What Ellen White Has Written About the Godhead

[Parade Orange]

DR RICH u quote me then u address JOHN 317 in your post

we both are gay so i understand why u got confused since we all look alike

[im the younger and shorter one BTW]

and im sorry if i have offended you in my brashness

i dont understand your thinking and i was incredulous and it showed up in my rash posting to u

forgive me i will hopefully be more gentle and respectful in my dealings with u in the future

[phkrause]

DR RICH u quote me then u address JOHN 317 in your post

we both are gay so i understand why u got confused since we all look alike

[im the younger and shorter one BTW]

and im sorry if i have offended you in my brashness

i dont understand your thinking and i was incredulous and it showed up in my rash posting to u

forgive me i will hopefully be more gentle and respectful in my dealings with u in the future

PO your posts were right on.

[Parade Orange]

thanku PKRAUSE for saying that

i hope DR RICH will concur

[Guest]

Dr. Rich will never concur. He has never concurred in his whole life.

[ClubV12]

Parade Orange says,

"i dont understand your thinking..."

Your not alone on that thought! Few do... :)

[Pastor_Chick]

See what you make of this EGW piece from 1906.

I will reserve my comments for later.

[Gustave]

Just like the Christ was ONE with His disciples - one in unity and purpose AND....

...It was THUS that "God" and Christ were ONE.

...By default that makes the disciples AS MUCH ONE with God as the Holy Spirit.

...Which is exactly what SDA teaching was at that time = the Holy Spirit was NOT God.

[Gustave]

See what you make of this EGW piece from 1906.

I will reserve my comments for later.

Very interesting but fully expected.

[John317]

Sure glad that John317 was standing there when Jesus called the Holy Spirit "he"! This is totally nuts! You and I don't have the original words written by John do we? I can show you where ALL PEOPLE, both male and female were called "MEN", so please get off your soapbox! Perhaps you need to sink your teeth into some real meat!

In the book of John, it tells us that Christ referred to the Holy Spirit as "He," that is, Christ used the masculine pronoun. I thought you trusted and believed the testimony of the apostle John. See John 16: 13, 14.

The point here is that whenever Christ or other Bible writers chose to refer to the Holy Spirit by a personal pronoun, they did so by either a neuter or a masculine gender, NEVER by a the feminine gender.

[John317]

=====

Yes, I've been aware of this manuscript for several years and have seen it online before. The Ellen G. White Estate website has made it available for all the world to see. They are not trying to hide anything.

But how do you believe this changes anything, if at all?

Notice that she says elsewhere a number of times that the Holy Spirit is a "person," a "divine person," etc.

“The Holy Spirit always leads to the Written WORD. The Holy Spirit *IS A PERSON*; for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God.” (Ellen G. White, Manuscript Releases, Volume 7, MR No. 487, 1906.

The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from >the three<>>PERSONS<<—The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."—Manuscript 57, 1900 (6 Bible Commentary, 1074).

"The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by >the power of God in>>the third<>PERSON<< of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit<."—Series A, no. 10, 37 (Evangelism, 617).

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

THEREFORE IT IS WELL ESTABLISHED THAT ELLEN WHITE BELIEVED AND TAUGHT THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON.

[Dr. Rich]

John317, There are hundreds of places in the book of John where Jesus said the word "he" and the meaning was for both he and she. Try John 6:46,51 for now. This who issue is nuts. PO was correct in that what ever the Holy Spirit is, He, It or She is the way one has unity with God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son of God. It's not worth debating because none of us know as was also pointed out by PO. Thanks and I too appoligize for the harsh words.

[John317]

[quote name="GustaveEllen White, 1888 Great Controversy 493.1

Christ the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father,--one in nature, in character, and in purpose,--the ONLY being in ALL the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. By Christ, the Father wrought in the creation of all heavenly beings. "By him were all things created, that are in Heaven, . . . whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers;" [COL. 1:16."] and to Christ, equally with the Father, ALL Heaven gave allegiance

Ok John, tell me what you believe Ellen meant when she said...

...God and Christ were NOT one in Person?

...And the "unity" of "GOD" & Christ does not destroy the personality of EITHER GOD or Christ.

It obviously means that the Father and Christ are not one and the same persons. She is saying the same thing that we find in John 1: 1. God and Christ have the same nature, character, and purpose, but are not the same person or the same Being.

How can this NOT be understood?

