What Ellen White Has Written About the Godhead

[cheddar]

John, for the simple reason that the translators THEMSELVES thought the Holy Spirit was a 'he' is the reason why the 'he' is found in those words. You and I were not there when Jesus said these words so the argument lacks any valid support as you are attempting to do. If you want the 'Family Of God' to be a 'gay' family of all three males, then that is your choice.

Just the fact that the Holy Spirit and the Father created both male and female in their likness supports my understanding of a real family of God. It would be like Satan to cause this 'family' to be twisted as Satan twisted all types of sexual acts to get people to believe that the 'Family Of God' is a bunch of 'Men'. To me this is truely sick!

Dr. Rich in his own way has brought up an important question - Is God a sexual being and if he is how is that possible if all the beings in heaven are male?

Well, for one all the beings in heaven are spiritual so in that regard they are higher than us and some things will never be truly understood until we get there.

God the father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the life givers of the universe so in this respect they would all fit the traditional 'male' role.

All created beings (angels, human beings) receive their life from God, so in this respect all the angels and human beings would fit the traditional 'female' role.

When Satan refused to bow down to Jesus Christ and submit to his authority he was basically rejecting his 'female' role and trying to attain to the higher Godly 'male' role of the life giver.

Satan's character can best be understood as a spurned lover - Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned.

[John317]

John, for the simple reason that the translators THEMSELVES thought the Holy Spirit was a 'he' is the reason why the 'he' is found in those words. You and I were not there when Jesus said these words so the argument lacks any valid support as you are attempting to do.

The Gospel of John was written in Greek and the Apostle was inspired by the Holy Spirit, wasn't he? At least I believe he was.

Are you suggesting that Jesus said "she" but that the eyewitness recorded "he"?

The fact is that all we have is what the Scriptures say. What would it be like if everyone struck out on their own, claiming that Christ said things that are not recorded in the Gospels? It would be pretty chaotic, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

If you want the 'Family Of God' to be a 'gay' family of all three males, then that is your choice.

I don't understand that God the Father and the Holy Spirit are "males."

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Just the fact that the Holy Spirit and the Father created both male and female in their likness supports my understanding of a real family of God.

It requires both the male and female for humanity to be fully in God's image because God has both male and female (non-sexual) characteristics. But that doesn't necessitate one of the Persons of the Godhead to be "female" and the others "male." After all, we're not talking about the sex or gender of the Godhead. God the Father and the Holy Spirit have no "sex" or gender. The Son does have gender NOW because He is a glorified human being, the God-man. But this is not true of the other two persons of the Godhead.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

It would be like Satan to cause this 'family' to be twisted as Satan twisted all types of sexual acts to get people to believe that the 'Family Of God' is a bunch of 'Men'. To me this is truely sick!

What's sick is to think that God the Father and the Holy Spirit are either male or female. The masculine pronoun is not intended to convey that idea.

[Gustave]

John317, you appear to be missing the primary point of my posts...

...I do not deny that Ellen White wrote those statements you referenced.

...What's clear is that you are assigning them a meaning which is alien to their context.

You are doing EXACTLY what Kellogg was documented as doing....

...As explicitly recorded in his correspondence(S) W/ G.I. Butler.

Kellogg to G.I. Butler

As far as I can fathom, the difficulty which is found in the Living Temple, the whole thing may be simmered down to this question: IS THE HOLY GHOST A PERSON. You say NO. I had supposed the Bible said this for the reason that the personal pronoun he is used in speaking of the Holy Ghost. Sister White uses the pronoun he and has said in as many words that the Holy Ghost is the third person of the Godhead. How the Holy Ghost can be the third person and NOT be a person at all is difficult for me to see

Kellogg stated he "supposed" the Bible taught the Holy Ghost was a person....

...And follows that up with saying "Sister White" also used the personal pronoun "he".

...Therefore he ( Kellogg ) supposed he wasn't doing anything wrong as Ellen, in so many words,

...Was saying the same thing Kellogg was saying.

John, you have chosen to ignore your own denominations definition of what PERSONALITY is....

...Within the total time-hack of Ellen's supposed prophetic ministry.

...In an attempt to make your affirmation look reasonable you have done the only thing you could.

...Which was deleting certain posts I made which were merely quoting your own publications.

