What Ellen White Has Written About the Godhead

[Pastor_Chick]

There's a simple solution to this, and that is, The Holy Spirit is the same as Christ except that the Spirit doesn't have a human personality and is able to be everywhere at once.

John,

Here is an example of why this discussion cannot find a reasonable conclusion.

We can agree with your words above.

However, your words do not mean what we view them to mean.

In "higher education," this is called "by-passing" and never results in a beneficial dialogue.

[Pastor_Chick]

Quote:

POSTED BY JOHN317:

The Trinity in Seventh-day Adventist History

Merlin Burt

E. G. White Estate Branch Office

Andrews University

The last decade has seen increased anti-Trinitarian activity within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Though significant, anti-Trinitarianism has remained at the margins of the movement.

The trinity is a side issue, one of the enemy's favorites. [...]

[miz3]

Trinitarian vs nontrinitarian.

The Bible clearly establishes that God is God. That God sent Jesus Christ into the world and that Jesus Christ is God! The Bible does NOT ask us to figure it out. It states this as a FACT! No discussion necessary!

Here is what the Gospels say about the Holy Spirit.

"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit."

Matthew 1:18.

The Holy Spirit conceived Jesus Christ! That is not trivial! The Holy Spirit is therefore NOT TRIVIAL!

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Matthew 12:32.

Notice that sin against Jesus Christ will be forgiven, however just speaking against the Holy Spirit will NOT BE FORGIVEN!

I think that clearly and unambiguously puts the Holy Spirit in a category of its own! Again, this is NOT TRIVIAL!

"Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit."

Mark 13:11.

Again, NOT TRIVIAL! Without the Holy Spirit we humans are unable to speak Truth!

"Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert,"

Luke 4:1.

How about that! The Holy Spirit orders Jesus Christ (God) to do something. NOT TRIVIAL! In fact it is astounding!

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

John 14:26.

The Father will order the Holy Spirit to teach humans all things. That means the Holy Spirit knows what God knows! Only God knows everything! Again, NOT TRIVIAL!

"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you."

John 16:5-15

Notice how these three Entities command each other. NOT TRIVIAL!

Whether the Holy Spirit is the Third Member of the Godhead or not no one knows. In fact, we humans know very little about the Godhead and HOW the Godhead works. We do know however, that God the Father is NOT TRIVIAL. We do know however, that God Jesus Christ is NOT TRIVIAL. We do know however, the Holy Spirit is NOT TRIVIAL.

As such it IS TRIVIAL as to whether you are Trinitarian or nonTrinitarian. Such labels do not matter.

What does matter is that the FATHER, JESUS CHRIST, and THE HOLY SPIRIT-------ARE NOT TRIVIAL! We must therefore view and speak of all THREE with the greatest of respect, greatest reverence, and the greatest of care!

THAT IS WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES AND COMMANDS!

Quote:

Originally Posted By: miz3

As to Ellen White it is abundantly clear that her knowledge on the subject was one of learning just like the other humans of her day. It is also clear that she received no special messages from God that would clear up her confusion and the confusion of the pioneers on this issue. It is obvious that Ellen White is not an expert on this issue. She shares the same confusion as did everyone else of her day on this issue.

Apparently God thought the Bible was sufficient knowledge for them to know on the subject. Thus God gave us no further Light through Ellen White on this subject.

Thus, any discussion on this subject in regard to Ellen White will only be confusion. Your discussion on this thread bears witness to the fact that I am right in saying this.

Also, the fact that one of you claims to be a "prophet" who receives direct messages from God to engage in this unseemly discussion is frankly revolting and shameful. You are clearly not knowledgeable about the subject you are talking about!

------------------------------------------------------------

pastorchick the words above the line were primarily directed at you. You have chosen not to heed these Words from the very Scripture you claim to obey. You are treating the Holy Spirit in shabby manner. This is abhorrent and reprehensible. You claim to be a "prophet" yet you behave on this subject as if the Holy Spirit were some TRIVIAL COMMODITY!

