Will Enemies be in Heaven??

[John317]

God himself won't forget, I hope I have the privilege too!

I believe that the lost, including Lucifer and all those fallen angels, will create a great sense of loss in the heart of God throughout eternity. We have to remember that God loved Lucifer and wanted him to be with Him forever. God gets no pleasure from the death of the wicked.

Of course this has to be balanced with such texts as

Rev. 16:5-- And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

[Gail]

I think we need to think not so much in terms of this earthly existance. When Stephen had his vision of heaven, when John the Revelator and the other prophets had theirs, it just makes me feel from their Biblical accounts that the trials we face on earth will not matter anymore.

Romans 8:18-

Quote:

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

I think of it as even the suffering of what we went through with our enemies.

[Dr. Rich]

RLH, I said already that there will NOT be any enemies to anyone that is found in the kingdom of heaven in heaven! No, Paul and EGW will probably not be there so don't hold your breath in order to get a chance to talk to him unless you are not going to be there either.

If you don't understand my post then just say so, you don't have to make fun of it! What you did NOT understand is that ALL of the Kingdoms of the world will be destroyed. All in the KOH will be united in truth which will not make anyone any enemie of anyone there.

[phkrause]

RLH, I said already that there will NOT be any enemies to anyone that is found in the kingdom of heaven in heaven! No, Paul and EGW will probably not be there so don't hold your breath in order to get a chance to talk to him unless you are not going to be there either.

If you don't understand my post then just say so, you don't have to make fun of it! What you did NOT understand is that ALL of the Kingdoms of the world will be destroyed. All in the KOH will be united in truth which will not make anyone any enemie of anyone there.

Well Dr. Rich I believe your gonna be in for a shock when Paul and EGW invite you over for supper. :)

[JawgeFromJawja]

RLH, I said already that there will NOT be any enemies to anyone that is found in the kingdom of heaven in heaven! No, Paul and EGW will probably not be there so don't hold your breath in order to get a chance to talk to him unless you are not going to be there either.

If you don't understand my post then just say so, you don't have to make fun of it! What you did NOT understand is that ALL of the Kingdoms of the world will be destroyed. All in the KOH will be united in truth which will not make anyone any enemie of anyone there.

God's mercy, Dr. Rich! There is no doubt in this ole Baptist's mind that Mrs. Ellen Gould White will be there. Strangely enough, you will be there, forcefully taken to that wondrous destiny kicking and screaming. And those you presently designate as enemies will be there. All of 'em.

Most of you SDAs have got it all wrong. Most Baptists have it all wrong. Most Christians of any kind, especially the Catholics have it all wrong.

All you have to do is read The Bible. READ it. Cover to cover, cover to cover, cover to cover, cover to cover,cover to cover, cover to cover, cover to cover, over and over again. Pay attention to it as you read, and quit being effectively brain dead when you encounter that wonderful Old Tome that plainly says many wonderful, many good things that you, most SDAs, most Christians simply choose to ignore.

God is good. God is LOVE. God is not only beyond your understanding, God is beyond your capacity to understand.

Agape to all

Especially Dr. Rich - he needs it

Strange as it may seem to you, he deserves it

JawgeFromJawja

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

RLH, I said already that there will NOT be any enemies to anyone that is found in the kingdom of heaven in heaven! No, Paul and EGW will probably not be there so don't hold your breath in order to get a chance to talk to him unless you are not going to be there either.

If you don't understand my post then just say so, you don't have to make fun of it! What you did NOT understand is that ALL of the Kingdoms of the world will be destroyed. All in the KOH will be united in truth which will not make anyone any enemie of anyone there.

Well Dr. Rich I believe your gonna be in for a shock when Paul and EGW invite you over for supper.

Yer right, pkrause. Yer right 72% of the time, and this time you got it right.

Agape

JawgeFromJawja

[JawgeFromJawja]

There are some people that we just cannot get along with. God says he will wipe away all tears but when we see someone that we consider an enemy in Heaven, will there be any thought or remembrence of that person? Will we be friends now?