Right in the middle of Kellogg's "Trinity apostasy" SDA publications double their efforts to get the truth out...

...The following summary statements are from the 1905 Signs of the Times.

"But notwithstanding his incomprehensibility, let it never be forgotten THAT God is a real being, a personality, and dwells in a particular place. The Father is a person; the Son also, though, separate and distinct from his Father".

"I will commune with thee from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony.' 1 Ex. 25:22. This was an example and shadow of heavenly things. It reveals God in a definite locality. Christ ascended to his Father in heaven (John 20: 17), and taught us to pray to our Father in heaven. Matt. 6: 9. To deny the personality of God is the most arrant unbelief. It is well-nigh blasphemy. It demolishes at a stroke the divinity of God. and virtually abolishes the Deity. It overthrows the foundation of the Christian religion, by substituting the pagan notion of a god who is everywhere equally present, working through nature, dwelling in plants and animals, for the God of Christianity, who has his abode in heaven".

"These words of Jesus state as truly that the Father has shape as that he has a voice. It would be as sensible to deny the one as the other. And that which has shape must be material, and be in some particular place more than another. The same thing is stated in Phil. 2:5, 6. "Let this mind be in you. which was also in Christ Jesus: wiho, being in the form of God. thought it not robbery to be equal with God." This scripture tells us that God has a form, AND that Christ bore the image of his Father".

Now this next part you need to pay attention to John....

...It effectly terminates your argument.

"In view of this we can readily understand why Jesus said, " He that hath seen me hath seen the Father." John 74:9. In form and character he was the very image of the Father, and to see him was to see the Father. But BOTH have form and substance. as the texts declare. In the creation of man in the beginning the Father entered into consultation WITH his Son. and said, " Let US make man in our image, after our likeness." Gen. 1: 26. And the record states, " So God created man in his ou'n image, in the image of God created he him ; male and female created he them." Verse 27. Webster defines " image " as " a similitude of any person or thing. sculptured, drawn, or otherwise made perceptible to the sight."

"If the language of these scriptures does not convey clearly the fact that God is a real person, it is hard to conceive of any language that would do so".

"This language is certainly descriptive of a real being. It speaks of his face, feet, hands, and back parts".

"A similar description is given by John. Rev. i: 12-18. Both of these are descriptions of a real being before whom angels stand. They speak of his head, hair, eyes. feet, hands, and face. To treat this as figurative is to make the most sublime description of the eternal God ever written by the pen of mortals, meaningless".

In the following section of the same article the author uses Ellen White to make his point.

"Another servant oi the Lord beheld in vision the same glorious image, and has given a similar description. " I saw a throne, and on it sal the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance, and admired his lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered him. I asked Jesus if his Father had a form like himself. He said he had, but I could not behold it, for, said he, if you should once behold the glory of his person, you would cease to exist." " Early Writings," page 45-".

_______END of Summary Statements of the 1905 Signs of the Times____

These statements are IDENTICAL to those the Church was making in the 1850's through the life of Ellen White....

...Ellen White herself charged Kellogg belief that "God the Holy Spirit.

...Destroyed the personality of God EXACTLY as did the many authors of your own publications.

The anti-Trinitarian members of the SDA Church throughout Ellen's life had ZERO problems....

...In calling Jesus "God" - they did it all the time.

...They also had ZERO problems in using personal pronouns for the Holy Spirit.

Yet when Ellen says the SAME things the anti Pioneers say it somehow means the direct opposite of everthing else SAID THE SAME WAY.

The Watchman, May 1931

If man was made in God's image, God himself must be a personal Being. But there are other particulars given about the person of God which substantiate this. God has a face (Exodus 33:20, Revelation 20: 11); God has hair (Daniel 7:9); God has eyes (2 Chronicles, 16:9); God has nostrils (Psalm 18:15); God has organs (Isaiah 30:27, 28); God has a back (Exodus 33:21-23);

God has shoulders (Deuteronomy 33:12); God has hands (Isaiah 49:16; Deuteronomy 33: 2); God has fingers (Psalm 8:3); God has feet (Psalm 18:9).

So John, if Seventh-day Adventists believed that the Father had a MATERIAL BODY with all the members and parts of a perfect man - WOULD you consider a man who was born WITHOUT a bowel a perfect man? I would really like your answer to that John317.

[John317]

John317, you appear to be missing the primary point of my posts...

