Dr. Rich Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich PO and PK, what I see in this thread is that the majority believe that the majority will make it to heaven I kinda disagree with you on this point Dr. Rich. What I meant is the majority who say they are Christians or even Adventists, not from everyone in the world. Here is the thing, 144,000 are just a small percentage of the membership of Adventists and a smaller percent of the total of all Christians, and a smaller percent in regards to Christians and Catholics, and a smaller in regards to Christians, Catholics and Jews. Would you agree with this? Of course the 144,000 are onlky the first fruits, as the bride from all denominations and religions who join the KOH during the time of trouble will (I hope) be MUCH larger than this. Quote
ClubV12 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 The 144,000 will lead a "great multitude" into the very last events. There will be far more than just the 144,000 alive when Jesus comes again. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 15, 2011 Moderators Posted July 15, 2011 .... I'm taking her word for how her ministry is to be used. Quote: When you find men questioning the testimonies, finding fault with them, and seeking to draw away the people from their influence, be assured that God is not at work through them. It is another spirit. Doubt and unbelief are cherished by those who do not walk circumspectly. They have a painful consciousness that their life will not abide the test of the Spirit of God, whether speaking through His Word or through the testimonies of His Spirit that would bring them to His Word. Instead of beginning with their own hearts, and coming into harmony with the pure principles of the gospel, they find fault, and condemn the very means that God has chosen to fit up a people to stand in the day of the Lord. {1SM 45.1} My Saviour declared me to be His messenger. "Your work," He instructed me, "is to bear My word. Strange things will arise, and in your youth I set you apart to bear the message to the erring ones, to carry the word before unbelievers, and with pen and voice to reprove from the Word actions that are not right. Exhort from the Word. I will make My Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language. In the true eloquence of simplicity, with voice and pen, the messages that I give shall be heard from one who has never learned in the schools. My Spirit and My power shall be with you. {1SM 32.2} "Be not afraid of man, for My shield shall protect you. It is not you that speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof. Never deviate from the truth under any circumstances. Give the light I shall give you. The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil." {1SM 32.3} Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 15, 2011 Moderators Posted July 15, 2011 PO and PK, what I see in this thread is that the majority believe that the majority will make it to heaven. On the contrary, Dr. Rich, it's the minority who will be saved. The vast majority of those who've been born will be lost. Ellen White also said that the majority of the SDA church will eventually go out, but their places will be taken by people who hear the message for the first time and gladly accept it shortly before the end of human probation. That is also what we find in Christ's letter to the Laodicean church. Rev. 3: 14ff. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 The 144,000 will lead a "great multitude" into the very last events. There will be far more than just the 144,000 alive when Jesus comes again. True! Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich PO and PK, what I see in this thread is that the majority believe that the majority will make it to heaven. On the contrary, Dr. Rich, it's the minority who will be saved. The vast majority of those who've been born will be lost. Ellen White also said that the majority of the SDA church will eventually go out, but their places will be taken by people who hear the message for the first time and gladly accept it shortly before the end of human probation. That is also what we find in Christ's letter to the Laodicean church. Rev. 3: 14ff. John, when was the last time you heard of a funeral where the preacher said that the dead guy was now in hell? Look, the whole world mistakenly belief that one goes to heaven as soon as they die. Where do they get this nonsense from? Well, they get it from Paul's and Luke's words. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 15, 2011 Moderators Posted July 15, 2011 ... Look, the whole world mistakenly belief that one goes to heaven as soon as they die. Where do they get this nonsense from? Well, they get it from Paul's and Luke's words. Yes, many people get it wrongly from Paul's letters and from Luke's Gospel, but you must realize that those writers do not teach such false doctrines. Actually, the people who believe the Bible teaches that the dead go straight to their rewards would tell you that they get it from the entire Bible, not merely from Paul or Luke. People who are mistaken in this way will tell you that the Old Testament teaches the immortality of the soul. These people even believe they see such a teaching in the Gospel of John and in the book of Revelation. You can't blame the Gospel or the Revelation for the mistakes of these people. Neither can you blame Paul and the rest of the Bible for their mistaken beliefs. Paul teaches that the dead sleep in their graves until Christ awakens them at the second coming. See 1 Cor. 15: 18. Here Paul says that if there's no resurrection, the dead have utterly perished. He wouldn't say this if the dead go straight to their rewards. So Paul taught the necessity of the resurrection of the dead. He did not teach the immortality of the soul. The apostle Paul makes this even plainer in 2 Thess. 