I have given Biblical proof that the Holy Spirit is NOT TRIVIAL in the exact same sense as the Father and the Son are NOT TRIVIAL. Yet you ignore the plain and clear Word of the Lord God. This demonstrates for all who are viewing this thread:

1. That you cannot be a true prophet because you do not heed or abide by the clear Word of God. In fact you have clearly REJECTED THE CLEAR WORD OF GOD!

2. The Holy Spirit is a separate Entity otherwise the Holy Spirit could NOT ORDER the Son to go into the wilderness. Since the Holy Spirit ORDERED CHRIST then the Holy Spirit has separate power of His own. At minimum you must then view the Holy Spirit as an EQUAL ENTITY with the Father and the Son!

3. Quoting Ellen White's unBiblical views in her early years does NOT ERASE THE TRUTH AS STATED IN SCRIPTURE! Apparently you do not care what Scripture says about the Holy Spirit you care only about using Ellen White to support your erroneous views. This is also seen by all who read this thread. Again a true prophet of God would not behave in this unGodly manner!

4. A true prophet of God would show respect for the Word of God (Bible) regardless of what other evidence is existent! Again you fail!

5. Your placement of the Holy Spirit in a more trivial place than the Father and the Son is NOT BIBLICAL! FACT!

[Dr. Waite]

Is there any verse in the Holy Bible that states that I am to worship the holy spirit as a separate person different from the Father and the Son?

[Pastor_Chick]

TRIVIAL? Where did that come from?

[miz3]

TRIVIAL? Where did that come from?

It came from you pastorchick because you are treating the Holy Spirit as a TRIVIAL BEING! You are denying the separateness of the Holy Spirit as a distinct Being in the Godhead and asserting that the Godhead is only two when in fact it is Three!

As I pointed out to you it cannot be two when the Third Being orders Jesus Christ to go into the wilderness!

How can a person claim to be a true prophet of God and at the same time TRIVIALIZE the Holy Spirit?

[miz3]

Is there any verse in the Holy Bible that states that I am to worship the holy spirit as a separate person different from the Father and the Son?

Not that I am aware of!

However that in and of itself does not make the Holy Spirit any less NOT part of the Godhead. Nor does it mean that one has license to TRIVIALIZE THE HOLY SPIRIT!

As already quoted in another post the Bible clearly and unambiguously states that "blaspheme against the Father and the Son will be forgiven, but blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven". Does this text not put the Holy Spirit in a place above the Father and above the Son? YES! AND YES AGAIN!

Your innuendo that some how the Holy Spirit is less than the Father and the Son merely because we are not commanded to worship the Holy Spirit is in gross error! Nice try though!

In fact when the disciples asked Jesus Christ to teach them to pray Jesus told them that they should always start their prayers with:

"Our Father in Heaven...."

Jesus purposefully left out the Son and the Holy Spirit as Beings to address in our prayers!

I believe that should be sufficiently clear now!

[Pastor_Chick]

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Matt. 12:35-37)

[miz3]

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Matt. 12:35-37)

You are indeed correct to apply this text to yourself and to your conduct on this thread in regard to your treatment of the Holy Spirit!

You certainly have not been the "good man" but instead have been the "evil man" in that you blaspheme the Holy Spirit!

[Pastor_Chick]

Quote:

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Matt. 12:35-37)

You are indeed correct to apply this text to yourself and to your conduct on this thread in regard to your treatment of the Holy Spirit!

You certainly have not been the "good man" but instead have been the "evil man" in that you blaspheme the Holy Spirit!

And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? (Matt. 9:3, 4)

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: (1 Peter 2:21-23)

[Pastor_Chick]

The atomic bomb contained within Kellogg's Living temple book...

...Which caused Ellen White to absolutely erupt ( along with every SDA pioneer ).

...Was simply the affirmation; 'God', The Holy Spirit Vs. God's holy spirit.