...I do not deny that Ellen White wrote those statements you referenced.

...What's clear is that you are assigning them a meaning which is alien to their context.

You are doing EXACTLY what Kellogg was documented as doing....

...As explicitly recorded in his correspondence(S) W/ G.I. Butler.

This is an unsubstantiated claim so far. What you need to do is look carefully at each of the quotes and show how I am "assigning them a meaning which is alien to their context."

Please do this.

You might begin with the statements found in the book, Evangelism, 614-617.

[John317]

...Kellogg to G.I. Butler

As far as I can fathom, the difficulty which is found in the Living Temple, the whole thing may be simmered down to this question: IS THE HOLY GHOST A PERSON. You say NO. I had supposed the Bible said this for the reason that the personal pronoun he is used in speaking of the Holy Ghost. Sister White uses the pronoun he and has said in as many words that the Holy Ghost is the third person of the Godhead. How the Holy Ghost can be the third person and NOT be a person at all is difficult for me to see

Kellogg stated he "supposed" the Bible taught the Holy Ghost was a person....

...And follows that up with saying "Sister White" also used the personal pronoun "he".

...Therefore he ( Kellogg ) supposed he wasn't doing anything wrong as Ellen, in so many words,

...Was saying the same thing Kellogg was saying.

John, you have chosen to ignore your own denominations definition of what PERSONALITY is....

...Within the total time-hack of Ellen's supposed prophetic ministry.

...In an attempt to make your affirmation look reasonable you have done the only thing you could.

...Which was deleting certain posts I made which were merely quoting your own publications.

Right in the middle of Kellogg's "Trinity apostasy" SDA publications double their efforts to get the truth out...

...The following summary statements are from the 1905 Signs of the Times.

"But notwithstanding his incomprehensibility, let it never be forgotten THAT God is a real being, a personality, and dwells in a particular place. The Father is a person; the Son also, though, separate and distinct from his Father".

None of those sources are authoritative. They are good to study in order to find out what certain people were saying and what they believed at that time, but I'm not concerned in this thread with what they believed. What they believed can have no influence on my own belief. My belief, and the belief of the church, must be based only on the Bible and on the writings of Ellen White.

[John317]

....

"I will commune with thee from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony.' 1 Ex. 25:22. This was an example and shadow of heavenly things. It reveals God in a definite locality. Christ ascended to his Father in heaven (John 20: 17), and taught us to pray to our Father in heaven. Matt. 6: 9. To deny the personality of God is the most arrant unbelief. It is well-nigh blasphemy. It demolishes at a stroke the divinity of God. and virtually abolishes the Deity. It overthrows the foundation of the Christian religion, by substituting the pagan notion of a god who is everywhere equally present, working through nature, dwelling in plants and animals, for the God of Christianity, who has his abode in heaven".

"These words of Jesus state as truly that the Father has shape as that he has a voice. It would be as sensible to deny the one as the other. And that which has shape must be material, and be in some particular place more than another. The same thing is stated in Phil. 2:5, 6. "Let this mind be in you. which was also in Christ Jesus: wiho, being in the form of God. thought it not robbery to be equal with God." This scripture tells us that God has a form, AND that Christ bore the image of his Father".

Now this next part you need to pay attention to John....

...It effectly terminates your argument.

"In view of this we can readily understand why Jesus said, " He that hath seen me hath seen the Father." John 74:9. In form and character he was the very image of the Father, and to see him was to see the Father. But BOTH have form and substance. as the texts declare. In the creation of man in the beginning the Father entered into consultation WITH his Son. and said, " Let US make man in our image, after our likeness." Gen. 1: 26. And the record states, " So God created man in his ou'n image, in the image of God created he him ; male and female created he them." Verse 27. Webster defines " image " as " a similitude of any person or thing. sculptured, drawn, or otherwise made perceptible to the sight."

"If the language of these scriptures does not convey clearly the fact that God is a real person, it is hard to conceive of any language that would do so".

"This language is certainly descriptive of a real being. It speaks of his face, feet, hands, and back parts".

"A similar description is given by John. Rev. i: 12-18. Both of these are descriptions of a real being before whom angels stand. They speak of his head, hair, eyes. feet, hands, and face. To treat this as figurative is to make the most sublime description of the eternal God ever written by the pen of mortals, meaningless".

