What Ellen White Has Written About the Godhead

[John317]

All good quotes, Pastor Chuck. Thanks. :-)

[Gustave]

This is an exaggeration in terms of what is going on in the denomination at the present time. But as for whether things will be getting worse--- it will no doubt come to the point where it will appear as if the church is going to fall, but it will not fall.

I fully expect that the time will come when all of our schools and insitutions will be closed and most of the SDAs will abandoned the faith. I don't think there's any question about that. As a church, we've known this for a very long time. I suspect that only 1 in 1000 will stand; the rest will fall away. We won't even be able to rely on pastors and teachers or on our families and friends. Each individual will have to stand on his own.

[miz3]

John, for the simple reason that the translators THEMSELVES thought the Holy Spirit was a 'he' is the reason why the 'he' is found in those words. You and I were not there when Jesus said these words so the argument lacks any valid support as you are attempting to do. If you want the 'Family Of God' to be a 'gay' family of all three males, then that is your choice.

Just the fact that the Holy Spirit and the Father created both male and female in their likness supports my understanding of a real family of God. It would be like Satan to cause this 'family' to be twisted as Satan twisted all types of sexual acts to get people to believe that the 'Family Of God' is a bunch of 'Men'. To me this is truely sick!

There is nothing in the Bible anywhere that supports even remotely what you are asserting.

What you are asserting is BLASPHEMOUS! PURE AND SIMPLE!

God refers to Himself as a "male" and the Bible never ever refers to any of the Godhead in the "female" either by direct fact or even by inference!

What you assert is BLASPHEMOUS INFERENCE!

I am very offended by your statements. However, I don't count but God does and the Word of God does not support your views on this at all. Therefore God is offended by your unScriptural inferences.

[Dr. Rich]

Miz3: "There is nothing in the Bible anywhere that supports even remotely what you are asserting.What you are asserting is BLASPHEMOUS! PURE AND SIMPLE!God refers to Himself as a "male" and the Bible never ever refers to any of the Godhead in the "female" either by direct fact or even by inference!What you assert is BLASPHEMOUS INFERENCE!I am very offended by your statements. However, I don't count but God does and the Word of God does not support your views on this at all. Therefore God is offended by your unScriptural inferences."

Every word for the Spirit or Holy Spirit in the OT is a female noun so get used to it.

[miz3]

Dr. Rich,

The Bible never ever describes the Godhead in sexual terms. I don't care what your Greek and Hebrew grammar or any other linguistic junk says. There is no Biblical proof for your unHoly assertions. The Bible never refers to the Holy Spirit as a "she" or "female".

Languages like French and Spanish and Hebrew and Greek are always making their vocabulary either feminine or masculine but that does not mean that the said noun is itself a sexually feminine or sexually masculine item.

For instance, "le crayon" is French and is translated into English as "the pencil". The pencil in French is a "male noun" however pencils have no sexual context whatsoever just because they are made masculine nouns.

Second example: "la chat" is French for "the cat". This is grammatically a feminine noun. I ask you Dr. Rich, does this mean that all cats are feminine? No! Of course not. All the male cats (Toms) would not like that. It is not only silly but stupid to infer that all cats are sexually feminine. We know for a fact that cats are both genders regardless of the grammatical designation.

The same is true for Greek and Hebrew nouns. They carry a masculine or feminine label for grammatical purposes only. Such linguistics is never ever used for sexual purposes.

Come on Dr. Rich get a real life about these things. You are just proving how silly you are!

[Gustave]

Ellen White never said that Christ is the Father or that the Holy Spirit is Christ.

[John317]

This is an exaggeration in terms of what is going on in the denomination at the present time. But as for whether things will be getting worse--- it will no doubt come to the point where it will appear as if the church is going to fall, but it will not fall.

I fully expect that the time will come when all of our schools and insitutions will be closed and most of the SDAs will abandoned the faith. I don't think there's any question about that. As a church, we've known this for a very long time. I suspect that only 1 in 1000 will stand; the rest will fall away. We won't even be able to rely on pastors and teachers or on our families and friends. Each individual will have to stand on his own.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

A dead ringer for David Koresh's words to his flock....

...He predicted that the Govt would come knocking on his compounds door.

...And when the Govt did come - His flock was convinced David Koresh WAS a true prophet.

...Did you see the interviews?

If you think this, you've misunderstood what I'm saying.