4: 17, where he writes under inspiration that the resurrection of the righteous dead at the second coming is how we will always be with the Lord. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Didn't Paul say to be absent from this world would be present with the Lord? Didn't Luke present the thief on the cross as being with the Lord as soon as he died? (why didn't the eyewitnesses say that one thief did what Luke said--as all of the eyewitnesses have both thieves cursing Jesus until Jesus died?) And yes John you can choose your side of the argument in Paul's words as Paul admitted he would be anything (a Jew or Genitle) just to get people to believe his gospel. That is why there are so many different denominatios today! Do you believe that there will be people in heaven who believe in a lie? Quote
ClubV12 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 The reason for all the various denominations is because people like you, Dr. Rich, create some new idea for interpreting the bible all by themselves and on their own. What makes you theology any different than many other denominations that have their own personal view on interpreting scripture. Why should I believe you anymore than anybody else who post their ideas of scripture and salvation on this web site. Or any other web site, or church. What makes YOU so special, like only you have the truth? I'll tell you what makes SDA's different, a prophetess to verify the correct interpretation. So you and only you have the Holy Spirit to guide you? Everyone says that, I'm sure you'll agree most everyone is wrong. I think your wrong and a bunch of other folks. What do you got that makes you, or anyone else, different? Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 The reason for all the various denominations is because people like you, Dr. Rich, create some new idea for interpreting the bible all by themselves and on their own. What makes you theology any different than many other denominations that have their own personal view on interpreting scripture. Why should I believe you anymore than anybody else who post their ideas of scripture and salvation on this web site. Or any other web site, or church. What makes YOU so special, like only you have the truth? I'll tell you what makes SDA's different, a prophetess to verify the correct interpretation. So you and only you have the Holy Spirit to guide you? Everyone says that, I'm sure you'll agree most everyone is wrong. I think your wrong and a bunch of other folks. What do you got that makes you, or anyone else, different? What IF I told you that God gave me visions too and dreams and talked to me and gave me instruction to teach the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven just as Jesus taught it? This may or may not be true as far as you know--right? Well then, how would you know? What test would you use to test my words with? Huh? What is the ONE standard to test my words with ClubV12? Some of you wrote that I have been honest--right? Well then, suppose I would tell you that I too have actually had a vision (yes a real vision) and have actually had many dreams? Huh? In fact, my last dream was an answer to prayer. Quote
Members phkrause Posted July 15, 2011 Members Posted July 15, 2011 The reason for all the various denominations is because people like you, Dr. Rich, create some new idea for interpreting the bible all by themselves and on their own. What makes you theology any different than many other denominations that have their own personal view on interpreting scripture. Why should I believe you anymore than anybody else who post their ideas of scripture and salvation on this web site. Or any other web site, or church. What makes YOU so special, like only you have the truth? I'll tell you what makes SDA's different, a prophetess to verify the correct interpretation. So you and only you have the Holy Spirit to guide you? Everyone says that, I'm sure you'll agree most everyone is wrong. I think your wrong and a bunch of other folks. What do you got that makes you, or anyone else, different? Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Members phkrause Posted July 15, 2011 Members Posted July 15, 2011 What IF I told you that God gave me visions too and dreams and talked to me and gave me instruction to teach the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven just as Jesus taught it? This may or may not be true as far as you know--right? Well then, how would you know? What test would you use to test my words with? Huh? What is the ONE standard to test my words with ClubV12? Some of you wrote that I have been honest--right? Well then, suppose I would tell you that I too have actually had a vision (yes a real vision) and have actually had many dreams? Huh? In fact, my last dream was an answer to prayer. The test would be to see how it compares with the Bible. And at this point from what I've read it fails. Sorry but that's the way I read it. When its been indicated that your honest, this doesn't mean that we agree with your interpretation of the Bible. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Dr. Rich Posted July 16, 2011 Posted July 16, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich What IF I told you that God gave me visions too and dreams and talked to me and gave me instruction to teach the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven just as Jesus taught it? This may or may not be true as far as you know--right? Well then, how would you know? What test would you use to test my words with? Huh? What is the ONE standard to test my words with ClubV12? Some of you wrote that I have been honest--right? Well then, suppose I would tell you that I too have actually had a vision (yes a real vision) and have actually had many dreams? Huh? In fact, my last dream was an answer to prayer. The test would be to see how it compares with the Bible. And at this point from what I've read it fails. Sorry but that's the way I read it. When its been indicated that your honest, this doesn't mean that we agree with your interpretation of the Bible. BZZZZT Wrong PK! Using the bible for the test is why everyone is so darn confused right now. Paul lied for the Jews and for the Gentiles so both would be confused. The only true TEST is the one Jesus gave to us as found in John 14:26 and 17:17-20. If you don't believe in what Jesus said in these verses then I suppose you can believe in what every you want to believe in, as do most people who call themselves a christian. As I have done many times before, I dare you PK, to show that the words of Jesus Christ are wrong in any way! If you think that you need more information than what Jesus gave to us thru His eyewitnesses, please show me now what that 'important' information is! What I teach is the same thing that Jesus taught, all I do is 'parrot' His words. Nothing more and nothing less! Anyone who refuses to abide by the words of Jesus because of their own choice is an enemy of the truth, and therefore an enemy of mine. I hate evil and the world religions are full of evil lies. Jesus cleaned out His Father's temple because of the evil that was there. No one who is evil (sinner) will be allowed in the Kingdom of Heaven. Quote
ClubV12 Posted July 16, 2011 Posted July 16, 2011 I think I heard a fiery Baptist preacher do that very same sermon, Dr. Rich. Fire, brimstone and all. :) Quote
Members phkrause Posted July 16, 2011 Members Posted July 16, 2011 BZZZZT Wrong PK! Using the bible for the test is why everyone is so darn confused right now. Paul lied for the Jews and for the Gentiles so both would be confused. The only true TEST is the one Jesus gave to us as found in John 14:26 and 17:17-20. If you don't believe in what Jesus said in these verses then I suppose you can believe in what every you want to believe in, as do most people who call themselves a christian. As I have done many times before, I dare you PK, to show that the words of Jesus Christ are wrong in any way! If you think that you need more information than what Jesus gave to us thru His eyewitnesses, please show me now what that 'important' information is! What I teach is the same thing that Jesus taught, all I do is 'parrot' His words. Nothing more and nothing less! Anyone who refuses to abide by the words of Jesus because of their own choice is an enemy of the truth, and therefore an enemy of mine. I hate evil and the world religions are full of evil lies. Jesus cleaned out His Father's temple because of the evil that was there. No one who is evil (sinner) will be allowed in the Kingdom of Heaven. Dr. Rich, first let me say good Sabbath. No one said that what Jesus said was wrong! Its your interpretation of what he and Paul, and the rest of the Apostles had to say that I have a question with. And it seems I'm not the only one. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Dr. Rich Posted July 16, 2011 Posted July 16, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich BZZZZT Wrong PK! Using the bible for the test is why everyone is so darn confused right now. Paul lied for the Jews and for the Gentiles so both would be confused. The only true TEST is the one Jesus gave to us as found in John 14:26 and 17:17-20. If you don't believe in what Jesus said in these verses then I suppose you can believe in what every you want to believe in, as do most people who call themselves a christian. As I have done many times before, I dare you PK, to show that the words of Jesus Christ are wrong in any way! If you think that you need more information than what Jesus gave to us thru His eyewitnesses, please show me now what that 'important' information is! What I teach is the same thing that Jesus taught, all I do is 'parrot' His words. Nothing more and nothing less! Anyone who refuses to abide by the words of Jesus because of their own choice is an enemy of the truth, and therefore an enemy of mine. I hate evil and the world religions are full of evil lies. Jesus cleaned out His Father's temple because of the evil that was there. No one who is evil (sinner) will be allowed in the Kingdom of Heaven. Dr. Rich, first let me say good Sabbath. No one said that what Jesus said was wrong! Its your interpretation of what he and Paul, and the rest of the Apostles had to say that I have a question with. And it seems I'm not the only one. Thanks, Happy Sabbath back to ya! So, if you don't find anything wrong with the testimony (Spirit of Prophecy) of Jesus, it being the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses, then just what is the problem you have with me following the counsel of Jesus in Matthew 7:24-27? Since you must agree that you don't need anyone's words other than Jesus, why use them? Quote