In the following section of the same article the author uses Ellen White to make his point.

"Another servant oi the Lord beheld in vision the same glorious image, and has given a similar description. " I saw a throne, and on it sal the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance, and admired his lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered him. I asked Jesus if his Father had a form like himself. He said he had, but I could not behold it, for, said he, if you should once behold the glory of his person, you would cease to exist." " Early Writings," page 45-".

_______END of Summary Statements of the 1905 Signs of the Times____

I believe the statement in EW 45. But to believe that God the Father is a real and personal Being and has a body and parts does not require us to conclude as you do that SDAs taught that God's body is precisely like our own.

[phkrause]

I am with you on this John317. It is very clear to me too.

And me three...

[John317]

...

These statements are IDENTICAL to those the Church was making in the 1850's through the life of Ellen White....

...Ellen White herself charged Kellogg belief that "God the Holy Spirit.

...Destroyed the personality of God EXACTLY as did the many authors of your own publications.

Kellogg's views were not only of the Holy Spirit but included the first person of the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is able to be everywhere at once. Therefore Kellogg's view of the Holy Spirit being everywhere at once did not destroy the personality of God. What destroyed the personality of God was Kellogg's teaching that the first Person of the Godhead was also everywhere at once. Kellogg taught that God was in all living things, literally in the water we drink and in which we take our baths.

Quote:

The anti-Trinitarian members of the SDA Church throughout Ellen's life had ZERO problems....

...In calling Jesus "God" - they did it all the time.

They generally referred to Him as "the Son of God" and as "the only begotten," etc.

Can you quote the anti-Trinitarians who called Jesus "God"? Please quote and give references.

[Pastor_Chick]

To Adam in his innocence was granted communion, direct, free, and happy, with his Maker. After his transgression, God would communicate to man only through Christ and angels. (Signs of the Times, Jan. 30, 1879)

All the communion between heaven and the fallen race has been through Christ. (Patriarchs & Prophets p. 366)

Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father,--one in nature, in character, and in purpose,--the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. By Christ the Father wrought in the creation of all heavenly beings. "By Him were all things created, that are in heaven, . . . whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers" (Colossians 1:16); and to Christ, equally with the Father, all heaven gave allegiance. (The Great Controversy, p. 493)

The foregoing statements that are "inspired of God" reveal the same thing -- three witnesses to the fact.

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. (Col. 3:11)

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20)

Christ in you, the hope of glory: (Col. 1:27)

[John317]

....The anti-Trinitarian members of the SDA Church throughout Ellen's life had ZERO problems....

...They also had ZERO problems in using personal pronouns for the Holy Spirit.

Who are the anti-Trinitarians who did this? I am not denying that any of them referred to the Holy Spirit as "He," and "Him," but I would like to know which ones you have in mind, and would also like to see examples of their having done so.

Quote:

Yet when Ellen says the SAME things the anti Pioneers say it somehow means the direct opposite of everthing else SAID THE SAME WAY.

Please give several examples of this.

Quote:

The Watchman, May 1931

If man was made in God's image, God himself must be a personal Being. But there are other particulars given about the person of God which substantiate this. God has a face (Exodus 33:20, Revelation 20: 11); God has hair (Daniel 7:9); God has eyes (2 Chronicles, 16:9); God has nostrils (Psalm 18:15); God has organs (Isaiah 30:27, 28); God has a back (Exodus 33:21-23);

God has shoulders (Deuteronomy 33:12); God has hands (Isaiah 49:16; Deuteronomy 33: 2); God has fingers (Psalm 8:3); God has feet (Psalm 18:9).

So John, if Seventh-day Adventists believed that the Father had a MATERIAL BODY with all the members and parts of a perfect man - WOULD you consider a man who was born WITHOUT a bowel a perfect man? I would really like your answer to that John317.

God the Father is not a human being. He had a body and parts, as the Bible and Ellen White describe, but neither the Bible nor Ellen White speak of God as having a body exactly like human beings have. Therefore, there's no cause to talk about God's having all the parts that you have spoken of. God does not reproduce, nor does God have all the other bodily functions that humans have. Ellen White's teaching is in line with Scripture, and none of it requires the conclusion that you have drawn-- that SDAs taught or teach that God has every particular part of the human body just like people have.