[Dr. Rich]

I am with you on this John317. It is very clear to me too.

[John317]

There are hundreds of places in the book of John where Jesus said the word "he" and the meaning was for both he and she. Try John 6:46,51 for now.

Now you are talking about the use of "he" as a third personal pronoun when it is referring to humans in general.

That's a totally different subject. In the verses we're discussing here, we're talking about personal pronouns that refer to particular individuals or persons.

In John 6: 46, 51, it is best translated as "anyone" or "one," not "he" or "she."

It is the same in English, when we use "he" in general reference to to people as a whole. No one thinks that such a sentence does not refer to women. Today it is common in such instances to say "he/she."

But that is different from the verses in which Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit.

Would you say that if I am talking about you, it doesn't matter if I say "she" or not? It makes a big difference, doesn't it?

Would it be OK if when we refer to Christ, we say "she walked on water"? Obviously not. The same principle applies to the Holy Spirit. We're not free to change genders when referring to the three persons of the Godhead just because we feel like it. Some indeed do it--- as in "God our Mother" or "Christ the daughter of God"--- but that doesn't mean it's right or that the Bible supports them when they do it.

[John317]

Ellen White ( 1905]

Christ is one with the Father, but Christ and God ARE two distinct personages. Read the prayer of Christ in the seventeenth chapter of John, and you will find this point clearly brought out. How earnestly the Saviour prayed that his disciples might be one with him as he is one with the Father. But the unity that is to exist between Christ and his followers does not destroy the personality of either. They are to be one with him AS he is one with the Father. By this unity they are to make it plain to the world that God sent his Son to save sinners. The oneness of Christ&#146;s followers with him is to be the great, unmistakable proof that God did indeed send his Son into the world to save sinners. But a loose, lax religion leaves the world bewildered and confused.

You did catch that, right?

...Christ's followers are ONE with Christ AS CHRIST IS ONE WITH GOD.

...It's saying the same thing as the other quote I provided you said.

How is Ellen White saying anything here that is different from what Christ was saying to His disciples? Aren't the disciples of Christ to be one with each other and one with Christ?

But yet aren't we distinct persons? Being "one with each other" doesn't mean we lose our individual identities, does it? Being "one" with each other or one with Christ means we have the same purposes and the same thoughts. Through the Holy Spirit, we are also to be of one nature so far as humans can be. Of course that doesn't mean we become Deity, but we can share in Christ's divine nature, in terms of the attributes and qualities such as love, etc. See 2 Peter 1: 4.

[John317]

:-)

[John317]

...If you had read everything Ellen had said on this subject you would be agreeing with me.

You mean like these sorts of statements?

Quote:

">>The three<powers of the Godhead<<,>the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit<, are pledged to be their strength and their efficiency in their new life in Christ Jesus."—Australian Union Conference Record, October 7, 1907.

"We are to co-operate with>the three< highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God."—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, 51 and (Evangelism, 617).

The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin."—Manuscript 145, 1901. (Evangelism, 616).

"The work of salvation is not a small matter, but so vast that the highest authorities are taken hold of by the expressed faith of the human agent. The eternal Godhead—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost—is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent."—Upward Look, 148.

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, >the three< holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men to overcome the powers of darkness. All the facilities of heaven are pledged to those who by their baptismal vows have entered into a covenant with God."—5 Bible Commentary, 1110. (Manuscript 92,1901).

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism, to receive the candidates who have renounced the world and have received Christ into the soul temple. These candidates have entered into the family of God, and their names are inscribed in the Lamb’s book of life."—6 Bible Commentary, 1075. (Manuscript 27, 1900).

"When we have accepted Christ, and in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit have pledged ourselves to serve God, the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit— >the three< dignitaries and powers of heaven—pledge themselves that every facility shall be given to us if we carry out our baptismal vows to "come out from among them, and be . . separate . . and touch not the unclean thing."— 6 Bible Commentary, 1075. (Manuscript 85, 1901).

"Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit . . Have you been born again? Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then cooperate with >the three< great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf."—7 Bible Commentary, 908; Signs, June 19, 1091 (Manuscript 11, 1901).

"The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from >the three<->>PERSONS<<—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."—6 Bible Commentary, 1074.

"The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by >the power of God in>>the third<>PERSON<< of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit<."—Series A, no. 10, 37 (Evangelism, 617).