Tallmark Posted July 16, 2011 Posted July 16, 2011 I was shocked, confused, bewildered as I entered Heaven's door, Not by the beauty of it all, Nor the lights or its decor. But it was the folks in Heaven who made me sputter and gasp...... the thieves, the liars, the sinners, the alcoholics, the trash. There stood the kid from seventh grade who swiped my lunch money twice. Next to him was my old neighbor who never said anything nice. Herb, who I always thought would go up in smoke in hell, was sitting pretty on cloud nine, looking incredibly well. I nudged Jesus, "What's the deal? I would love to hear your take. How'd all these sinners get up here? You must've made a mistake." "And why's everyone so quiet and so somber, Can you give me a clue?" "Hush, child," said He, "They're all in shock. No one thought they'd be seeing you!" Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 16, 2011 Posted July 16, 2011 Tallmark, try Rev. 21:8 and 22:15 for the real truth. Quote
Parade Orange Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 amen TALLMARK ! AMEN AMEN AMEN GODS GRACE IN YOUR FACE! Quote All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness.
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich PO and PK, what I see in this thread is that the majority believe that the majority will make it to heaven. On the contrary, Dr. Rich, it's the minority who will be saved. The vast majority of those who've been born will be lost. Ellen White also said that the majority of the SDA church will eventually go out, but their places will be taken by people who hear the message for the first time and gladly accept it shortly before the end of human probation. That is also what we find in Christ's letter to the Laodicean church. Rev. 3: 14ff. John317, for one who is usually positive in attitude and thinking, you carry a dismal attitude about the number that will eventually be saved. The Bible actually paints an extremely positive picture: an innumerable number will come to salvation, not necessarily of their own "free will". Free will is a temporal gift, operating only while we are on earth. Ultimately, God's will prevails in everything: Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will. There are many passages in both Old and New Testaments revealing that God's will ultimately prevails in everything. It is God's will that all be saved: 1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth. 1Ti 2:5 For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1Ti 2:6 the One having given Himself a ransom on behalf of all, the testimony to be given in its own time, This passage reveals that salvation will be accorded to many, not a few, and that such is God's will: Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: The above passages are only a few of those revealing that God's Love, agape, "ug ahppy", is truly unlimited, and that God's will ultimately prevails for everything. Positive thinking to you, in Christ's Love! JawgeFromJawja Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.)
ClubV12 Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 In your view here Jawge, "salvation will be accorded to many" leaves a few people out, to say the least. So all were talking about here is "how many"? An inumerable host is saved? No problem there, considering the large number of people who ever lived on the planet! Are you suggesting that ALL of them, every person who ever lived will be saved? That doesn't line up with the message as I see it. It is certain that at least some will be lost. So again, all were talking about here is the "number". A better question would be, what must I do to be saved? We have many biblical examples of people who weren't saved, so WE do have a part to play in this. Quote
Lysimachus Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 I think Jesus meant just what He said in Matthew 24 that the last days would be congruous with the days of Noah. And in the days of Noah, only a handful were saved. Matthew 7:14 clearly says that "few" will find the gate to eternal life. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 In your view here Jawge, "salvation will be accorded to many" leaves a few people out, to say the least. So all were talking about here is "how many"? An inumerable host is saved? No problem there, considering the large number of people who ever lived on the planet! Are you suggesting that ALL of them, every person who ever lived will be saved? That doesn't line up with the message as I see it. It is certain that at least some will be lost. So again, all were talking about here is the "number". A better question would be, what must I do to be saved? We have many biblical examples of people who weren't saved, so WE do have a part to play in this. I really did not want to post on the subject of God’s will versus free will, but the topic is recurrent and persistent, and God’s ultimate will is implied whenever we consider the number who will be saved. Unfortunately, the subject is highly emotionally charged, and some seem actually to resent the Biblical fact that "many" will be saved. Their resentment is concealed by their smoke screen disguising it as a claim for justice. 