Yes, I did see them. I saw them when they were happening. Nothing I've said supports what Koresh did. He was completely wrong. Frankly he was nuts. He did just the opposite of what both Scripture and Ellen White has said we should be doing. He was little better than Jim Jones. If the people who followed Koresh had applied the Bible tests of a genuine prophet, they would have seen that he was a false prophet. Many people tried to help them to see their error, but they refused to listen. I can't imagine Jesus or Paul or Peter or John doing those things.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

But this is not the problem with Kellogg. SDAs believe that the Holy Spirit is God as much as the Father is God. But we do not believe that Holy Spirit and God the Father are exactly alike in form and personality. The holy Spirit is able to be everywhere at once.

NOW SDA's have this as official teaching ( that the Holy Spirit is as much God as the Father and Son )...

One reason we have it is that in the 1890s through 1905, Ellen White wrote statements that caused SDAs to restudy the subject and they found the Bible to teach that the Holy Spirit is as much God as the Father and Christ are God.

Our official doctrines on this topic don't contradict what Ellen White believed and taught. They do, however, clearly contradict what most of our leading Pioneers believed and wrote on the subject.

If you believe our official doctrines on this are opposed to Ellen White's statements, please quote the doctrinal statements and the EGW statements that you believe contradict them.

[John317]

Ellen White was the main reason that the SDA church decided to accept the Trinity. Her writings from about 1888 to 1906 caused the church to reexamine and study the topic in the Bible, and over time the church as a whole concluded that the Bible supports the doctrine of the Trinity (although not the doctrine as it is expressed in the Church councils.)

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Of course she was the main reason used.....

...After it was determined that the SDA Church could never be a maga church without accepting the Trinity.

It's not a matter of Ellen White being "used". It is a matter of what she wrote between 1888 and 1905. It began with the 1888 General Conference, and continued with Patriarachs and Prophets, Desire of Ages, and the statements of Ellen White found in such books as Evangelism 614-617.

There is no connection between wanting to be a "mega church" and the acceptance of the Trinity doctrine. The SDA church began to accept the Trinity as far back as 1898 and it continued until 1913 when F.M Wilcox wrote in the Review and Herald that the SDA Church accepts the Trinity.

Have you read the experience of M.L. Andreasen in 1909? Those things had nothing whatever to do with any desire to be a "mega church." It had everything to do with wanting to find the truth about the Godhead. It wasn't even an organized study. It was personal and individual. You have to remember that the SDA church had scholars who were anti-Trinitarian clear up to the 1940s, and these men were never told that they had to change their belief.

By the way, our church also had Trinitarian ministers in the 1800s, and they weren't told they had to change. You seem conveniently to ignore these facts in the case.

[John317]

I whole-heartedly agree with you, miz3. It is blamsphemous and offensive!

[John317]

Ellen White was the main reason that the SDA church decided to accept the Trinity. Her writings from about 1888 to 1906 caused the church to reexamine and study the topic in the Bible, and over time the church as a whole concluded that the Bible supports the doctrine of the Trinity (although not the doctrine as it is expressed in the Church councils.)

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...Only as I've already demonstrated Ellen said NOTHING that the anti-trinity pioneers said.

Actually, Ellen G. White said many things that the Anti-Trinity pioneers never said.

Please find where any of the anti-Trinitarians said that "Christ's life is original, unborrowed, underived." DA 530.

Also find where anti-Trinitarians said that "there are three living persons or three living beings in the heavenly trio."

Find where the anti-Trinitarians said that the Holy Spirit is all the fullness of the Godhead, that He is the "third person of the Godhead" and that He is "as much of a person as God is a person."

Also find where the anti-Trinitarians wrote that the pre-Incarnate Christ was infinite, self-existent, and omnipotent, and was in close fellowship with the eternal God from all eternity.

Can you find where anti-Trinitarians said that Christ was "God essentially and in the highest sense"?

Finally, can you find where anti-Trinitarians said the following things:

3 Holiest Beings

3 Living Persons

3 Eternal Heavenly Dignitaries

3 Highest Powers

3 Great Worthies

3 Divine Agencies

3 Distinct Eternal Persons

3 Distinct Personalities

3-fold Name of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit

Heavenly Trio

If you know of anti-Trinitarians who said these things, please give the quote and the reference.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...What you are suggesting is that Uriah Smith "could also have led the SDA church into a belief in the Trinity".

Absolutely not. Uriah Smith never accepted the Trinity. Nor have I ever implied that Smith could have also led the SDA church into the belief in the Trinity.