[Pastor_Chick]

The Holy Spirit is a distinct personification of Christ, but not distinct from Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ's name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality. (20MR p. 324.2 Taken from Manuscript 93, 1893)

After His ascension He [Jesus] was to be absent in person; but through the Comforter He would still be with them, and they were not to spend their time in mourning. (DA 277)

The Saviour is our Comforter. This I have proved Him to be. (8MR; July 16, 1892)

As by faith we look to Jesus, our faith pierces the shadow, and we adore God for His wondrous love in giving Jesus the Comforter. (19MR No. 1405 Preston, Melbourne, July 26, 1892 p. 297; Sons and Daughters of God p.124)

There is no comforter like Christ, so tender and so true. He is touched with the feeling of our infirmities. His Spirit speaks to the heart. (RH, Oct 26, 1897)

He is coming to us by His Holy Spirit today. Let us recognize Him now; then we shall recognize Him when He comes in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. (RH, April 30, 1901)

While Jesus ministers in the sanctuary above, He is still by His Spirit the minister of the church on earth. (DA 166)

He gives them His Holy Spirit, the manifestation of His presence and favor. (9T 230; 1909)

Before the disciples could fulfill their official duties in connection with the church, Christ breathed His Spirit upon them. (DA 805)

Jesus is waiting to breathe upon all his disciples, and give them the inspiration of his sanctifying spirit, and transfuse the vital influence from himself to his people… Christ is to live in his human agents. (ST, Oct 3, 1892)

The Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the only begotten Son of God, binds the human agent, body, soul, and spirit, to the perfect, divine-human nature of Christ. (RH, April 5, 1906)

"The words that I speak are spirit and life" John 6:63. Christ is not here referring to His doctrine, but to His person, the divinity of His character. (1SM 249)

[Gustave]

They generally referred to Him as "the Son of God" and as "the only begotten," etc.

Can you quote the anti-Trinitarians who called Jesus "God"? Please quote and give references

Sure, I've given you MANY already yet for some reason you keep forgetting them....

...Happy to help you John.

_____________________________________________________

Adventist Review and Herald, April 17, 1883

*Question to the Editor:

Will you please favor me with those scriptures which plainly say that

Christ is a created being ? J. c.

*ANSWER :

You are mistaken in supposing that S. D. Adventists teach that Christ was ever created. They believe, on the contrary, that he was "begotten" of the Father, and that he can PROPERLY be called GOD and worshiped as such. They believe, also, that the worlds, and everything which is, was created by Christ in conjunction with the Father. THEY believe, HOWEVER, that somewhere in the eternal ages of the past there was a point at which Christ came into existence. THEY think that it is necessary that God should have antedated Christ in his being, in order that Christ could have been begotten of him, and sustain to him the relation of son*. THEY hold to the distinct PERSONALITY of the Father and Son, *rejecting as absurd THAT feature of Trinitarianism which insists that God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three persons, and yet but one person. S. D Adventists hold that God and Christ are one in the sense that Christ prayed that his disciples might be one *; i. e.,* one in spirit, purpose, and labor*. See " Fundamental Principles of S. D.Adventists," published at this Office. Price, 4 cts

________________________________________________

In the SDA Rubric of Ellen White God is the Father ONLY and ONLY He is "self existent"...

...Even though there was NO PROBELM whatsoever in calling Jesus God and worshipping Him as such.

What Kellogg had started to do was AFFIRM that the Holy Spirit WAS GOD exactly like The Father was "GOD"....

...Which is absolutely CORRECT if one accepts the Trinity Doctrine.

By Kellogg affirming The Holy Spirit was "GOD" exactly like the Father was God....

...Ellen and the Pioneers took that as an ATTACK on the Personality of God.

...Because in their view "GOD" was a Person with a material body, hair, eyes, bowel, nose, etc.

The Trinitarian Doctrine AFFIRMS God, Christ & the Holy Spirit ARE ONE in Substance, essence or Nature...

...This means that the Holy Spirit is AS MUCH God as the Father and Son are God.

...And that IN THAT WAY they are "ONE".

The SDA rubric requires that Christ and God are ONE in the SAME WAY....

...That Christ and His disciples AND followers are ONE.

...One in UNITY, PURPOSE, LABOR, SPIRIT, etc.

...Eventually the light bulb is going to pop on in your head and you will clearly see this John317.