God says all tears. And you will have all your memories in Heaven. If you did not, you would not be you. You would be some sort of incomplete clone, or even worse something like a zombie.

Agape (Ugh ahppy)

JawgeFromJawja

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: John317

But the point is, of course, that everyone saved in God's kingdom will be forgiven and will have forgiven their "enemies."

I'm inclined to believe that the 1000 years is more than just a clinical examination of the books in heaven. I believe it's a time for our healing from past hurts, understanding and growth in appreciation of the justice and character of God.

There will be, i am sure, people who we do not expect to be there. An abusive father perhaps. Of course our enemies will be in heaven. When the Bible says "God will wipe away tears" it will be, to my mind, over a period of months, years, perhaps centuries.

We shall all be changed but we will not become emotionless automatons. Memories will of course fade but I hope I will never forget those close to me who didn't make it to the kingdom.

Lazarus,you are so right! You are closer to the truth than anybody else posting on this topic (except me! )

Agape

JawgeFromJawja

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

In heaven our sorrow will be turned to joy. Remembering doesn't necessarily have to include sorrow.

I don't think that Jesus' call to total commitment is applicable here. Those who are in heaven are evidently totally committed to Him. The closer we drawn to God the closer we are drawn to humanity. What is the "work of the Lord"?. Is it not to seek and to save that which was lost? Our sensitivity toward lost humanity increases as we draw closer to Jesus.

Jesus was not telling the man that is not important to bury his father, he was simply saying that the Kingdom of God should be our top priority.

It's like a mother who has been through the tribulation of childbirth. The joy of her new child consumes the pain of labor. Remembering a lost father does not have to be a tribulation.

God himself won't forget, I hope I have the privilege too!

[/quote']

Lazarus, not to worry. We are assured of memory. Of everything. Probably no one on this board would disagree that God, being transcendent in time and space, will remember everything. But look:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Wow!

JawgeFromJawja

[JawgeFromJawja]

If I saw my enemies in Heaven, I would rejoice! For a person to come to Christ means that s/he's had to come to the Cross and be broken. Just knowing that would be good enough for me.

I remember Scripture which tells us what our attitude is to be toward our enemies. To follow our Lord in that would take a miracle and a sacrifice of ours, to be sure. But after Jesus comes, what do our differences mean anymore? God has promised that "they will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain" Isaiah 11:9; 65:25

There will be nothing to fear any more once Jesus comes

Awesome promises!

Gail! There is nothing in your message except that awful sounding word ugh ahppy! Beautiful!

JawgeFromJawja

[Parade Orange]

i have people in my life that i dont know well but i do know they bristle when they see me and wont talk to me

and they love JESUS

and i know we are all at different steps in our journey so i wonder too

i believe the first thousand years we will see and judge the wicked but also see each others lives played out in ful- a way to walk in each others shoes

our sins are under the blood and blotted out on the records but u can still see them on this side of the judgement

JESUS said all will be revealed

what is spoken in secret will be shouted on the rooftop words are proclaimed by JESUS

all will be seen

every question answered

STEPHEN will see both good and bad in pauls life that drove him to do that to STEPHEN

is a good example

its not like we see a continuouse whiting out on the record of our lives so no one can figure out what exactly u said to another person about them that was sinful

we sin constantly

so everyone looks at your record and sees a blur! lol

we all will see each other

the wiping of the tears happens during the books opened

the wiping of the tears happen at the execution

the wiping of the tears happen also after seeing JESUS DIE FOR US at the judgement

lets take something like a friend who u love and u believe loves u 2

u die while your friend still dont trust or love JESUS

then your friend finds JESUS and dies

u both in heaven and u find out while your friend was being your best buddie he or she was taking money from your company or gossipping behind your back judging u

or sleeping with your sister

your sis husband was unjustly angry at u and u didnt know why before u died

u inadvertedly provided your summer cabin for the illicit love affair

u find out your company is losing money and u fire a few employees

before u die

u walk into a church social and a few give u the cold shoulder and u just shrug

cause of the gossip your friend spread about u

then u die unexpectedly in JESUS arms

now in the thousand years u pour over things and u see the cause and affect of your choices and your friends choices

u see where the money went that u had to take livlyhoods away from your employees

and some of them get jobs and others flounder and moving in on family ot turning to crime or drugs[whicjh of course isnot your fault or sin] [do i really have to clarify this????]