Please reread what I wrote. I'm unaware of anything I said that could have possibily given you this impression. If I did, please give the quote so I can review it.

[John317]

You still have yet to show how her quotes that I posted are opposed to the Trinity.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

If the anti-Trinitarian SDA Pioneers could say that Jesus was God and that the Holy Spirit is a PERSON....

...Why do certain SDA's go gaga when Ellen said the same things?

Because of everything else she said, such as the quotes found in Evangelism 614-617. Also the quotes found on the first several posts in this thread. They are posted again below for your convenience:

">>The three<powers of the Godhead<<,>the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit<, are pledged to be their strength and their efficiency in their new life in Christ Jesus."—Australian Union Conference Record, October 7, 1907.

"We are to co-operate with>the three< highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God."—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, 51 and (Evangelism, 617).

The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin."—Manuscript 145, 1901. (Evangelism, 616).

"The work of salvation is not a small matter, but so vast that the highest authorities are taken hold of by the expressed faith of the human agent. The eternal Godhead—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost—is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent."—Upward Look, 148.

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, >the three< holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men to overcome the powers of darkness. All the facilities of heaven are pledged to those who by their baptismal vows have entered into a covenant with God."—5 Bible Commentary, 1110. (Manuscript 92,1901).

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism, to receive the candidates who have renounced the world and have received Christ into the soul temple. These candidates have entered into the family of God, and their names are inscribed in the Lamb’s book of life."—6 Bible Commentary, 1075. (Manuscript 27, 1900).

"When we have accepted Christ, and in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit have pledged ourselves to serve God, the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit— >the three< dignitaries and powers of heaven—pledge themselves that every facility shall be given to us if we carry out our baptismal vows to "come out from among them, and be . . separate . . and touch not the unclean thing."— 6 Bible Commentary, 1075. (Manuscript 85, 1901).

"Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit . . Have you been born again? Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then cooperate with >the three< great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf."—7 Bible Commentary, 908; Signs, June 19, 1091 (Manuscript 11, 1901).

"The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from >the three<->>PERSONS<<—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."—6 Bible Commentary, 1074.

"The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by >the power of God in>>the third<>PERSON<< of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit<."—Series A, no. 10, 37 (Evangelism, 617).

"Evil had been accumulating for centuries, and could only be restrained and resisted by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, >>the third Person<<>of the Godhead<, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power."—10 Manuscript Releases, 63 (Letter 8, February 6, 1896; Series A, No. 10, 25; Testimonies to Ministers, 392,)

>"There are>>THREE LIVING PERSONS<<of the heavenly>>TRIO<<; in the name of >these three< great powers—The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—Those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ."—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, 63. (Evangelism, 615.

" ‘If a man love Me. He will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with Him."—Fundamentals of Christian Education, 125. (Manuscript Releases, 19, 153).

"Keep yourselves where >the three< great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, can be your efficiency. These powers work with the one who gives himself unreservedly to God. The strength of heaven is at the command of God’s believing ones."—In Heavenly Places, 176 (4 Signs, 512; Southern Watchman, February 23, 1904 ).

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost supply the power that makes him victorious in every conflict with the prince of darkness."—6 Manuscript Releases, 167 (Letter 200, December 15, 1902).

"They pledge themselves to devote their lives to God’s service; and >the three< great powers in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, pledge Themselves to cooperate with them, to work in and through them."—6 Manuscript Releases, 166 (Manuscript 118, October 6, 1902).

">The three< highest powers in the universe are pledged to labor with those who will seek to save the lost."—5 Review, 533, col. 2.

"In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, man is laid in his watery grave, buried with Christ in baptism, and raised from the water to live the new life of loyalty to God >The three< great powers in heaven are witnesses; they are invisible but present."—Manuscript 57, 1900 (6 Bible Commentary, 1074).

"If man, in acquiring the Christian graces, works on the plan of addition, God has pledged Himself to work in his behalf upon the plan of multiplication. "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord." The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from >the three<>>PERSONS<<—The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."—Manuscript 57, 1900 (6 Bible Commentary, 1074).

"At our baptism we pledged ourselves to break all connection with Satan and his agencies, and to put heart and mind and soul into the work of extending the kingdom of God. All heaven is working for this object. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are pledged to cooperate with sanctified human instrumentalities. If we are true to our vow, there is opened to us a door of communication with heaven—a door that no human hand or satanic agency can close."—Review May 17, 1906. (6 Bible Commentary, 1075.