Kellogg, Living Temple page 23

Says one, 'God may be present by His Spirit, OR by His power, but certainly God himself cannot be present everywhere at once.' We answer: How can power be separated from the source of power? Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God himself is actually and truly present".

In the rubric of the Adventist godhead ONLY the Father was "GOD"....

...And because God was a PERSON aka PERSONALITY an affirmation that the Holy SPirit was also God.

...Was considered in the Arian mind to be destroying "God".

Ellen White, RH

He who denies the personality of God and of his Son Jesus Christ, is denying God and Christ. “If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” If you continue to believe and obey the truths you first embraced regarding the personality of the Father and the Son, you will be joined together with him in love. There will be seen that union for which Christ prayed just before his trial and crucifixion

[...]

In the mind of Ellen White God = Father ONLY.....

...Therefore to say "God, the Holy Spirit" was heresy.

[miz3]

And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? (Matt. 9:3, 4)

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: (1 Peter 2:21-23)

When you quote Scripture you must quote correctly and you must apply it correctly!

You have NOT done this!

This why the above quotes show you to be the Pharisee and the scribe who actually blasphemes the Holy Spirit!

You are also correct in that our ears do "suffer" when we hear you blaspheme the Holy Spirit! We also suffer when you try and apply texts to us that are not applicable to us but instead are applicable to you.

[miz3]

pastorchick,

Why do you TRIVIALIZE THE HOLY SPIRIT?

Why do you not show me from the Bible where you are correct in regard to the Holy Spirit?

Could the reason be that the texts I cited are an indictment of your perversion of the Truth?

Could it be that you have no Scriptural basis for your belief about the Holy Spirit?

Thus, you resort to personal attacks!

[John317]

Just like the Christ was ONE with His disciples - one in unity and purpose AND....

...It was THUS that "God" and Christ were ONE.

...By default that makes the disciples AS MUCH ONE with God as the Holy Spirit.

...Which is exactly what SDA teaching was at that time = the Holy Spirit was NOT God.

This is unutterable foolishness.

You need to read everything the Bible and Ellen White say.

Humans are not the fullness of the Godhead, but the Father is and so are the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Ellen White says that the Holy Spirit is God, and of course she never says this about people.

[John317]

As already quoted in another post the Bible clearly and unambiguously states that "blaspheme against the Father and the Son will be forgiven, but blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven". Does this text not put the Holy Spirit in a place above the Father and above the Son? YES! AND YES AGAIN!

Your innuendo that some how the Holy Spirit is less than the Father and the Son merely because we are not commanded to worship the Holy Spirit is in gross error! Nice try though!

Excellent point. This clearly shows that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son.

Also, one cannot blaspheme a non-person, and therefore the Holy Spirit must be a person. He is indeed "the third person of the Godhead." Since He is the "third person," He cannot possibly be also the "second person" or the "first person."

[John317]

Here is one EGW quote that was presented by Gus (notice the date please):

Originally Posted By: EGW

He who denies the personality of God and of his Son Jesus Christ, is denying God and Christ. "If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." If you continue to believe and obey the truths you first embraced regarding the personality of the Father and the Son, you will be joined together with him in love. (RH 03-08-06)

We need the read the above along with the following paragraphs, which show that Ellen White believe the Holy Spirit is a person as much as God is a person and that the Holy Spirit has a distinct personality.

Quote:

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. . . .

617

{Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers.-- We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905) {Ev 617.3}

The third person of the Godhead is not the first or the second person of the Godhead.

That's an impossibility.

In the same way, the first person of the Godhead is not the same person as the second person of the Godhead. Do you agree?

[John317]

...I question his "Arian mind" statement, though "semi-Arian" might fit.

No Arian or semi-Arian would write the following statements, the vast majority of which you have not yet dealt with:

">>The three<powers of the Godhead<<,>the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit<, are pledged to be their strength and their efficiency in their new life in Christ Jesus."—Australian Union Conference Record, October 7, 1907.

"We are to co-operate with>the three< highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God."—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, 51 and (Evangelism, 617).

The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin."—Manuscript 145, 1901. (Evangelism, 616).