"Evil had been accumulating for centuries, and could only be restrained and resisted by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, >>the third Person<<>of the Godhead<, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power."—10 Manuscript Releases, 63 (Letter 8, February 6, 1896; Series A, No. 10, 25; Testimonies to Ministers, 392,)

>"There are>>THREE LIVING PERSONS<<of the heavenly>>TRIO<<; in the name of >these three< great powers—The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—Those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ."—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, 63. (Evangelism, 615.

" ‘If a man love Me. He will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with Him."—Fundamentals of Christian Education, 125. (Manuscript Releases, 19, 153).

"Keep yourselves where >the three< great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, can be your efficiency. These powers work with the one who gives himself unreservedly to God. The strength of heaven is at the command of God’s believing ones."—In Heavenly Places, 176 (4 Signs, 512; Southern Watchman, February 23, 1904 ).

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost supply the power that makes him victorious in every conflict with the prince of darkness."—6 Manuscript Releases, 167 (Letter 200, December 15, 1902).

"They pledge themselves to devote their lives to God’s service; and >the three< great powers in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, pledge Themselves to cooperate with them, to work in and through them."—6 Manuscript Releases, 166 (Manuscript 118, October 6, 1902).

">The three< highest powers in the universe are pledged to labor with those who will seek to save the lost."—5 Review, 533, col. 2.

"In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, man is laid in his watery grave, buried with Christ in baptism, and raised from the water to live the new life of loyalty to God >The three< great powers in heaven are witnesses; they are invisible but present."—Manuscript 57, 1900 (6 Bible Commentary, 1074).

"If man, in acquiring the Christian graces, works on the plan of addition, God has pledged Himself to work in his behalf upon the plan of multiplication. "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord." The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from >the three<>>PERSONS<<—The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."—Manuscript 57, 1900 (6 Bible Commentary, 1074).

"At our baptism we pledged ourselves to break all connection with Satan and his agencies, and to put heart and mind and soul into the work of extending the kingdom of God. All heaven is working for this object. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are pledged to cooperate with sanctified human instrumentalities. If we are true to our vow, there is opened to us a door of communication with heaven—a door that no human hand or satanic agency can close."—Review May 17, 1906. (6 Bible Commentary, 1075.

"On that occasion [baptism] we pledge ourselves, in the presence of >the three< great heavenly Powers, to come out from the world and be separate."—6 Manuscript Release 167 (Manuscript 130, October 27, 1902).

"When you took these vows, you pledged yourself, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, that you would live unto God, and you have no right to break this pledge. The help of >the three< great Powers is placed at your disposal."—5 Review, 143 (Receiving Christ, 178).

"Baptized into the>>>THREEFOLD NAME<<< . . at the very entrance of their Christian life . . the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism."—6 Bible Commentary, 1075.

"Those who submit to the solemn rite of baptism pledge themselves to devote their lives to God’s service; and >the three< great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, pledge themselves to cooperate with them, to work in and through them."—4 Signs, 282 (March 11, 1903).

">The three< great powers of heaven pledged Themselves to cooperate with you in your efforts to live the new life in Christ."—5 Review, 142.

"As a Christian submits to the solemn rite of baptism, >the three< highest powers in the universe,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,—place Their approval on this act, pledging Themselves to exert Their power in his behalf as he strives to honor God."—6 Manuscript Release, 26 (Letter 53, January 26, 1904; 4 Signs, 399, August 16, 1905).

"The presence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, >the three< highest powers in the universe and those in whose name the believer is baptized, is pledged to be with every striving soul."—Pacific Union Recorder, September 2, 1908.

"The rite of baptism is administered in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. >These three< great powers of heaven pledge Themselves to be the efficiency of all who submit to this ordinance, and who faithfully keep the vow they then make."—6 Manuscript Release, 27 (Manuscript 78, 1905).

"When you went down into the water and were baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, >these three< great powers of heaven pledged Themselves to give you power and grace to resist every temptation to dishonor God."—19 Manuscript Releases, 235.

"When you gave yourself to Christ, you made a pledge in the presence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,—>the three<great >>personal<< dignitaries of heaven."—7 Bible Commentary, 959 (Sons and Daughters of God, 351).

"No requirement is laid upon man that Christ has not obeyed. We can overcome as He overcame, if we will avail ourselves of the help of >the three< great powers of heaven, who are waiting to answer the demand made upon Them by God’s people for power to defeat satanic agencies."—Notebook Leaflets, 124.