"On that occasion [baptism] we pledge ourselves, in the presence of >the three< great heavenly Powers, to come out from the world and be separate."—6 Manuscript Release 167 (Manuscript 130, October 27, 1902).

"When you took these vows, you pledged yourself, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, that you would live unto God, and you have no right to break this pledge. The help of >the three< great Powers is placed at your disposal."—5 Review, 143 (Receiving Christ, 178).

"Baptized into the>>>THREEFOLD NAME<<< . . at the very entrance of their Christian life . . the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism."—6 Bible Commentary, 1075.

"Those who submit to the solemn rite of baptism pledge themselves to devote their lives to God’s service; and >the three< great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, pledge themselves to cooperate with them, to work in and through them."—4 Signs, 282 (March 11, 1903).

">The three< great powers of heaven pledged Themselves to cooperate with you in your efforts to live the new life in Christ."—5 Review, 142.

"As a Christian submits to the solemn rite of baptism, >the three< highest powers in the universe,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,—place Their approval on this act, pledging Themselves to exert Their power in his behalf as he strives to honor God."—6 Manuscript Release, 26 (Letter 53, January 26, 1904; 4 Signs, 399, August 16, 1905).

"The presence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, >the three< highest powers in the universe and those in whose name the believer is baptized, is pledged to be with every striving soul."—Pacific Union Recorder, September 2, 1908.

"The rite of baptism is administered in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. >These three< great powers of heaven pledge Themselves to be the efficiency of all who submit to this ordinance, and who faithfully keep the vow they then make."—6 Manuscript Release, 27 (Manuscript 78, 1905).

"When you went down into the water and were baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, >these three< great powers of heaven pledged Themselves to give you power and grace to resist every temptation to dishonor God."—19 Manuscript Releases, 235.

"When you gave yourself to Christ, you made a pledge in the presence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,—>the three<great >>personal<< dignitaries of heaven."—7 Bible Commentary, 959 (Sons and Daughters of God, 351).

"No requirement is laid upon man that Christ has not obeyed. We can overcome as He overcame, if we will avail ourselves of the help of >the three< great powers of heaven, who are waiting to answer the demand made upon Them by God’s people for power to defeat satanic agencies."—Notebook Leaflets, 124.

"Let us not forget our baptismal vow. In the presence of >the three< highest powers of the heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,—we have pledged ourselves to do the will of Him who, over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, declared, ‘I am the resurrection and the life.’ "—5 Review, 45.

"There is to be the imprint of the . . >threefold powers< in the heavenly world . . >The three< great and glorious >heavenly characters< are present on the occasion of baptism. All the human capabilities are to be henceforth consecrated powers to do service for God in representing the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost upon whom they depend. All heaven is represented by >these three< in covenant relation with the new life."—6 Manuscript Releases, 389.

& Then there is this one:> "The Father cannot be described by the things of earth. The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight.

The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The Word of God declares Him to be ‘the express image of His person.’ ‘God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’ Here is shown the personality of the Father.

>>The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit<< in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour."—Evangelism, 614-615.

"The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible. ‘The Lord’s throne is in heaven’ (Psalm 11:4); yet >>by His Spirit<< >He is everywhere present<."—Education, 132.

"You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life—to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of >the three< holiest Beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling."—Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, 367.

"We are ordained unto God to bear fruit. Was this not our experience when we were led down into the water and baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? What did that mean? —It meant that >the three< great Powers in heaven were pledged to keep us so long as we remain one with Christ, united to the vine."—6 Manuscript Releases, 29 (Sermon given March 10, 1908).

"Those who have been baptized can claim the help of >the three< great Worthies in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."—Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, 366.

"When I feel oppressed, and hardy know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon >the three< great Worthies."—7 Manuscript Releases, 267-268; Manuscript Release 307, 2, 4 (Sermon given October 20, 1906).

"In whose name are we baptized? In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost—>the three< highest powers in the heavenly courts."—Manuscript Release 135, 4 (Camp meeting sermon given June 27, 1907).

"We are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, and these>three<great, infinite powers are unitedly pledged to work in our behalf if we cooperate with them."—1901 General Conference Bulletin, 36-37 (Lift Him Up, 109).

"No requirement is laid upon man that Christ has not obeyed. We can overcome as He overcame, if we will avail ourselves of the help of>>the three great powers of heaven<<, who are waiting to answer the demand made upon Them by God’s people for power to defeat satanic agencies."—Notebook Leaflets, 124.