"The work of salvation is not a small matter, but so vast that the highest authorities are taken hold of by the expressed faith of the human agent. The eternal Godhead—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost—is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent."—Upward Look, 148.

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, >the three< holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men to overcome the powers of darkness. All the facilities of heaven are pledged to those who by their baptismal vows have entered into a covenant with God."—5 Bible Commentary, 1110. (Manuscript 92,1901).

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism, to receive the candidates who have renounced the world and have received Christ into the soul temple. These candidates have entered into the family of God, and their names are inscribed in the Lamb’s book of life."—6 Bible Commentary, 1075. (Manuscript 27, 1900).

"When we have accepted Christ, and in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit have pledged ourselves to serve God, the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit— >the three< dignitaries and powers of heaven—pledge themselves that every facility shall be given to us if we carry out our baptismal vows to "come out from among them, and be . . separate . . and touch not the unclean thing."— 6 Bible Commentary, 1075. (Manuscript 85, 1901).

"Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit . . Have you been born again? Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then cooperate with >the three< great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf."—7 Bible Commentary, 908; Signs, June 19, 1091 (Manuscript 11, 1901).

"The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from >the three<->>PERSONS<<—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."—6 Bible Commentary, 1074.

"The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by >the power of God in>>the third<>PERSON<< of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit<."—Series A, no. 10, 37 (Evangelism, 617).

"Evil had been accumulating for centuries, and could only be restrained and resisted by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, >>the third Person<<>of the Godhead<, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power."—10 Manuscript Releases, 63 (Letter 8, February 6, 1896; Series A, No. 10, 25; Testimonies to Ministers, 392,)

>"There are>>THREE LIVING PERSONS<<of the heavenly>>TRIO<<; in the name of >these three< great powers—The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—Those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ."—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, 63. (Evangelism, 615.

" ‘If a man love Me. He will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with Him."—Fundamentals of Christian Education, 125. (Manuscript Releases, 19, 153).

"Keep yourselves where >the three< great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, can be your efficiency. These powers work with the one who gives himself unreservedly to God. The strength of heaven is at the command of God’s believing ones."—In Heavenly Places, 176 (4 Signs, 512; Southern Watchman, February 23, 1904 ).

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost supply the power that makes him victorious in every conflict with the prince of darkness."—6 Manuscript Releases, 167 (Letter 200, December 15, 1902).

"They pledge themselves to devote their lives to God’s service; and >the three< great powers in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, pledge Themselves to cooperate with them, to work in and through them."—6 Manuscript Releases, 166 (Manuscript 118, October 6, 1902).

">The three< highest powers in the universe are pledged to labor with those who will seek to save the lost."—5 Review, 533, col. 2.

"In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, man is laid in his watery grave, buried with Christ in baptism, and raised from the water to live the new life of loyalty to God >The three< great powers in heaven are witnesses; they are invisible but present."—Manuscript 57, 1900 (6 Bible Commentary, 1074).

"If man, in acquiring the Christian graces, works on the plan of addition, God has pledged Himself to work in his behalf upon the plan of multiplication. "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord." The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from >the three<>>PERSONS<<—The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."—Manuscript 57, 1900 (6 Bible Commentary, 1074).

"At our baptism we pledged ourselves to break all connection with Satan and his agencies, and to put heart and mind and soul into the work of extending the kingdom of God. All heaven is working for this object. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are pledged to cooperate with sanctified human instrumentalities. If we are true to our vow, there is opened to us a door of communication with heaven—a door that no human hand or satanic agency can close."—Review May 17, 1906. (6 Bible Commentary, 1075.

"On that occasion [baptism] we pledge ourselves, in the presence of >the three< great heavenly Powers, to come out from the world and be separate."—6 Manuscript Release 167 (Manuscript 130, October 27, 1902).

"When you took these vows, you pledged yourself, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, that you would live unto God, and you have no right to break this pledge. The help of >the three< great Powers is placed at your disposal."—5 Review, 143 (Receiving Christ, 178).