1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us. Clear enough. God chooses us. Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Again, clear enough. But look: Isa 55:11 My word, which comes from my mouth, is like the rain and snow. It will not come back to me without results. It will accomplish whatever I want and achieve whatever I send it to do." Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? God here explicitly says that He will accomplish whatever He wants, and achieve whatever He sends his word to do, without qualification, and none may take issue with his word. So, how about free will? Yes, free will does obtain – in our day to day lives, but not in eternity. Scripture is quite clear on this. There are other passages that reveal the ultimate will of God is for us be saved. Look ‘em up! It is a very worthwhile exercise. How many will be saved? Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Not a few. Many. This is only one of multiple passages indicating that many are to be saved. And since it is the will of God that that we be saved, then how many is many? Figure that out for yourself. Just remember that “Gospel” means “Good News”. And look: 1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. There's God's will again. And how compelling is the will of God? Another passage: 1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. "Specially of those that believe"? The word "specially" does not rule out disbelievers - theirs is a different time of salvation. Should disbelievers have been ruled out, the word "specially" would have been "only", or "but only". Some of the critics of the Biblically verified large number destined to be saved seem to begrudge the generosity of God’s Grace. Theirs is a position of resentment dressed up as a claim of justice. They seem to ask “What is the point of my working so hard and so long if God is going to let in some at the last hour on equal terms? It’s unfair! Jesus parable of the eleventh hour employees is one of my favorites. Job 23:14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. With this verse, so much for ultimate free will. And who cares? Utimately, our God with truly unconditional love, will do what’s best for us. Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.)
Dr. Rich Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 I think Jesus meant just what He said in Matthew 24 that the last days would be congruous with the days of Noah. And in the days of Noah, only a handful were saved. Matthew 7:14 clearly says that "few" will find the gate to eternal life. True! Here is the thing: When Jesus said 144,000 for the first fruits as being the bond servants who are the 'priests' found in Rev. 5:9-10, this is the real number. The 5 foolish and 5 wise are symbols for a split of those IN the KOH who are all right now spiritually sleeping. BUT, the "Multitude which no one could count" who IS the bride as found in Rev. 7:9, is also a symbol for the real amount of these people. The real reason why NO ONE COULD COUNT (even though Jesus does know how many right now and did at the time He gave this to John), is because Jesus didn't want US to know, so that we all have a chance to be among this number without thinking it is too small or large as Jawge mistakenly believes. There are three groups that make it to heaven,(not counting the 24 elders). The Priests which are the first fruits who are the bondservants that get the food from the ONE person found in Matt. 24:45, and the 5 wise brides maids who listen to the 144k and repent and follow after the words of Jesus ONLY. Then the 'bride' who become righteous because of the deeds of the 144k and 5 wise. The 144k and the 5 wise are sealed by God before the time of trouble. The Bride becomes sealed prior to the start of the 38th' month (New moon). After that it is impossible for anyone else to become saved which lasts for another 5 months when the plagues are poured out upon those who take the Mark of the Beast. It is just that simple! And NO, there will NOT be anyone in heaven who is one of your enemies! So Paul and EGW will not be found in heaven. Quote
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lysimachus I think Jesus meant just what He said in Matthew 24 that the last days would be congruous with the days of Noah. And in the days of Noah, only a handful were saved. Matthew 7:14 clearly says that "few" will find the gate to eternal life. And other passages say "many". Man, are you negative! BUT, the "Multitude which no one could count" who IS the bride as found in Rev. 7:9, is also a symbol for the real amount of these people. The real reason why NO ONE COULD COUNT (even though Jesus does know how many right now and did at the time He gave this to John), is because Jesus didn't want US to know, so that we all have a chance to be among this number without thinking it is too small or large as Jawge mistakenly believes. Who but you said Jesus didn't want us to know. And NO, there will NOT be anyone in heaven who is one of your enemies! So Paul and EGW will not be found in heaven. Man, do you have it all wrong and convoluted! You must be trying to sell something. Jawge. Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.)
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