"Let us not forget our baptismal vow. In the presence of>>the three< highest powers of the heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit<<,—we have pledged ourselves to do the will of Him who, over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, declared, ‘I am the resurrection and the life.’ "—5 Review, 45.

"There is to be the imprint of the . .>>threefold powers< in the heavenly world<< . .>>The three<great and glorious Heavenly characters<< are present on the occasion of baptism. All the human capabilities are to be henceforth consecrated powers to do service for God in representing>>the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost<< upon whom they depend. All heaven is represented by>>these three<< in covenant relation with the new life."—6 Manuscript Releases, 389.

">>I am Instructed to say..... >>The Father cannot be described by the things of earth.>The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily<, and is>>invisible to mortal sight<<.

>>The Son is >all the fullness of the Godhead manifested<<. The Word of God declares Him to be>‘the express>image<of His person<.’ ‘God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’ Here is shown the personality of the Father.

>>The Comforter<<that>Christ promised to send<after He ascended to heaven, >is The Spirit< in all the fullness of the Godhead<<,>making manifest the power<of divine grace>to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour." >Evangelism, 614-615<.

"You are baptized in>the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost<. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life—to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of >>the three holiest Beings in heaven<<, who are able to keep you from falling."—Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, 367.

"We are ordained unto God to bear fruit. Was this not our experience when we were led down into the water and baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? What did that mean? —It meant that >>the three great Powers in heaven<< were pledged to keep us so long as we remain one with Christ, united to the vine."—6 Manuscript Releases, 29 (Sermon given March 10, 1908).

"Those who have been baptized can claim the help of>>the three great Worthies in heaven<<,—>the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost<."—Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, 366.

"When I feel oppressed, and hardy know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon>>>the three< great Worthies<<."—7 Manuscript Releases, 267-268; Manuscript Release 307, 2, 4 (Sermon given October 20, 1906).

"In whose name are we baptized? In the name of>the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost<—>>the three< highest powers in the heavenly courts<<."—Manuscript Release 135, 4 (Camp meeting sermon given June 27, 1907).

"We are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, and>>these three< great, infinite powers<< are unitedly pledged to work in our behalf if we cooperate with them."—1901 General Conference Bulletin, 36-37 (Lift Him Up, 109).

3 HOLIEST >BEINGS<: Plain words of Truth:

"Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life—to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of >the three holiest *BEINGS * in Heaven,< who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden “with Christ in God,”—wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character."- Manuscript Releases Volume Seven [Nos. 419- 525], Page 268.

"There are three living *PERSONS* of the heavenly TRIO; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ".—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905)

“The Holy Spirit always leads to the Written WORD. The Holy Spirit *IS A PERSON*; for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God.” (Ellen G. White, Manuscript Releases, Volume 7, MR No. 487, 1906..

[John317]

[quote name="Gustave

It is also wrong to think that Ellen White took Kellogg's view of the Holy Spirit as an attack on the personality of God. Kellogg was saying that God the Father was everywhere at once. SDAs believe that God the Father is a person with a body and parts. This is what the Bible teaches and what Ellen White believed and taught.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Kellogg was EXPLICIT that it was "God" the Holy Spirit that was everywhere at once....

...Do you need me to quote this fact' date=' again?

[/quote']

Kellogg gave those explanations in his letters and in interviews with people who were questioning his beliefs. Kellogg altered the way he conveyed his beliefs after he found that their original expressions caused alarm.

But can you find in his published books, such as in The Living Temple, where he says clearly that he was speaking of the Holy Spirit as being everywhere at once?

I find it objectionable for him to say that God is in the water we drink, in the water we bathe in, in the trees, in the food we eat, and that we taste God when we eat and smell God when we smell the flowers. He taught that God takes up His abode in all human beings. He meant this literally, and it is false.

[John317]

...To convince me Ellen led the SDA church into a belief in the Trinity.

...I would need to see some statements OTHER than what I read the anti-Trinitarians to say.

See the quotes on post#459782. Those are not statements that you can find in the writings of anti-Trinitarians

If you think you can, find them and quote them here along with the statements by Ellen G.White.