u see after your death your sister exhusband blames u and has to work it out in thearapy or whatever

u see after your death others whisperings at your funeral of possibly being lost ect

u see your friend not righting the wrongs or not nearly good enough to negate the damages by the time of their deaths

our life as ripples of good and evil lasts generations possibly

think of your family sins repeated generation after generation

it all be in the records

we will see why such n such happened in all generations in all nations

it just wont be the wicked exposed

we all are and were wicked in our dealings

getting saved doesnt take away hiow others were profoundly affectted by our words or actions

all the mistakes we made with our children

the lil white lies at the office to protect your rear

the gossip

or purchasing of vanities that could have gone to the GOSPEL

its all under the BLOOD AND FORGIVEN AND BLOTTED OUT

but things we do affect others choices in their lives and they are held accountabvle as such to them

everything will be seen by all

some of the people outside of the NEW CITY at JUDGEMENT are there cause of what they saw u did or not did and decided to reject the HOLY SPIRIT not realizing u were not perfect like they thought u should be

[phkrause]

Yer right, pkrause. Yer right 72% of the time, and this time you got it right.

Agape

JawgeFromJawja

Only 72% of the time? I guess that's better than 71%. :)

[phkrause]

Great post Parade.

[Dr. Rich]

PO and PK, what I see in this thread is that the majority believe that the majority will make it to heaven.

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord,; will enter the Kinngdom of Heaven; but [only] he who does the will (obeys the words) of My Father who is in heaven."

And of course Rev. 14:5 and 21:8 and 22:15 cut that number way down to include only those who are blameless and have no lie in their mouths and do not believe in a lie.

I also find it interesting that Luke wrote about the two times when people were foregiven when they didn't ask to be foregiven. Now what type of a justice system would that be if that was true?

Question: Will God forgive you if you do not repent and ask for forgivness?

[Parade Orange]

ty PK!

i felt i had to do a big song and dance for people to really think about how they are saved or unsaved affects other people in cause of eternity

when i first became a christian as a very young man i became a coleporteur and came across a girl that i hurt/offended from high school

she wasnt nice to me and [of course] and i remember pretending everything is ok to her face

i told myself at seeing her that GOD forgave me so why is she still upset

then it occured to me she dont know me or how ive changed all she knows i hurt her

GOD may have forgiven me but i havent confessed my wrong to her and acknowledges what ive done to her and ask for forgiveness fgrom her

so my sin is forgiven yes blotted out but not to her

in the thousand years if i see her in heaven?

after the thousand years will i her see outside the NEW CITY?

either way we cant pretend i didnt hurt her

it will be acknowledge by GOD

[Bravus]

I'm not sure I agree with the post about Dr Rich and Ellen White. I can understand his position, and agree that it's good that he is clear about it. But I thought the subtext, and the way the alternative was described, was that the only alternative to absolute rejection like his is slavish, utterly literal acceptance with no critical faculties at all allowed. There is a middle ground, and I'm in it, and I'm not there because I'm dishonest or trying to undermine her ministry. I'm taking her word for how her ministry is to be used.

[Bravus]

On the opening question, it made me think of this, from Matthew 5:

"23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."

Makes me think we'd better get on with the business of reconciling with our enemies right here and now if we want to make it up there.