The facts of this issue are now wrecking havoc with your denomination...

...And I can assure you it's going to be getting nothing but WORSE.

As a Trinitarian myself I praise God that the SDA Church is doing what it can to develop the Doctrine of the Trinity....

...The point I'm coming at this from is that Ellen REJECTED the current SDA teaching on this issue.

...And used her "prophetic gift" against the Trinity.

This puts Adventism in a very bad place as the GC will eventually have to dump Ellen White as a prophet...

...OR DUMP the Trinity.

...The duplicity game is OVER John317.

[John317]

Adventist Review and Herald, April 17, 1883

*Question to the Editor:

Will you please favor me with those scriptures which plainly say that

Christ is a created being ? J. c.

*ANSWER :

You are mistaken in supposing that S. D. Adventists teach that Christ was ever created. They believe, on the contrary, that he was "begotten" of the Father, and that he can PROPERLY be called GOD and worshiped as such. They believe, also, that the worlds, and everything which is, was created by Christ in conjunction with the Father. THEY believe, HOWEVER, that somewhere in the eternal ages of the past there was a point at which Christ came into existence. THEY think that it is necessary that God should have antedated Christ in his being, in order that Christ could have been begotten of him, and sustain to him the relation of son*. THEY hold to the distinct PERSONALITY of the Father and Son, *rejecting as absurd THAT feature of Trinitarianism which insists that God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three persons, and yet but one person. S. D Adventists hold that God and Christ are one in the sense that Christ prayed that his disciples might be one *; i. e.,* one in spirit, purpose, and labor*. See " Fundamental Principles of S. D.Adventists," published at this Office. Price, 4 cts

________________________________________________

Uriah Smith, the editor of the RH, believed that Christ was a created being. He believed this and taught it in Thoughts On Revelation.

The above statement is wrong to say that Trinitarianism insists that the three persons of the Trinity are "one person."

It is also wrong about Christ being "begotton," or having a beginning of His existence. Christ is eternal, infinite, and self-existent. The life that is in Him is original with Him. His life is unborrowed and underived.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Adventist Review and Herald, April 17, 1883

*Question to the Editor:

Will you please favor me with those scriptures which plainly say that

Christ is a created being ? J. c.

*ANSWER :

You are mistaken in supposing that S. D. Adventists teach that Christ was ever created. They believe, on the contrary, that he was "begotten" of the Father, and that he can PROPERLY be called GOD and worshiped as such. They believe, also, that the worlds, and everything which is, was created by Christ in conjunction with the Father. THEY believe, HOWEVER, that somewhere in the eternal ages of the past there was a point at which Christ came into existence. THEY think that it is necessary that God should have antedated Christ in his being, in order that Christ could have been begotten of him, and sustain to him the relation of son*. THEY hold to the distinct PERSONALITY of the Father and Son, *rejecting as absurd THAT feature of Trinitarianism which insists that God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three persons, and yet but one person. S. D Adventists hold that God and Christ are one in the sense that Christ prayed that his disciples might be one *; i. e.,* one in spirit, purpose, and labor*. See " Fundamental Principles of S. D.Adventists," published at this Office. Price, 4 cts

________________________________________________

Uriah Smith, the editor of the RH, believed that Christ was a created being. He believed this and taught it in Thoughts On Revelation.

Did the article NOT say that it was proper to call Jesus God?

[John317]

Did the article NOT say that it was proper to call Jesus God?

Yes. Do you have examples where anti-Trinitarians call Christ "God"?

[John317]

....In the SDA Rubric of Ellen White God is the Father ONLY and ONLY He is "self existent"...

...Even though there was NO PROBELM whatsoever in calling Jesus God and worshipping Him as such.

This is wrong. Ellen White believed and wrote that Christ is eternal, infinite, omnipotent and self-existent. She wrote that Christ's life is original, unborrowed, underived.

[John317]

...What Kellogg had started to do was AFFIRM that the Holy Spirit WAS GOD exactly like The Father was "GOD"....

...Which is absolutely CORRECT if one accepts the Trinity Doctrine.

By Kellogg affirming The Holy Spirit was "GOD" exactly like the Father was God....

...Ellen and the Pioneers took that as an ATTACK on the Personality of God.

...Because in their view "GOD" was a Person with a material body, hair, eyes, bowel, nose, etc.