"Let us not forget our baptismal vow. In the presence of >the three< highest powers of the heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,—we have pledged ourselves to do the will of Him who, over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, declared, ‘I am the resurrection and the life.’ "—5 Review, 45.

"There is to be the imprint of the . . >threefold powers< in the heavenly world . . >The three< great and glorious >heavenly characters< are present on the occasion of baptism. All the human capabilities are to be henceforth consecrated powers to do service for God in representing the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost upon whom they depend. All heaven is represented by >these three< in covenant relation with the new life."—6 Manuscript Releases, 389.

& Then there is this one:> "The Father cannot be described by the things of earth. The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight.

The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The Word of God declares Him to be ‘the express image of His person.’ ‘God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’ Here is shown the personality of the Father.

>>The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit<< in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour."—Evangelism, 614-615.

"The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible. ‘The Lord’s throne is in heaven’ (Psalm 11:4); yet >>by His Spirit<< >He is everywhere present<."—Education, 132.

"You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life—to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of >the three< holiest Beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling."—Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, 367.

"We are ordained unto God to bear fruit. Was this not our experience when we were led down into the water and baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? What did that mean? —It meant that >the three< great Powers in heaven were pledged to keep us so long as we remain one with Christ, united to the vine."—6 Manuscript Releases, 29 (Sermon given March 10, 1908).

"Those who have been baptized can claim the help of >the three< great Worthies in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."—Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, 366.

"When I feel oppressed, and hardy know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon >the three< great Worthies."—7 Manuscript Releases, 267-268; Manuscript Release 307, 2, 4 (Sermon given October 20, 1906).

"In whose name are we baptized? In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost—>the three< highest powers in the heavenly courts."—Manuscript Release 135, 4 (Camp meeting sermon given June 27, 1907).

"We are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, and these>three<great, infinite powers are unitedly pledged to work in our behalf if we cooperate with them."—1901 General Conference Bulletin, 36-37 (Lift Him Up, 109).

"No requirement is laid upon man that Christ has not obeyed. We can overcome as He overcame, if we will avail ourselves of the help of>>the three great powers of heaven<<, who are waiting to answer the demand made upon Them by God’s people for power to defeat satanic agencies."—Notebook Leaflets, 124.

"Let us not forget our baptismal vow. In the presence of>>the three< highest powers of the heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit<<,—we have pledged ourselves to do the will of Him who, over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, declared, ‘I am the resurrection and the life.’ "—5 Review, 45.

"There is to be the imprint of the . .>>threefold powers< in the heavenly world<< . .>>The three<great and glorious Heavenly characters<< are present on the occasion of baptism. All the human capabilities are to be henceforth consecrated powers to do service for God in representing>>the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost<< upon whom they depend. All heaven is represented by>>these three<< in covenant relation with the new life."—6 Manuscript Releases, 389.

">>I am Instructed to say..... >>The Father cannot be described by the things of earth.>The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily<, and is>>invisible to mortal sight<<.

>>The Son is >all the fullness of the Godhead manifested<<. The Word of God declares Him to be>‘the express>image<of His person<.’ ‘God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’ Here is shown the personality of the Father.

>>The Comforter<<that>Christ promised to send<after He ascended to heaven, >is The Spirit< in all the fullness of the Godhead<<,>making manifest the power<of divine grace>to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour." >Evangelism, 614-615<.

"You are baptized in>the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost<. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life—to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of >>the three holiest Beings in heaven<<, who are able to keep you from falling."—Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, 367.

"We are ordained unto God to bear fruit. Was this not our experience when we were led down into the water and baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? What did that mean? —It meant that >>the three great Powers in heaven<< were pledged to keep us so long as we remain one with Christ, united to the vine."—6 Manuscript Releases, 29 (Sermon given March 10, 1908).

"Those who have been baptized can claim the help of>>the three great Worthies in heaven<<,—>the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost<."—Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, 366.

"When I feel oppressed, and hardy know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon>>>the three< great Worthies<<."—7 Manuscript Releases, 267-268; Manuscript Release 307, 2, 4 (Sermon given October 20, 1906).

"In whose name are we baptized? In the name of>the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost<—>>the three< highest powers in the heavenly courts<<."—Manuscript Release 135, 4 (Camp meeting sermon given June 27, 1907).

"We are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, and>>these three< great, infinite powers<< are unitedly pledged to work in our behalf if we cooperate with them."—1901 General Conference Bulletin, 36-37 (Lift Him Up, 109).