[Gail]

I'm not sure I agree with the post about Dr Rich and Ellen White. I can understand his position, and agree that it's good that he is clear about it. But I thought the subtext, and the way the alternative was described, was that the only alternative to absolute rejection like his is slavish, utterly literal acceptance with no critical faculties at all allowed. There is a middle ground, and I'm in it, and I'm not there because I'm dishonest or trying to undermine her ministry. I'm taking her word for how her ministry is to be used.

[ClubV12]

Here is the difference Bravus, as I see it. Lot's of people wonder, some worry, some seeking for more knowledge on how the Spirit of Prophecy works. How does inspiration work. Thats one group, the majority within the SDA church I would hope.

Another group has been around long enough, studied enough, to come to a conclusion on the matter. Such Dr. Rich, concluding without hesitation Ellen White is a false prophet. Bear in mind, he also thinks Paul and many other New Testament writers were false prophets.

Yet another group are those who, as Ellen White put's it, "fight against" the Spirit of Prophecy. THIS is the most problematic and destructive of all groups. They never miss a chance to question any given quote, make subtle attacks and accusations against the Lords messenger. Suggest things like, you either HAVE to believe 100% in Ellen White or reject her entirely. Obviously this is not a balanced approach as it ignores the first group! Those still coming to grips with her ministry.

At SOME point, the "coming to grips" with the concept of a prophet among us needs to be decided. If you remain in the "I'm not sure" camp for considerable time you WILL evolve into the acceptance or rejection camp. Worse, you may find yourself in the "fighting against" the prophet camp.

Fighting against the Spirit of Prophecy is and should be grounds for disfellowship. As a church officer or Pastor your actions, verbal, written, etc. denigrate the prophet, obstruct her teaching and cause others to do the same cannot be allowed. As a Pastor, I gaurentee you will be "fired" or worse. As a church officer I wouldn't hesitate to bring the matter before the board if it rose to that level. For church discipline, up to and including disfellowship.

It is no light matter to speak of the prophet however YOU personally deem appropriate. If your not sure of your convictions and have honest questions, ask them. Resolve them, seek the counsel of the brethren on them. Most of what I see HEAR on THIS forum is NOT those who are "wondering" with an honest heart about the prophet. What I see most are open attacks against her credibility.

The bible speaks about those who would ridicule God's messengers, which include Ellen White. This is a serious matter. If she is of God, you cannot win this argument. If she is of man, her work will come to nothing. Either way, best to approach it cautiously.

Dr. Rich is not a problem, we all know where he stands. Those that make subtle attacks are FAR more effective in disparaging and discouraging those who are not sure where they stand. Far more dangerous. I DO like to "push buttons" of those who make such attacks, claiming on the one hand to "believe" and on the other "to express extreme doubt". Get in, get out or STOP the fighting against, but DO something, make a decision!

[Guest]

THANK YOU BRAVUS!!! The best answer straight from the BIBLE!! We must have a willingness to forgive even if they dont want to admit their faults..and just move on with our lives with a peace of mind that we did our part and pray for our enemies. Great answer!

[JawgeFromJawja]

PO and PK, what I see in this thread is that the majority believe that the majority will make it to heaven.

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord,; will enter the Kinngdom of Heaven; but [only] he who does the will (obeys the words) of My Father who is in heaven."

And of course Rev. 14:5 and 21:8 and 22:15 cut that number way down to include only those who are blameless and have no lie in their mouths and do not believe in a lie.

I also find it interesting that Luke wrote about the two times when people were foregiven when they didn't ask to be foregiven. Now what type of a justice system would that be if that was true?

Question: Will God forgive you if you do not repent and ask for forgivness?

Dr. Rich, first a request. I promptly lost your web site address. Mea culpa. Would you please send it to me in a Private Mailing (PM) on this site, and also as an open post if you like?

Then a question. In Rev. 14: 5, 21: 8, and 22:15, how do you get those who believe a lie to be among those excluded from salvation? Even if they were deceived, and honestly believed the lie in question?