For instance, where do the anti-Trinitarians use the following langauge in describing their beliefs in the Godhead:

3 Holiest Beings

3 Living Persons

3 Eternal Heavenly Dignitaries

3 Highest Powers

3 Great Worthies

3 Divine Agencies

3 Distinct Eternal Persons

3 Distinct Personalities

3-fold Name of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit

Heavenly Trio

Please show where those things are to be found among the writings of the anti-Trinitarians. Quote them and give the reference.

[John317]

All you have done so far is talk about Kellogg and of the beliefs of some of the Pioneers who were wrong on the Trinity. Everyone already knows those people were wrong. So it really doesn't help to discuss what they believed. Ellen White didn't agree with them' date=' nor does the Bible support what they taught about the Godhead.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

SDA belief was 100% unified that God was a Person ( had a personality )....

...And 100% unified that Christ was a Person ( had a personality ).

...And 100% unified that ONLY the Father was God in the ultimate sense.

You neglect to mention or consider that we had some Trinitarian ministers in our church during the 1800s. So it wasn't as if the entire church was in agreement on these things. However, it is true that all of the main leaders were non-Trinitarian. But we did have a mix of belief on this topic in our church.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Ellen, in speaking of Christ stated that in Him was life eternal, unborrowed, etc....

...This was explicitly what some of the most violent anti-Trinitarians of SDAism said.

Who, for instance? Please quote them and give the reference.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...Therefore that Ellen said what she did fails to demonstrate she meant something different than what those other said.

...When those others said the same thing.[/quote']

You have yet to show that this statement was made by non-Trinitarians.

If we understand the meaning of the English being used, it becomes obvious what is being said. That is why non-Trinitarians like M.L. Andreasen and Robert W. Olson found the words in DA 530 so "shocking" and why those words led to a change in their thinking.

If Christ's life is original with Him, then it did not originate with the Father. That much is obvious. One cannot derive underived life from someone else. It's a contradiction in terms. By definition, it is impossible. If Christ derived His existence and His life from the Father, then His life cannot be said to be underived. That is an impossibility. It would be like claiming to have a round square or a perfectly square triangle.

But again, please quote the anti-Trinitarians who made this statement and give the reference.

[John317]

When Ellen said the Holy Spirit "was a person"....

...Again this was NOTHING DIFFERENT than what the anti-Trinitarians were saying.

Where do anti-Trinitarians say that the Holy Spirit is a "person," one of "three living persons," has a "personality," and a "distinct personality"?

Where do they say that the Holy Spirit is the thrid person of the Godhead," and that the Holy Spirit gave Himself to the working out of the plan of redemption?

Please quote them and give the references.

Originally Posted By: RH Sept 6, 1892

Revew and Herald, Sept 6, 1892

Is God a Spirit?

Question:

If God is a spirit (John 4:24) and at the same time a person (Dan 7:9) would not the same reasoning prove that the Holy Spirit is a PERSON as referred to in John 4: 26?

Answer:

NO - For God is elsewhere described and represented as a Person; but the Holy Spirit is not. The fact that the Holy Spirit is personified John 14 and thus spoken of as acting in a personal and individual manner does NOT prove it to be a person any more than the fact that love is spoken of in 1 Cor 13 as performing certain acts and exercising certain emotions, prove that charity or love is a person

This is false. Both the Bible and Ellen White say things that clearly contradict this. She shows that the Holy Spirit is as much of a person as the Father and Christ are persons, yet she says the Holy Spirit is distinct. There are three persons of the heavenly trio, not two.

Here's the evidence:

3 Holiest Beings

3 Living Persons

3 Eternal Heavenly Dignitaries

3 Highest Powers

3 Great Worthies

3 Divine Agencies

3 Distinct Eternal Persons

3 Distinct Personalities

3-fold Name of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit

Heavenly Trio

Any reasoning person can see that Ellen White believed and taught that there are 3 in the eternal Godhead, not two. The eternal Godhead doesn't change.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Signs of the Times, 1912, Vol 39 # 32

3829 &#151; The Holy Spirit n Personality?

Question:

Can't we say that the Holy Spirit is a

personality, as long as the personal pronoun

is attributed to it? T. A. Z.