The Trinitarian Doctrine AFFIRMS God, Christ & the Holy Spirit ARE ONE in Substance, essence or Nature...

...This means that the Holy Spirit is AS MUCH God as the Father and Son are God.

...And that IN THAT WAY they are "ONE".

But this is not the problem with Kellogg. SDAs believe that the Holy Spirit is God as much as the Father is God. But we do not believe that Holy Spirit and God the Father are exactly alike in form and personality. The holy Spirit is able to be everywhere at once.

It is also wrong to think that Ellen White took Kellogg's view of the Holy Spirit as an attack on the personality of God. Kellogg was saying that God the Father was everywhere at once. SDAs believe that God the Father is a person with a body and parts. This is what the Bible teaches and what Ellen White believed and taught.

You are right that the Holy Spirit is as much God as the Father and the Son are God. Ellen White teaches the same in Evangelism 615-617. The Holy Spirit is all the fullness of the Godhead. So is the Father and so is the Son.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Did the article NOT say that it was proper to call Jesus God?

Yes. Do you have examples where anti-Trinitarians call Christ "God"?

Uriah Smith just called Jesus God in his answer to the question...

...Do you not consider U. Smith an anti-Trinitarian?

[John317]

The SDA rubric requires that Christ and God are ONE in the SAME WAY....

...That Christ and His disciples AND followers are ONE.

...One in UNITY, PURPOSE, LABOR, SPIRIT, etc.

...Eventually the light bulb is going to pop on in your head and you will clearly see this John317.

That is exactly what Ellen White taught and what I already believe. The Father, the Son, an the Holy Spirit are one in nature, character, and purpose, but not in person.

Christ's followes are to be one in unity, purpose, labor, and Spirit. That is, we are to be in the unity that the Holy Spirit brings.

I see this clearly already, but it is not what Catholics and many other Protestants believe it to mean. The Holy Spirit will never bring people to unity on the platform of disobedience to God's commandments.

[Gustave]

But this is not the problem with Kellogg. SDAs believe that the Holy Spirit is God as much as the Father is God. But we do not believe that Holy Spirit and God the Father are exactly alike in form and personality. The holy Spirit is able to be everywhere at once.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

The SDA rubric requires that Christ and God are ONE in the SAME WAY....

...That Christ and His disciples AND followers are ONE.

...One in UNITY, PURPOSE, LABOR, SPIRIT, etc.

...Eventually the light bulb is going to pop on in your head and you will clearly see this John317.

That is exactly what Ellen White taught and what I already believe. The Father, the Son, an the Holy Spirit are one in nature, character, and purpose, but not in person.

Christ's followes are to be one in unity, purpose, labor, and Spirit. That is, we are to be in the unity that the Holy Spirit brings.

I see this clearly already, but it is not what Catholics and many other Protestants believe it to mean. The Holy Spirit will never bring people to unity on the platform of disobedience to God's commandments.

You will NOTE that Uriah Smith USED Ellen White to make his point....

...About HOW God and Christ were ONE.

...NO Orthodox Christian teaching has EVER affirmed that Christ is the Father, Holy Spirit or vise-versa.

The Orthodox Christian teaching is that there is ONE Divine Substance which is God...

...And three distinct Persons co-equally OWN this Substance.

...And THAT is the way in which they are ONE in addition to being of like mind or UNITY.

This does not work with "God" is a PERSONALITY with a body and form and ORGANS!

...And Christ prior to the Incarnation was a PERSONALITY with a body and form and ORGANS.

...And you know this perfectly well.

[John317]

The facts of this issue are now wrecking havoc with your denomination...

...And I can assure you it's going to be getting nothing but WORSE.

This is an exaggeration in terms of what is going on in the denomination at the present time. But as for whether things will be getting worse--- it will no doubt come to the point where it will appear as if the church is going to fall, but it will not fall.

I fully expect that the time will come when all of our schools and insitutions will be closed and most of the SDAs will abandoned the faith. I don't think there's any question about that. As a church, we've known this for a very long time. I suspect that only 1 in 1000 will stand; the rest will fall away. We won't even be able to rely on pastors and teachers or on our families and friends. Each individual will have to stand on his own.

Quote:

As a Trinitarian myself I praise God that the SDA Church is doing what it can to develop the Doctrine of the Trinity....