3 HOLIEST >BEINGS<: Plain words of Truth:

"Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life—to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of >the three holiest *BEINGS * in Heaven,< who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden “with Christ in God,”—wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character."- Manuscript Releases Volume Seven [Nos. 419- 525], Page 268.

"There are three living *PERSONS* [or personalities] of the heavenly TRIO; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ".—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905)

“The Holy Spirit always leads to the Written WORD. The Holy Spirit *IS A PERSON*; for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God.” (Ellen G. White, Manuscript Releases, Volume 7, MR No. 487, 1906..

[John317]

Ellen White PP 36.2

The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father's throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both.

Two "Personages" ( PERSONALITIES ) John317....

...The glory of the ONLY self existent 'King' encircled the King and Christ ( that's BOTH )!

The glory of the eternal, self-existent One could only encircle Christ because He was the eternal, self-existent Son of God.

Ellen White is not saying that only the Father was/is "eternal" and "self-existent." Ellen White elsewhere plainly states that Christ is "eternal, "infinite," "self-existent," and "omnipotent." See 6 Bible Commentary, 1075. (Manuscript 27, 1900). Those are adjectives that belong only to God.

The Bible also sometimes does not mention the Holy Spirit, but does this mean the Holy Spirit is either absent or non-existent? Of course not. But that is how some people understand verses such as John 1: 1. Foolishness!

There is no reason for Ellen White to have included the Holy Spirit in this instance, for the Holy Spirit's position is not in question. Lucifer was concerned with the position of Christ, not with the third Person of the Godhead.

[John317]

Review and Herald, Sept 1,1859

The query arises, Can this be taken in its absolute sense if Is this a declaration that God is NOW the only BEING in the universe, who is in possession of immortality, or absolute exemption from death ? Doubtless not. Our Lord declares of the angels that they die no more [Luke xx, 36]; and he says of himself, "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore." Ilev. i, 18. The meaning of the passage under consideration, MUST then be simply this: that God ONLY is the great source of immortality; that he ONLY has IT in himself to bestow upon others. The fact that NOW the Father has CONFERRED equal power in this respect upon the Son [John v, 26], affects in no wise this declaration. With this interpretation 1 Tim. vi, 16, is final and conclusive. This being admitted, we must also make room for the inevitable sequence, that those only are immortal upon whom God has, by a separate and distinct act, bestowed this immeasurable gift.

Yes, this was the common view of most of the people who eventually made up the SDA Church. But notice the date, 1859.

At this time there were some, such as Uriah Smith, who believed Christ was a created being. He believed this until sometime after 1870. So our Pioneers were in a process of change when it comes to their views of the Godhead.

It is important to understand and keep in mind that the Godhead, or Trinity, was not viewed as a central issue. There was no common agreement but there were many conflicting viewpoints and understandings. It was never the subject of study by leaders together or by the people as a group. For instance, it wasn't a part of the topics studied at the Sabbath Bible Conferences of 1848-50.

[miz3]

Quote:

Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."

2Corinthians 3:12-18.

1. Paul is comparing the old covenant to the new covenant (Jesus Christ).

2. Paul is saying that even in his day when Moses (Old Covenant) is read the Jews hearts are still veiled and the Jews are unable to see the Truth (Jesus Christ).

3. However whenever anyone (Jew or Gentile) turns to the Jesus Christ that veil over the heart is removed.

4. Now in regards to verse seventeen:

a. Have you not read Deuteronomy chapter six where it states that God is One! As such that would mean the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One. As such whenever we speak of the Father we mean God; whenever we speak of the Son we mean God; and whenever we speak of the Holy Spirit we mean God.

b. God is Spirit, the Scriptures so state. Thus, when verse seventeen speaks it is saying "the Lord (God) is Spirit" it is correct whether it is talking about the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit.

c. Jesus Christ is both fully God (Spirit) and fully human. Again this is so because the Bible says so. Therefore my friend Dr. Waite to refer to Jesus Christ (as you do for verse seventeen) is no big deal. For Jesus Christ as fully God is indeed the Spirit of the Lord.

d. There is nothing in the context or in specific fact that would say the phrase "Spirit of the Lord" is referring to the Holy Spirit. It is however clear that it is referring to Jesus Christ as very God.

e. If Paul had meant the context and the specific fact to refer to the Holy Spirit he would have in fact used the term the Holy Spirit. This passage is all about Jesus Christ!

f. You must not lift phrases out of their context and twist them to mean something the author(God through Paul) never ever intended. This shameful unScriptural attempt to twist the sacred Word of God is Dr. Waite at minimum, a NAUGHTY! NAUGHT!