Answer:

The use of the personal pronoun is NOT of itself proof that the Holy Spirit is a personality, and yet the work of the Spirit is the work of a personality. By the Spirit both the Father and the Son come personally to every soul that receives the Spirit. In that wonderful sense which no human being can comprehend, the Spirit comes to each soul AS A personality. And yet it does not have what we would call human personality of being in one place only at one time, that is, such personality as has our Lord Himself &#151; in one place as He is in no other place. The Holy Spirit may be in any number of places at one and the same time, bringing the special presence of God in each of those places. In the office of the "Signs of the Times" there are fourteen different telephones all connecting with the manager. The manager may connect all these with him at one and the same time. He could issue a general order so that the foreman of each department could hear his voice at the same time. In a way HE is personally present in every department. Every department hears his voice. The marvelous invention of the telephone makes him present in fifteen different places at the same time. So it is that God's Spirit makes the Father and the Son present in as many different places as God may direct, at one and the same time. We know somewhat of the working. We understand how it is to some extent of the Lord's ways and methods. We see the effects, but we know almost nothing of the nature and the power that Infinity uses to communicate with man. Let us be willing to leave it there. In some instances the Spirit is represented as the great life of God. In some it is spoken of as a power that is poured out and shed forth. To the individual it comes as the representative of the personal God. THEREFORE it may be spoken of as a personality, and looking at it from another view-point, as NOT a personality

Right there, that's an anti-Trinitarian CALLING the Holy Spirit a PERSONALITY....

...We can therefore reject what Ellen said as proving she was in favor of the Trinity.

This is false and is not in line with what either the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy (i.e., the writings of Ellen White) say.

Perhaps if all we had were Ellen White's statements calling the Holy Spirit a personality, you might have a point, but the fact is that we have many, many other statements that say much more. She says, for instance, that the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Godhead. She says that these three living persons or personalities are one in nature, character, and purpose, BUT NOT IN PERSON. She describes the Holy Spirit as feeling pity for the human race and giving Himself to the working out of the plan of salvation.

How anyone can think that Ellen White isn't saying the Holy Spirit is a living person and one of the eternal Godhead, I can't understand. How much clearer could she have been?

[John317]

It's apparent that this is what you hope will happen and what you would like to see.

No doubt some individual SDAs will reject Ellen White, but they have already done that. It is nothing new. Some were doing that in Ellen White's day. People abandon Christ and the Christian faith, too. This ought not to be too surprising.

It's pretty obvious from your posts here that you don't know the SDA church or our doctrines and our history as well as you think you do. You get many things twisted.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

The ironic thing is that it's those who hang their faith on Ellen White being a prophet....

...And are educated in what the SDA Pioneers taught and believed and how they spoke and wrote.

...Are the ones rejecting the Trinity BECAUSE OF Ellen White.

...This is the hard facts of the matter.

I don't see anyone rejecting the Trinity because of Ellen White. They are rejecting it because they are trying to go back to the non-Trinitarian or anti-Trinitarian Pioneers, and they often read Ellen White through the eyes of such Pioneers as Uriah Smith, Loughborough, J.H. Waggoner, and James White. The people you are talking about reject many things that Ellen White wrote and said about it, and they frequently reject some of the things in the Bible, such as Matt. 28: 19.

Only a relative few in the SDA church are rejecting the Trinity, and they are foolish to try to base their beliefs regarding the Godhead on the SDA pioneers. My own grandparents on both sides of my family were among the pioneers-- my grandfather was a minsiter who knew Ellen White-- so I can tell you that the pioneers would never have wanted SDAs to base their beliefs on the pioneers. They would have been the first to urge modern SDAs to study the Bible and Ellen White's writigns to find the truth about the Godhead. The Pioneers were not all in agreement and they were changing their views, so it should be obvious to anyone that they are not the ones we should be basing our beliefs upon. That should only be reserved for the Bible and the writings of God's last-day prophet.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

I've taken the time to read Ellen White AND study the meaning of what she wrote....

...In the context of the VERY PEOPLE who believed her to be a real prophet.

...What I've come up with I've shared with you.

You need to go back and read some more because as I've shown on this Forum and on others, you have your facts and interpretations all mixed up. I am not surprised, since it's easy to tell from your posts that you approach the SDA church and Ellen White with a prejudiced viewpoint. I have yet to hear you say a single postive thing about the SDA church or Ellen White. That is strange considering that the church and Ellen White do have many good and positive characteristics.

What books by her and about her have you read all the way through? What biographies have you read? And as you read, what is your attitude? If people read the Bible with a critical attitude, looking for error and things they can attack, their reading will actually do them harm. Do you pray that God will lead you to the truth even if it is contrary to what you believe today?

[John317]

Ellen White was the main reason that the SDA church decided to accept the Trinity. Her writings from about 1888 to 1906 caused the church to reexamine and study the topic in the Bible, and over time the church as a whole concluded that the Bible supports the doctrine of the Trinity (although not the doctrine as it is expressed in the Church councils.)