"Baptized into the>>>THREEFOLD NAME<<< . . at the very entrance of their Christian life . . the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism."—6 Bible Commentary, 1075.

"Those who submit to the solemn rite of baptism pledge themselves to devote their lives to God’s service; and >the three< great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, pledge themselves to cooperate with them, to work in and through them."—4 Signs, 282 (March 11, 1903).

">The three< great powers of heaven pledged Themselves to cooperate with you in your efforts to live the new life in Christ."—5 Review, 142.

"As a Christian submits to the solemn rite of baptism, >the three< highest powers in the universe,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,—place Their approval on this act, pledging Themselves to exert Their power in his behalf as he strives to honor God."—6 Manuscript Release, 26 (Letter 53, January 26, 1904; 4 Signs, 399, August 16, 1905).

"The presence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, >the three< highest powers in the universe and those in whose name the believer is baptized, is pledged to be with every striving soul."—Pacific Union Recorder, September 2, 1908.

"The rite of baptism is administered in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. >These three< great powers of heaven pledge Themselves to be the efficiency of all who submit to this ordinance, and who faithfully keep the vow they then make."—6 Manuscript Release, 27 (Manuscript 78, 1905).

"When you went down into the water and were baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, >these three< great powers of heaven pledged Themselves to give you power and grace to resist every temptation to dishonor God."—19 Manuscript Releases, 235.

"When you gave yourself to Christ, you made a pledge in the presence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,—>the three<great >>personal<< dignitaries of heaven."—7 Bible Commentary, 959 (Sons and Daughters of God, 351).

"No requirement is laid upon man that Christ has not obeyed. We can overcome as He overcame, if we will avail ourselves of the help of >the three< great powers of heaven, who are waiting to answer the demand made upon Them by God’s people for power to defeat satanic agencies."—Notebook Leaflets, 124.

"Let us not forget our baptismal vow. In the presence of >the three< highest powers of the heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,—we have pledged ourselves to do the will of Him who, over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, declared, ‘I am the resurrection and the life.’ "—5 Review, 45.

"There is to be the imprint of the . . >threefold powers< in the heavenly world . . >The three< great and glorious >heavenly characters< are present on the occasion of baptism. All the human capabilities are to be henceforth consecrated powers to do service for God in representing the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost upon whom they depend. All heaven is represented by >these three< in covenant relation with the new life."—6 Manuscript Releases, 389.

& Then there is this one:> "The Father cannot be described by the things of earth. The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight.

The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The Word of God declares Him to be ‘the express image of His person.’ ‘God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’ Here is shown the personality of the Father.

>>The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit<< in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour."—Evangelism, 614-615.

"The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible. ‘The Lord’s throne is in heaven’ (Psalm 11:4); yet >>by His Spirit<< >He is everywhere present<."—Education, 132.

"You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life—to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of >the three< holiest Beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling."—Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, 367.

"We are ordained unto God to bear fruit. Was this not our experience when we were led down into the water and baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? What did that mean? —It meant that >the three< great Powers in heaven were pledged to keep us so long as we remain one with Christ, united to the vine."—6 Manuscript Releases, 29 (Sermon given March 10, 1908).

"Those who have been baptized can claim the help of >the three< great Worthies in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."—Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, 366.

"When I feel oppressed, and hardy know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon >the three< great Worthies."—7 Manuscript Releases, 267-268; Manuscript Release 307, 2, 4 (Sermon given October 20, 1906).

"In whose name are we baptized? In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost—>the three< highest powers in the heavenly courts."—Manuscript Release 135, 4 (Camp meeting sermon given June 27, 1907).

"We are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, and these>three<great, infinite powers are unitedly pledged to work in our behalf if we cooperate with them."—1901 General Conference Bulletin, 36-37 (Lift Him Up, 109).

"No requirement is laid upon man that Christ has not obeyed. We can overcome as He overcame, if we will avail ourselves of the help of>>the three great powers of heaven<<, who are waiting to answer the demand made upon Them by God’s people for power to defeat satanic agencies."—Notebook Leaflets, 124.