...The point I'm coming at this from is that Ellen REJECTED the current SDA teaching on this issue.

...And used her "prophetic gift" against the Trinity.

Ellen White was the main reason that the SDA church decided to accept the Trinity. Her writings from about 1888 to 1906 caused the church to reexamine and study the topic in the Bible, and over time the church as a whole concluded that the Bible supports the doctrine of the Trinity (although not the doctrine as it is expressed in the Church councils.)

You still have yet to show how her quotes that I posted are opposed to the Trinity. All you have done so far is talk about Kellogg and of the beliefs of some of the Pioneers who were wrong on the Trinity. Everyone already knows those people were wrong. So it really doesn't help to discuss what they believed. Ellen White didn't agree with them, nor does the Bible support what they taught about the Godhead.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

This puts Adventism in a very bad place as the GC will eventually have to dump Ellen White as a prophet...

...OR DUMP the Trinity.

...The duplicity game is OVER John317.

It's apparent that this is what you hope will happen and what you would like to see.

No doubt some individual SDAs will reject Ellen White, but they have already done that. It is nothing new. Some were doing that in Ellen White's day. People abandon Christ and the Christian faith, too. This ought not to be too surprising.

It's pretty obvious from your posts here that you don't know the SDA church or our doctrines and our history as well as you think you do. You get many things twisted.

[John317]

The Holy Spirit is a distinct personification of Christ, but not distinct from Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ's name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality. (20MR p. 324.2 Taken from Manuscript 93, 1893)

Where does Ellen White say that the Holy Spirit is not distinct from Christ?

The quote here saying that the Holy Spirit personifies Christ but is a distinct personality from Christ would appear to contradict your claim.

[John317]

You will NOTE that Uriah Smith USED Ellen White to make his point....

...About HOW God and Christ were ONE.

...NO Orthodox Christian teaching has EVER affirmed that Christ is the Father, Holy Spirit or vise-versa.

Ellen White never said that Christ is the Father or that the Holy Spirit is Christ.

Where does Uriah Smith use Ellen White to make his point that God and Christ are ONE? Please point out the sentence. I don't see it.

Quote:

You are mistaken in supposing that S. D. Adventists teach that Christ was ever created. They believe, on the contrary, that he was "begotten" of the Father, and that he can PROPERLY be called GOD and worshiped as such. They believe, also, that the worlds, and everything which is, was created by Christ in conjunction with the Father. THEY believe, HOWEVER, that somewhere in the eternal ages of the past there was a point at which Christ came into existence. THEY think that it is necessary that God should have antedated Christ in his being, in order that Christ could have been begotten of him, and sustain to him the relation of son*. THEY hold to the distinct PERSONALITY of the Father and Son, *rejecting as absurd THAT feature of Trinitarianism which insists that God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three persons, and yet but one person. S. D Adventists hold that God and Christ are one in the sense that Christ prayed that his disciples might be one *; i. e.,* one in spirit, purpose, and labor*. See " Fundamental Principles of S. D.Adventists," published at this Office. Price, 4 cts

Do you believe that Ellen White ever talks about a time when the pre-incarnate Christ came into existence? If so, please quote the statement and give the reference.

It might be of interst to you to know that only a few years before he wrote the above statement, Uriah Smith believed that Christ was a created being. He even referred to an "evolution" within the Godhead. My point is that the SDAs of that time were in a process of change on this topic. That is one reason it is impossible to base our beliefs on them in regard to the Trinity, and also why it's nonsense to think that they all agreed on the Godhead.

[John317]

...The Orthodox Christian teaching is that there is ONE Divine Substance which is God...

...And three distinct Persons co-equally OWN this Substance.

...And THAT is the way in which they are ONE in addition to being of like mind or UNITY.

SDAs don't really care what the Orthodox teaching is. But we are pretty close to agreement on the Trinity as you've described it here.

Quote:

This does not work with "God" is a PERSONALITY with a body and form and ORGANS!

...And Christ prior to the Incarnation was a PERSONALITY with a body and form and ORGANS.

...And you know this perfectly well.

The Bible teaches that the Father is a personality with a body and form and parts.

It also teaches that before the Incarnation, Christ was a personality with a body and form and parts. He was known as the Archangel Michael. Phil. 2: 6 says that Christ was in the form of God. He is now, and forever will remain, the God-man.