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...Only as I've already demonstrated Ellen said NOTHING that the anti-trinity pioneers said.

Explain how the following statements can be misunderstood to be saying things that anti-Trinitarians can agree with:

Quote:

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity.--The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901.

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.)

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. . . .

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906.

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897)

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers.-- We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905) (Ev 616-617)

Notice particularly the last quote. It says that we are to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and that He will work through us and make us workers together with God. Consider everything else she says about the Holy Spirit and the other 2 living persons of the Godhead. When we do that, I can't see how anyone can conclude anything else but that the Godhead is 3 living, distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[John317]

Quote:

When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as this ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents, and Christ was indeed glorified, even with the glory which He had with the Father from all eternity. AA 39

NOTE: "From all eternity." From all eternity means without beginning. God has been God from all eternity. And Christ has been with the eternal God (i.e., the Godhead) "from all eternity."

Notice the following statement regarding the use of "all eternity":

Quote:

Our lifework here is a preparation for the life eternal. The education begun here will not be completed in this life; it will be going forward through all eternity--ever progressing, never completed. {CG 298.4}

In the above "all eternity" means "without end." Similarly when she speaks of Christ's "glory which He had with the Father from all eternity," she means "without beginning." If there was anything before "all eternity," it wouldn't be "ALL eternity."

[Pastor_Chick]

See what you make of this EGW piece from 1906.

I will reserve my comments for later.

[Pastor_Chick]

See what you make of this EGW piece from 1906.

I will reserve my comments for later.

[John317]

...You will notice a strike-out of "is Christ" in the following line:

"The Spirit the Comforter whom Christ promised to send after he ascended to heaven (is Christ) is the Spirit in all the fullness of the God head making manifest to the all who receive him and believe in him"

What was actually published is this.

Originally Posted By: EGW

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour." (Special Testimonies Series B No.7, page 62 1906)

This manuscript is dated 1906 -- well into the last part of your proposed period of progression from EGW's earlier Godhead belief to a Trinity doctrine. I find it revealing that her first thought was "The Spirit...is Christ." This would not be characteristic of a person who had left error behind and embraced truth.

Ellen White made the change herself. Obviously she didn't intend to write what she marked out. It is like a misspoken word.

We don't do her a favor when we take what she marked out as if she had kept it. She plainly saw that her original writing was not what she intended to say. When people mark things out and make a correction, it is because what they at first said was a mistake. It did not express what she meant, and that is why she changed it.

Of course there is a sense in which the Holy Spirit is Christ, since the Holy Spirit is the personal representative of Christ. That is why the Holy Spirit's presence is to be received as Christ's presence. Yet the Holy Spirit and Christ are two distinct persons. Christ is actually in the Heavenly Sanctuary with the Father. But both the Father and Christ are with us and in us in the person of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead.

[John317]

...This manuscript is dated 1906 -- well into the last part of your proposed period of progression from EGW's earlier Godhead belief to a Trinity doctrine. I find it revealing that her first thought was "The Spirit...is Christ." This would not be characteristic of a person who had left error behind and embraced truth.

Your last sentence is unfair to Ellen White. You can't take a "correction" or a misspoken word to express the actual intention or meaning of a writer.

When you do this, you are grasping at straws and are not treating the intention of the writer fairly. That would be like looking at the first draft of Lincoln's Gettysburg Address and claiming he meant to say something different.

The bottom line is that Ellen White's final draft-- NOT the first draft--- says exactly what she intended to say.

[John317]

... the following statement from 1902 substantiates what I have been saying all along and agrees with my observation above.

Originally Posted By: EGW

The line of demarcation between those who serve God and those who serve Him not, is ever to remain distinct. The difference between believers and unbelievers should be as great as the difference between light and darkness. When God's people take the position that they are the temple of the Holy Ghost, Christ Himself abiding within, they will so clearly reveal Him in spirit, words, and actions, that there will be an unmistakable distinction between them and Satan's followers. (2SM 211; SpM 243; 1902)

THE EQUATION:

Holy Ghost living in body temple = Christ Himself abiding within

Since the Holy Spirit is the personal representaive of Christ, we can say that the Holy Spirit is Christ in us and with us. Christ abides in our heart through the Holy Spirit. That is what Jesus was saying in the following verses:

John 14

14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 16: 7-14--

16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.