"Let us not forget our baptismal vow. In the presence of>>the three< highest powers of the heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit<<,—we have pledged ourselves to do the will of Him who, over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, declared, ‘I am the resurrection and the life.’ "—5 Review, 45.

"There is to be the imprint of the . .>>threefold powers< in the heavenly world<< . .>>The three<great and glorious Heavenly characters<< are present on the occasion of baptism. All the human capabilities are to be henceforth consecrated powers to do service for God in representing>>the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost<< upon whom they depend. All heaven is represented by>>these three<< in covenant relation with the new life."—6 Manuscript Releases, 389.

">>I am Instructed to say..... >>The Father cannot be described by the things of earth.>The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily<, and is>>invisible to mortal sight<<.

>>The Son is >all the fullness of the Godhead manifested<<. The Word of God declares Him to be>‘the express>image<of His person<.’ ‘God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’ Here is shown the personality of the Father.

>>The Comforter<<that>Christ promised to send<after He ascended to heaven, >is The Spirit< in all the fullness of the Godhead<<,>making manifest the power<of divine grace>to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour." >Evangelism, 614-615<.

"You are baptized in>the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost<. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life—to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of >>the three holiest Beings in heaven<<, who are able to keep you from falling."—Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, 367.

"We are ordained unto God to bear fruit. Was this not our experience when we were led down into the water and baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? What did that mean? —It meant that >>the three great Powers in heaven<< were pledged to keep us so long as we remain one with Christ, united to the vine."—6 Manuscript Releases, 29 (Sermon given March 10, 1908).

"Those who have been baptized can claim the help of>>the three great Worthies in heaven<<,—>the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost<."—Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, 366.

"When I feel oppressed, and hardy know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon>>>the three< great Worthies<<."—7 Manuscript Releases, 267-268; Manuscript Release 307, 2, 4 (Sermon given October 20, 1906).

"In whose name are we baptized? In the name of>the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost<—>>the three< highest powers in the heavenly courts<<."—Manuscript Release 135, 4 (Camp meeting sermon given June 27, 1907).

"We are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, and>>these three< great, infinite powers<< are unitedly pledged to work in our behalf if we cooperate with them."—1901 General Conference Bulletin, 36-37 (Lift Him Up, 109).

3 HOLIEST >BEINGS<: Plain words of Truth:

"Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life—to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of >the three holiest *BEINGS * in Heaven,< who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden “with Christ in God,”—wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character."- Manuscript Releases Volume Seven [Nos. 419- 525], Page 268.

"There are three living *PERSONS* of the heavenly TRIO; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ".—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905)

“The Holy Spirit always leads to the Written WORD. The Holy Spirit *IS A PERSON*; for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God.” (Ellen G. White, Manuscript Releases, Volume 7, MR No. 487, 1906..

[Dr. Waite]

John:

You say that the word "spirit" or "holy spirit" can only refer to a person who is distinct from the trinity doctrine "Father" and the trinity doctrine "Son".

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty." 1 Cor. 3:17

In the context of this verse, who is the writer referring to when he uses the word "Lord"?

[Pastor_Chick]

John,

I have not been moved an inch by your "arguments." Spamming the thread may be a good way to overcome your opposition, for the sake of the readership, but God looks at other issues.

I do have this question, if you can offer a simple answer. Your proposition is from 1898 until the death of EGW in 1915, she was becoming or had become "Trinitarian." There had been bold statements made by others such as the one in RH that you mentioned by F. M. Wilcox -- employing the word "Trinity." (Although, non-trinitarian Adventists would have accepted his statement anyway.)

Why did EGW NEVER use the word "Trinity?" If she had accepted it, and the church body was open to it, WHY would she not just use it?

There is something missing in this story, and I think I know what it is.

[John317]

John:

You say that the word "spirit" or "holy spirit" can only refer to a person who is distinct from the trinity doctrine "Father" and the trinity doctrine "Son".