As a Christian physician you should know better.

It is unfortunate that many physicians including SDA physicians think that because they are Doctors that makes them smarter than every one else and so they hate it when others don't just accept what they say.

Not all Doctors are this way. I hope you are not one of those Doctors that think they are superior to the rest of humanity! Because Doctors are not smarter and in fact when it comes to Spiritual matters like all the rest of us they need to be taught of God because their so-called smarts do not help them one iota when it comes to Spiritual matters.

[John317]

I agree with you, miz3. Excellent analysis of 2 Cor. 3: 17. I said the same thing in an earlier post, but you managed to say it more clearly and more succinctly.

[Pastor_Chick]

Is the following passage (borrowed from a Trinitarian author: Memories of Olivet, by J. R MACDUFF, D.D.[Presbyterian Minister],1868, p.93) manifesting Ellen White's "Trinity mind-set" or "non-Trinity mind-set"? Please explain your reasoning as if you wanted to convince me of truth. Notice the date as well.

Not one of the angels could have become surety for the human race: their life is God's; they could not surrender it. The angels all wear the yoke of obedience. They are the appointed messengers of Him who is the commander of all heaven. But Christ is equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. He could pay the ransom for man's freedom. He is the eternal, self-existing Son, on whom no yoke had come; and when God asked, "Whom shall I send?" he could reply, "Here am I; send me." He could pledge himself to become man's surety; for he could say that which the highest angel could not say,--I have power over my own life, "power to lay it down, and . . . power to take it again." (YI, June 21, 1900; Ev 615; 12MR 394)

[John317]

Is the following passage (borrowed from a Trinitarian author: Memories of Olivet, by J. R MACDUFF, D.D.[Presbyterian Minister],1868, p.93).... (YI, June 21, 1900; Ev 615; 12MR 394)

Are you able to post what Macduff wrote in order to compare it with the passage by Ellen White?

[Dr. Rich]

John, for the simple reason that the translators THEMSELVES thought the Holy Spirit was a 'he' is the reason why the 'he' is found in those words. You and I were not there when Jesus said these words so the argument lacks any valid support as you are attempting to do. If you want the 'Family Of God' to be a 'gay' family of all three males, then that is your choice.

Just the fact that the Holy Spirit and the Father created both male and female in their likness supports my understanding of a real family of God. It would be like Satan to cause this 'family' to be twisted as Satan twisted all types of sexual acts to get people to believe that the 'Family Of God' is a bunch of 'Men'. To me this is truely sick!

[John317]

Is the following passage .... manifesting Ellen White's "Trinity mind-set" or "non-Trinity mind-set"? Please explain your reasoning as if you wanted to convince me of truth. Notice the date as well.

Originally Posted By: EGW

Not one of the angels could have become surety for the human race: their life is God's; they could not surrender it. The angels all wear the yoke of obedience. They are the appointed messengers of Him who is the commander of all heaven. But Christ is equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. He could pay the ransom for man's freedom. He is the eternal, self-existing Son, on whom no yoke had come; and when God asked, "Whom shall I send?" he could reply, "Here am I; send me." He could pledge himself to become man's surety; for he could say that which the highest angel could not say,--I have power over my own life, "power to lay it down, and . . . power to take it again." (YI, June 21, 1900; Ev 615; 12MR 394)

What does it mean to say that Christ is "the eternal, self-existing Son"-- and that He is "equal with God," "infinite and omnipotent"? Can these things be said of anyone but One who is fully God?

Christ had power to take up His life again-- i.e., power to resurrect Himself-- because He had life in Himself. John 1: 4. Again, only the self-existent One-- Jehovah-- could say this.

Are you familiar with the statement Ellen White makes that Christ was above all law? Why? Because Christ made the law. This couldn't be said of any finite being.

I find it interesting that one of the earliest manuscripts of Jude 5 reads "Jesus" in the place of "Lord." So it was the pre-incarnate Jesus who saved the people out of Egypt. (See ESV) This harmonizes with 1 Cor. 10: 9-- "Let us not tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents...." Other parts of Scripture show that the people tempted Jehovah. Therefore it was Christ who was known by the name "Jehovah."