Best regards,

JawgeFromJawja

[Dr. Rich]

I'm not sure I agree with the post about Dr Rich and Ellen White. I can understand his position, and agree that it's good that he is clear about it. But I thought the subtext, and the way the alternative was described, was that the only alternative to absolute rejection like his is slavish, utterly literal acceptance with no critical faculties at all allowed. There is a middle ground, and I'm in it, and I'm not there because I'm dishonest or trying to undermine her ministry. I'm taking her word for how her ministry is to be used.

Is this like a fence sitter? Or more like lukewarm to be spit out of the mouth?

[Dr. Rich]

Here is the difference Bravus, as I see it. Lot's of people wonder, some worry, some seeking for more knowledge on how the Spirit of Prophecy works. How does inspiration work. Thats one group, the majority within the SDA church I would hope.

Another group has been around long enough, studied enough, to come to a conclusion on the matter. Such Dr. Rich, concluding without hesitation Ellen White is a false prophet. Bear in mind, he also thinks Paul and many other New Testament writers were false prophets.

Yet another group are those who, as Ellen White put's it, "fight against" the Spirit of Prophecy. THIS is the most problematic and destructive of all groups. They never miss a chance to question any given quote, make subtle attacks and accusations against the Lords messenger. Suggest things like, you either HAVE to believe 100% in Ellen White or reject her entirely. Obviously this is not a balanced approach as it ignores the first group! Those still coming to grips with her ministry.

At SOME point, the "coming to grips" with the concept of a prophet among us needs to be decided. If you remain in the "I'm not sure" camp for considerable time you WILL evolve into the acceptance or rejection camp. Worse, you may find yourself in the "fighting against" the prophet camp.

Fighting against the Spirit of Prophecy is and should be grounds for disfellowship. As a church officer or Pastor your actions, verbal, written, etc. denigrate the prophet, obstruct her teaching and cause others to do the same cannot be allowed. As a Pastor, I gaurentee you will be "fired" or worse. As a church officer I wouldn't hesitate to bring the matter before the board if it rose to that level. For church discipline, up to and including disfellowship.

It is no light matter to speak of the prophet however YOU personally deem appropriate. If your not sure of your convictions and have honest questions, ask them. Resolve them, seek the counsel of the brethren on them. Most of what I see HEAR on THIS forum is NOT those who are "wondering" with an honest heart about the prophet. What I see most are open attacks against her credibility.

The bible speaks about those who would ridicule God's messengers, which include Ellen White. This is a serious matter. If she is of God, you cannot win this argument. If she is of man, her work will come to nothing. Either way, best to approach it cautiously.

Dr. Rich is not a problem, we all know where he stands. Those that make subtle attacks are FAR more effective in disparaging and discouraging those who are not sure where they stand. Far more dangerous. I DO like to "push buttons" of those who make such attacks, claiming on the one hand to "believe" and on the other "to express extreme doubt". Get in, get out or STOP the fighting against, but DO something, make a decision!

So you would punish without a trial club? Seems to me, after researching the history of the Adventist church, that you are against how the forefathers would have acted. Perhaps you are too 'new' to understand that the Adventist church was formed by people who left other denominations because Adventists were learning NEW things and accepted EVERYONE'S 'brief' to study to see if it would agree with scripture, or not.

Of course things changed in 1888 and those who were made the political leaders were now endorsed to produce cookie cutter cookies, by altering their study from the bible to EGW's words.

I say let's put everything, every issue and every point of controversey to a trial. Let's find a jury without bias and use rules of law and evidence to find the truth in regards to the facts, not just blind faith.

After all, don't we all agree that truth is important?

[ClubV12]

Are you planning on leaving the Seventh-day Adventist church anytime soon Dr. Rich?

Because your certainly no SDA, not even close.

[phkrause]

PO and PK, what I see in this thread is that the majority believe that the majority will make it to heaven

I kinda disagree with you on this point Dr. Rich.