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty." 1 Cor. 3:17

In the context of this verse, who is the writer referring to when he uses the word "Lord"?

Paul may be saying that Christ and the Spirit function together in the Christian's experience-- i.e., that the Lord (Christ) comes to us through the ministry of the Spirit (though they are still two distinct persons). Another view (based on the reference in v. 16 to Exodus 34: 34, "Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him") is that the "Lord" here refers to Yahweh ("the LORD") in the OT (that is, God in his whole being without specifying Father, Son, or Spirit). In this case, Paul is saying that Yahweh in the OT is not just Father and Son, He is also Spirit. In either case, Paul's primary point seems to be that the Christian's of the ministry of the Spirit under the new covenant (2 Cor. 3: 3-8) is parallel to Moses' experience of the Lord under the old Coveant-- i.e., that the Spirit (under the new covenant) sets one free from the veil of hard-heartedness (vv. 12-15). Paul regularly distinguishes Christ from the Holy Spirit in his writings, and that is surely the case even here, since later in this verse he speaks of the Spirit of the Lord. Moreover, it should not be supposed that Paul is teaching that any of the persons of the Trinity (the Father, the Son, or the Spirit) are the same person, which would be modalism; instead Paul is stressing the gracious unity of purpose among the three persons of the Trinity. (See ESV Study Bible.)

Remember that Ellen White says clearly that "there are three living persons in the heavenly trio," etc., and she says plainly that the Holy Spirit is a distinct personality.

When interpretating Scripture, or Ellen White's writings, we must remember to let the clear statements interpret the less clear statements, and not the other way around. If we do that, there will be no reason for confusion.

[John317]

..There had been bold statements made by others such as the one in RH that you mentioned by F. M. Wilcox -- employing the word "Trinity." (Although, non-trinitarian Adventists would have accepted his statement anyway.)

Do you accept this statement by F.M Wilcox:

"For the benefit of those who may desire to know more particularly the cardinal features of the faith held by this denomination, we shall state that Seventh-day Adventists believe,—

1. In the divine Trinity. This Trinity consists of the eternal Father, a personal, spiritual being, omnipotent, omniscient, infinite in power, wisdom, and love; of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the eternal Father, through whom all things were created, and through whom the salvation of the redeemed hosts will be accomplished; the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, the one regenerating agency in the work of redemption." (F. M. Wilcox, The Message for Today, RH Oct. 9, 1913, p. 21)

Is there any part of this statement that you reject?

Notice he says that the Trinity consists of three persons, the FAther, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The Father is the first person of the Trinity; Christ is the second person of the Trinity; and the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity.

Do you believe in this "divine Trinity" as explained by editor F.M. Wilcox in the R&H almost 100 years ago?

[Dr. Waite]

JOHN:

Why cannot you just give me a simple answer?

Who is the writer of 2 Cor 3:17 referring to when he uses the name "Lord" in this verse? What is your interpretation?

Anyone else want to comment on this?

[John317]

Give me a simple answer to this question:

Can you explain how "the third person of the Godhead" could possibly be the same person as the "second person of the Godhead"?

Can the first person of the Godhead be the same person as the second person of the Godhead? If not, then how do you think the second and third persons of the Godhead are the same person?

[John317]

"Lord" in 2 Cor. 3: 17 refers either to Christ or to Yahweh of the Old Testament.

Now read this:

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

Notice that this says that the Holy Spirit is one of three living persons who will co-operate with believers.

There are not two persons but three. Just as the first person of the Godhead is not the second person of the Godhead, so the third person of the Godhead is not the second person of the Godhead.

[phkrause]

"Lord" in 2 Cor. 3: 17 refers either to Christ or to Yahweh of the Old Testament.

Now read this:

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

Notice that this says that the Holy Spirit is one of three living persons who will co-operate with believers.

There are not two persons but three. Just as the first person of the Godhead is not the second person of the Godhead, so the third person of the Godhead is not the second person of the Godhead.