was a created being, but Ellen White never wrote this.

Go by what she herself wrote and said.

For instance, read the following quotes, which will give you a good idea of what she believed:

Quote:

The Father and the Son each have a personality... Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God... there never was a time when when [Christ] was not in close fellowship with the Eternal God... [Christ] was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent... [Christ] is the eternal, self-existent Son....[Christ] had [for]ever stood at the right hand of the Father... Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense... It was Christ who from the bush on Mount Horeb spoke to Moses, 'I AM THAT I AM'.... [Christ] had announced Himself to be the self-existent One...The Holy Spirit is a person... The Holy Spirit has a personality... the Holy Spirit..is as much a person as God is a person... He must also be a divine person... The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead... The three great powers of heaven are working... The three great powers in heaven are witnesses; they are invisible but present... The eternal heavenly dignitaries-- God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit-- arming thems [the disciples] with more than mortal energy,.. would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the three holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men.... We are to cooperate with the three highest powers in heaven,-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,-- and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are pledged to cooperate with sanctified human instrumentalities... The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption...The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism to receive the candidates who have renounced the world... The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight... The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested... The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead...In whose name are we baptized? In the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost-- the three highest powers in the heavenly courts. They pledge themselves in our behalf... You went down into the water in the name of the three great Worthies in heaven-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit... There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven...You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest Beings in heaven who are able to keep you from falling...When I feel oppressed and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great worthies....

These things were clearly not written by a non-Trinitarian or anti-Trinitarian.

[John317]

For the inspired commentary:

Originally Posted By: EGW

"And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." The love of the Father, no less than of the Son, is the fountain of salvation for the lost race. Said Jesus to His disciples before He went away: "I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: for the Father Himself loveth you." John 16:26, 27. God was "in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. And in the ministration in the sanctuary above, "the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. (GC 416, 417)

The fact that God the Father and Christ the eternal Word of God made an agreement together doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit was not part of the agreement.

Read the following statements by Ellen White:

"The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and THE HOLY SPIRIT GAVE THEMSELVES TO THE WORKING OUT OF THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided [obviously by all "three living persons of the heavenly trio"] that Christ, the only begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love?" Counsels on Health, page 222.

We need to take into consideration ALL that Ellen White says on the topic. When we do that, it is crystal clear that the Holy Spirit also gave Himself to the working out of the plan of redemption. He is one of the three living persons of the heavenly trio.

Therefore:

1) Did the Father give Himself?

2) Did the Son give Himself?

3) Did the Holy Spirit give Himself?

The answer to all three questions is, Yes. Ellen White is clear that all three of these "holiest persons of heaven" "gave themselves". If in doubt, read it again.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

[...]

You are wrong to say He does not have a position in the "divine chain of command." God the Father wills; Jesus Christ, the Word, carries out God's will; and the Holy Spirit draws people to Christ and applies the gift of salvation to the lives of individual. In other words, the Holy Spirit manifests Christ to the world. The Holy Spirit does not manifest Himself to the world. As Jesus said, the Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself.

[...]

John,

This serves an example of what my interpersonal communications professor would have called "by-passing." Let me provide what I consider "the Divine chain of command." You will find the Holy Spirit (as a "rational person") is not included.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor. 11:3)

The Chain:

1) God (obviously, the Father)

2) Christ (obviously, the Son)

3) Man (head of the household - "house-band")

4) Woman (queen of the house)

So what if the Holy Spirit is not in what you call "the chain of command"?

Does your reasoning on this do away with all the clear statements in the Bible and in the Spirit of prophecy showing that the Holy Spirit is a person, has a personality, and a distinct personality, and is one of three living persons of the eternal Godhead? Does your reasoning do away with the following statements:

Quote:

The Father and the Son each have a personality... Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God... there never was a time when when [Christ] was not in close fellowship with the Eternal God... [Christ] was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent... [Christ] is the eternal, self-existent Son....[Christ] had [for]ever stood at the right hand of the Father... Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense... It was Christ who from the bush on Mount Horeb spoke to Moses, 'I AM THAT I AM'.... [Christ] had announced Himself to be the self-existent One...The Holy Spirit is a person... The Holy Spirit has a personality... the Holy Spirit..is as much a person as God is a person... He must also be a divine person... The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead... The three great powers of heaven are working... The three great powers in heaven are witnesses; they are invisible but present... The eternal heavenly dignitaries-- God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit-- arming thems [the disciples] with more than mortal energy,.. would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the three holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men.... We are to cooperate with the three highest powers in heaven,-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,-- and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are pledged to cooperate with sanctified human instrumentalities... The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption...The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism to receive the candidates who have renounced the world... The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight... The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested... The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead...In whose name are we baptized? In the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost-- the three highest powers in the heavenly courts. They pledge themselves in our behalf... You went down into the water in the name of the three great Worthies in heaven-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit... There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven...You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest Beings in heaven who are able to keep you from falling...When I feel oppressed and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great worthies....

Notice that Ellen White says the Father is the fullness of the Deity; the Son is the fullness of the Deity; and the Holy Spirit is the fullness of the Deity. "There are three living persons of the heavenly trio." Ev. 615. "The three living persons" of the [eternal] Godhead are referred to as "three great personal dignitaries of heaven" (SDA BC, vol. 7, page 959, par: 8). Elsewhere she also refers to them as "three holiest Beings in heaven" and "three great Worthies in heaven" (Sermons & Talks, vol. 1, page 367, 363). She said she prays to all three of them (Ibid., 368). She also often sung praises to the "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost," and urged all SDAs to do the same often.

What you are doing is reasoning yourself out of believing and accepting the clear statements in order to stand stiffly by your opinions and conjectures about things that Ellen White and the Bible do not say. Go by what they do say, not by what you think they should say.